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Synopsis of FINAL EDITS to the SHB & RO1


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Final Edits to SHB & RO1 version 19.7

20 JUN 2014

 

 

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the T/O or spotter. Appropriate additional penalties will be applied if it is not clear.

SHB p.21 (Stage Conventions)

 

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the actions/magazines/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared or opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence, made “safe” and then restaged.

If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO1 for further clarification.

SHB p.23

 

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the T/O or spotter. Appropriate additional penalties will be applied if it is not clear.

No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question.

RO1 p.13 (Stage Conventions)

RO1 Instructor Version p.12 (Stage Conventions)

 

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the actions/magazines/barrels empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is not cleared or opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence, made “safe” and then restaged.

Examples:

A. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no UNFIRED round in the chamberNO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull is ejected or found in the action or chamber Minor Safety Violation. (for the empty round...in addition to the MSV for the action being closed; unless it is determined to have closed because of a "prop failure")

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm — the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.

Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the gun, any penalties that would have been incurred will still be applied.

RO1 p.17

RO1 Instructor Version p.16

 

Minor Safety Penalties

Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired.

Leaving empty or live rounds in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded.

• Not returning revolvers to leather unless otherwise specified.

• Open, empty long guns that slip and fall but do not break 170° safety rule or sweep anyone.

• Retrieving a dropped “dead” round.

• Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange.

RO1 p.24

RO1 Instructor Version p.23

 

Additional notes & references:

 

RANGE OPERATIONS SUMMARY

1. It is expected the Range Officers will have the primary responsibility for observing and resolving all safety-related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas.

The Chief Range Officers will make the final determination of penalties and scores. Due care and diligence by the shooter will be taken into consideration when determining whether or not a penalty is valid, based upon factors such as a range equipment or prop malfunction

5. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use. Whether or not they are available, it is the shooter’s responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the gun. If the gun falls or closes, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 p.21

GLOSSARY OF TERMS

Action Closed (lever & pump action long guns) – BOLT in “full battery” e.g. unable to further close by manipulation of the lever or pump mechanism.

Action Closed - (SxS & single-shot firearms) functional firearm that requires manipulation of the opening mechanism (e.g. top/side lever/button)

Action Open (lever & pump action long guns) – BOLT not closed completely.

Action Open(SxS & single-shot firearms) – functional firearm that opens without manipulation of the release mechanism (e.g. top/side lever/button)

RO1 p.29

 

Clarified to remove some confusion...a shooter CAN get 2 MSV's for the action being closed with an empty round remaining (or a live round not in the chamber) unless one or both conditions are remedied before firing the next gun of the stage.

REF: "Minor Safety Penalties" RO1 p.24 (quoted above)

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Thank you for all your efforts and the rest of the ROC's efforts on this Pale Wolf. I see several internal inconsistencies and ambiguities. I have my arguments ready if I get called under these rules. At this point, it is what it is. See you at EOT. I'll buy you a Diet Coke.

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so it must be open, per under MSV?

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Maybe I'm mentally slower than I thought !!!

What I'm reading is one rule says basically if the action closes once it has been discarded but opened and its shown clear at the end of the shooting string its a no call!

Then you read further down and it says if a long gun closes after being discarded and is not opened before the next firearm is fired then its a minor safety ??

 

Maybe I just did not read it correctly ???

 

I'm I right or wrong , PW ????

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Maybe I'm mentally slower than I thought !!!

What I'm reading is one rule says basically if the action closes once it has been discarded but opened and its shown clear at the end of the shooting string its a no call!

Then you read further down and it says if a long gun closes after being discarded and is not opened before the next firearm is fired then its a minor safety ??

 

Maybe I just did not read it correctly ???

 

I'm I right or wrong , PW ????

Correct.

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Maybe I'm mentally slower than I thought !!!

What I'm reading is one rule says basically if the action closes once it has been discarded but opened and its shown clear at the end of the shooting string its a no call!

Then you read further down and it says if a long gun closes after being discarded and is not opened before the next firearm is fired then its a minor safety ??

 

Maybe I just did not read it correctly ???

 

I'm I right or wrong , PW ????

 

Actually Slick, I think you are Right and Right.....because both rules stated what you posted.

 

Good luck at EOT and buy PWB another diet Pepsi or diet Coke from me.

 

 

..........Widder

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I do have a question.

 

the words 'pointed safely DOWN RANGE' caught my attention within a couple of those rules.

 

Does that mean that there will be no more Vertical staging of Long Guns?

 

 

..........Widder

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I do have a question.

 

the words 'pointed safely DOWN RANGE' caught my attention within a couple of those rules.

 

Does that mean that there will be no more Vertical staging of Long Guns?

 

 

..........Widder

Widder, I think that that wording was only used in the stage conventions sections. The stage conventions can be overridden by stage instructions and are used as a general guideline when no specific instruction is given.

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I do have a question.

 

the words 'pointed safely DOWN RANGE' caught my attention within a couple of those rules.

 

Does that mean that there will be no more Vertical staging of Long Guns?

 

 

..........Widder

Even when vertically staged the gun should be pointing down range..... Even if it is slightly.

 

Stan

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Smokestack and Stan: thanks.

 

Kinda what I was thinkin but just tooooooo tired to think it all thru.

 

 

..........Widder

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I'll buy you a Diet Coke.

 

 

Good luck at EOT and buy PWB another diet Pepsi or diet Coke from me.

..........Widder

After all this someone ought to buy him something stronger, like Root Beer!

If I were going I'd do it. :)

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Thank you for all your efforts and the rest of the ROC's efforts on this Pale Wolf. I see several internal inconsistencies and ambiguities. I have my arguments ready if I get called under these rules. At this point, it is what it is. See you at EOT. I'll buy you a Diet Coke.

 

so...rewrite it so there are none & send it to me.

next time, the job's all yours.

 

REF: Ricky Nelson "Garden Party"

 

 

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so...rewrite it so there are none & send it to me.

next time, the job's all yours.

 

REF: Ricky Nelson "Garden Party"

 

 

Sent you a PM. Would I get the same lofty compensation that you do? ;)

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Sent you a PM. Would I get the same lofty compensation that you do? ;)

Larsen... We will compensate you by letting you graze the cupcake tree.

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Larsen... We will compensate you by letting you graze the cupcake tree.

My doctor told me I need to stay away from the cupcake tree and the Cheesecake Factory. No more vanilla bean cheesecake for a while.

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A lot of work...effort...pain...as been expended just to eliminate a very rare occurrence...someone purposely closing their long gun after clearing it.

 

wow...

 

Phantom

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I have another headache. I guess what I don't get is if the shooter puts the long gun down, and on the way to the next firearm the TO looks back and notices the lever is closed are we as TO's back to the old rules and notify the shoot the lever is closed? What if the shooter decides to continue on without going back, does the shooter get a MSV or do you go back and have the shooter open the rifle and determine the call then?

PWB and ROC thanks for all you do and I know you were thrown into the middle of this, I guess during the Posse Marshall meeting EOT we can get a verberal clarification.

 

KK

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I'm trying to figure out if we went

2 steps forward and 1 back

 

or

1 step forward and 2 back.

 

5. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use. Whether or not they are available, it is the shooter’s responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the gun. If the gun falls or closes, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 p.21

 

This adds confusion for me (and expected inconsistency). Until then, it appeared that a gun closing as it is discarded due to the side of the prob, etc, could be "excused". But with that latter statement, I guess not.

 

As such, have we changed since 2013 on this issue?

 

Have we only just added words and confusion?

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Let me see if I got this right:

If the gun falls ( did the gun break the 170, did it sweep anyone, was it caused by a prop failure?) award the appropriate safety violation or "no call".

Or closes ( when checked was there an empty shell in the chamber, was there a live round in the chamber, was the chamber empty?) award the appropriate safety violation or "no call".

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After looking at Pale Wolf's clarifications to the synopsis I think I am finally clear. If a long gun is closed or closes you have to open it before firing the next gun. Period. If you don't there is an MSV. If a long gun is closed at the end of the stage you get the MSV for the closed long gun plus an additional MSV if there is an empty in the gun. So, the new rule only saves the shooter from a second MSV if a long gun is closed and is found empty when opened. The only time there would be a no call is if the long gun closed because of prop failure. My head hurts. Is this what most of you are understanding?

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No Larsen,

If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO1 for further clarification.

SHB p.23

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After looking at Pale Wolf's clarifications to the synopsis I think I am finally clear. If a long gun is closed or closes you have to open it before firing the next gun. Period. If you don't there is an MSV. If the long is closed at the end of the stage you get the MSV for the closed long gun plus an additional MSV if there is an empty in the gun. So, the new rule only saves the shooter from a second MSV if a long gun is closed and is found empty when opened. The only time there would be a no call is if the long gun closed because of prop failure. My head hurts. Is this what most of you are understanding?

 

 

 

Yes, this is the way I understand it too. But really we are back to exactly where we were before the "vote" and the only thing that changed was we now have a definition of open and closed as well as a suggestion that nobody but the shooter should touch a closed long gun. Oh and they managed to make the existing rules twice as hard to understand.

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No Larsen,

If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO1 for further clarification.

SHB p.23

In the beginning of that paragraph the MSV was already earned.

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No Larsen,

If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO1 for further clarification.

SHB p.23

If you go back and look at the sections before and after this one the word "additional" is in there. Probably should have in this paragraph too for clarity. You already got an MSV for the closed action you get an additional appropriate penalty if the gun is not clear.

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It seems that folks are making this harder than it needs to be.

 

If a long gun, shotgun or rifle, closes in the process of restaging it after the shooting string it does not need to be reopened before finishing the stage. After the last round of the stage is fired the closed long gun is inspected by the shooter and TO. If empty it is a no call, if it is not empty then a safety violation is awarded.

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It seems that folks are making this harder than it needs to be.

 

If a long gun, shotgun or rifle, closes in the process of restaging it after the shooting string it does not need to be reopened before finishing the stage. After the last round of the stage is fired the closed long gun is inspected by the shooter and TO. If empty it is a no call, if it is not empty then a safety violation is awarded.

Where exactly are you divining this information?

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It seems that folks are making this harder than it needs to be.

 

If a long gun, shotgun or rifle, closes in the process of restaging it after the shooting string it does not need to be reopened before finishing the stage. After the last round of the stage is fired the closed long gun is inspected by the shooter and TO. If empty it is a no call, if it is not empty then a safety violation is awarded.

What do we do with this? Just disregard it?

Minor Safety Penalties

Not leaving a long gun action open at the end of the shooting string or before the next firearm is fired.

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It seems that folks are making this harder than it needs to be.

 

If a long gun, shotgun or rifle, closes in the process of restaging it after the shooting string it does not need to be reopened before finishing the stage. After the last round of the stage is fired the closed long gun is inspected by the shooter and TO. If empty it is a no call, if it is not empty then a safety violation is awarded.

Why bother putting this section in then?

5. A safe and sturdy place should be provided at each stage to position the shooter’s firearms and is mandatory to use. Whether or not they are available, it is the shooter’s responsibility to take reasonable care in putting down the gun. If the gun falls or closes, the Range Officer shall make the determination of fault: either Prop Failure or Safety Violation as appropriate.

RO1 p.21

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"Closed" is defined as "in battery". Seems the Long Gun will need to be physically inspected to verify "closed", as defined. Any visual or physical observation that the long gun is not "in battery" means it is "open". Thus, only a MSV if it is not empty or SDQ if live round in chamber.

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