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Unintended Consequences of Hoarding


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Stopped at a small local gun shop today. The owner called yesterday, to tell me he had found a gun that I had been looking for since last year. He keeps a handwritten list in his shop, and runs through it regularly, especially when a wholesaler is offering him something that he has not seen in awhile. That happened yesterday; he bought the gun, and then called me. Try to get that kind of service in a big box or on-line store.

 

Anyway, I went in today and picked up the gun. His business is struggling, and I was glad to be able to buy something from him. We chatted about why things were so tough. Plain and simple - it's the ammo shortage. As he explains it, with no ammo on the shelves, traffic in his shop is off 80%. Yep - EIGHTY PERCENT. Folks now expect that he has no ammo, and don't bother stopping by. If they don't stop by, they don't buy that pistol or shotgun that they happen to see on the wall while they're looking for ammo. And impulse sales are a BIG part of his business. So his sales are in the hopper. He hasn't seen more than a case (and usually less) at a time of .22s or 9MM since the winter. Today, he has nothing in 9, 38, 45 or 40. And the shop is damned empty.

 

If things do not improve, he will lose this shop - and many more like it will struggle or die. Hoarding of ammo (and components) will cost us the heart and soul of gun retailers. And then where we will we be?

 

Do him (and the rest of us) a favor; if you really don't need that 2nd box of ammo, leave it on the shelf. Give the next guy a chance. And give these small retailers a chance to survive.

 

LL

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Not just an ammo unavailability, but perhaps also a gun unavailability. Say 5-6 years ago, a place like gander mountain in Huntsville Alabama would have 3-4 rifles .357 lever action Marlin, Puma, Henry, or even perhaps Rossi. Now you go into a store like that and your lucky to find a 30-30. Just went into a Pro Bass near Mobile Alabama. Had a Henry 44 magnum a couple of 22's. Next to nothing in the way of lever actions.

 

I know Marlin had a relocation gig happening but where's all of these other 357 lever guns. Are you guys wearing them out by the week so you have to each own ten of them. I feel like I missed my chance because I'm kind of Marlin fan. Wasn't really looking at a $1500.00 Win 1873 super star action job.

 

I may just have a local shop order me a Rossi and hope they send a good one and also hope it doesn't take a year. Someone said it was the government causing shortages.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

Let's talk 'bout the "intended consequences of not hoarding (or "stockpiling", if you will)...

 

I would rather have 'em... and not need 'em...

 

As opposed to...

 

Needin' 'em... and not havin' em.

 

~~~~

 

Just an aside... somethin' sinister is goin' on... somethin' besides folks hoardin'. Don't know what it is... and ain't gonna speculate...

 

But folks ain't been hoardin' since December... with ammo-rations "limits"... goin' out from every store that you can think of. Think 'bout it.

 

Don't ask me...

 

This should have been over... BY NOW.

 

ts

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In the end this is all related to the nature of the new business model where smaller shops are being suppressed by larger/more dominant on-line sellers.

You can still find almost any gun you want. But it will be online. You wont be able to touch and feel it. But it is still there.

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Guest jeweler jim

Got what I need and want, but...

Received a thirty dollar gift certificate from the local Farm & Fleet for Christmas and really there ain't much I'd be looking for from them beyond ammo. So every time I drive by I stop to see if'n they got ANYTHING in stock (shoot most all calibers). Find the same thing every time which is the empty shelves with the sign "Do to the extreme demand we are limiting our customers to three boxes of ammunition each." Three boxes of what? The shelves are always empty. Never been lucky enough to be there when they might be stocking whatever they get in.

Guess one of these trips I might have to break down and buy some trail mix or jeans or something before it turns into next Christmas. Know some others who have some kind of app on their phones that tells them when the delivery is made to Wally World and they go get in line (also limited to three boxes). Thinking some of these guys are buying just out of panic and/or greed.

Thank god for my fifty year old single stage Rock Chucker!

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Good post, Loophole. I have said for a long time that we gun owners are sometimes our own worst enemy.

 

Stockpiling is never a good answer.

 

Sorry. Stockpiling is ALWAYS a good answer.

 

Whenever we have a hurricane coming anywhere near, there is a big rush at the store. People buy bread and milk and batteries and candles.. I never go to the store when that's happening. I don't need to. I've got gas and food and candles and a coleman stove and everything else I need. Why? I stockpile.

 

I know people that, if they don't stop at the store on the way home from work they don't have food for supper or breakfast. I go to the store, maybe, once a month. I always have food in the house. Why? I stockpile.

 

I have not bought a thing, firearms related, during this latest "scare/crisis/shortage". I have not even TRIED to buy anything. I haven't needed to. Why? I stockpile.

 

I'm still ;shooting 98 cent 22s. Why? I stockpile.

 

When the dam breaks, and you rush down to the store to buy a thousand sandbags to keep your house from being flooded - that's not stockpiling. That's panic buying. Stockpiling is buying a dozen sandbags a month for the last five years, so you HAVE the things when you need 'em, and don't HAVE to panic.

 

Stockpiling is ALWAYS a good answer.

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life
  •  

    Sorry. Stockpiling is ALWAYS a good answer.

     

    Whenever we have a hurricane coming anywhere near, there is a big rush at the store. People buy bread and milk and batteries and candles.. I never go to the store when that's happening. I don't need to. I've got gas and food and candles and a coleman stove and everything else I need. Why? I stockpile.

     

    I know people that, if they don't stop at the store on the way home from work they don't have food for supper or breakfast. I go to the store, maybe, once a month. I always have food in the house. Why? I stockpile.

     

    I have not bought a thing, firearms related, during this latest "scare/crisis/shortage". I have not even TRIED to buy anything. I haven't needed to. Why? I stockpile.

     

    I'm still ;shooting 98 cent 22s. Why? I stockpile.

     

    When the dam breaks, and you rush down to the store to buy a thousand sandbags to keep your house from being flooded - that's not stockpiling. That's panic buying. Stockpiling is buying a dozen sandbags a month for the last five years, so you HAVE the things when you need 'em, and don't HAVE to panic.

     

    Stockpiling is ALWAYS a good answer.

     

 

I am not sure anybody has ever agreed with me for a million years... other than Uturn... but I always thought he did it, reluctantly.

 

THANKS... nobody much likes me nomore... but you have always been fair. Ya know... Ali Mo... heretofore... has always been fair.

 

Thanks again... sometimes... my mind misleads me into thinkin' wrong... but I believe that lately, I have BEEN THINKIN' RIGHT.

 

Love ya, buddy... hope to meet you, one fine day.

 

ts

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

dammit... Ali Mo... that was a term of affection... Alpo is OK....

 

C'mon... talk to BlackHeart... he understands me....

 

This late... goodness gracious alive... can't hardly sit down... whilst lookin' at yore avatar... but don't let Willie's problems... get in the way of my problems. hehehe

 

ts

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I agree that stockpiling is a good option when supply becomes a concern.

What I do not understand is any gunshop that will sell all fo tis ammo. It is much easier to sell a .22 rifle if it comes with a brick of ammo or a rifle/shotgun that comes with two boxes of shells. I would expect that shop to mark up the price accordingly.

It is not business as usual times these days.

I agree that something else (and possibly sinister) is going on here. A single machine making .22LR swill run at about 800 rounds a minute. In a month, that machine would make 520,000 rounds of ammo. That number is only based on one shift/day and a 40-hr week; all that I am hearing says that the ammo makers are running overtime plus. I can warrant that Federal, Winchesters, CCI, Remington and others own much more than one .22LR machine in each facility/

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The current regime in Washington is buying all of the ammo that is currently made. They are storing it in abandoned missile silos all over the U.S. The missiles were sold to N. Korea, Indonesia, Iraq, Cuba and Java........just to name a few. :o

 

Seriously though, in todays newspaper there were no less than 22 ads selling ammo for insane prices and 32 ads selling firearms. It's American free enterprise at it's worst or best.....depending on your view. I personally detest the rapists/gougers. After seeing what some gun stores did after Sandy Hook.......I'll NEVER return to their store. Not saying the store in this thread did that, just saying.

 

CS

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

I am gonna back in... sideways... to tellin' ya some unaldulterated somethin'... that you best get yore friggin arms wrapped around... and yore brains.

 

ALL OF YA...

 

And I got no reason to inform ya... other... than I love a lot of folks on this site.

 

Grab food... 3 months minimum for one individual... ability to get PURE water.. 1 minimum gallons a day... per individual.

 

Ammo...

 

You know the drill...

 

Sorry I disappointed you Ali Mo... maybe see you in the afterlife. If you can't do it... as a LIFE member... maybe... I can request it. Take care.

 

Good Bye...

 

ts

 

 

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Guest Tennessee Stud, SASS# 43634 Life

Hope this is my last post... if Misty Moonshine takes my case....

 

After contactin'... the great Misty...

 

Got nothin' else to prove....

 

But...

 

Got a doctor that comes to my home... and takes cash... got these precious black folks... who live off my land...

 

And the doctor says to me... "you may have a sepsis problem with your eye"... dam...

 

It just further acknowledges that God... has abandoned me. And ya know... that has been the way of my life. Don't hate anybody... love... Wolf Windwalker... Gunner Gatlin... and Rolan Kraps...

 

I hate... me... and the way I have always been.

 

To the rest of ya... sure hope this is the last post of my life here...

 

Good bye....

 

ts

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dammit... Ali Mo... that was a term of affection... Alpo is OK....

 

C'mon... talk to BlackHeart... he understands me....

 

This late... goodness gracious alive... can't hardly sit down... whilst lookin' at yore avatar... but don't let Willie's problems... get in the way of my problems. hehehe

 

ts

Gar an darn to ya she loves ya more than me :D God bless ya man ;)

 

GG

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Hope this is my last post... if Misty Moonshine takes my case....

 

After contactin'... the great Misty...

 

Got nothin' else to prove....

 

But...

 

Got a doctor that comes to my home... and takes cash... got these precious black folks... who live off my land...

 

And the doctor says to me... "you may have a sepsis problem with your eye"... dam...

 

It just further acknowledges that God... has abandoned me. And ya know... that has been the way of my life. Don't hate anybody... love... Wolf Windwalker... Gunner Gatlin... and Rolan Kraps...

 

I hate... me... and the way I have always been.

 

To the rest of ya... sure hope this is the last post of my life here...

 

Good bye....

 

ts

Ne'er met ya....reckon I'd be happy to do so sometime.

 

GG

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Basic economics 101, Law of supply and demand.

If your a seller and ya got something that is in short supply you set the price. Not the buyer.

 

If a store has 100 boxes of ammo today, am I a bad guy for buying 10 boxes or am I a bad guy if I buy the last 10 boxes?

 

Moreover if a year before the shortage began, I bought large numbers and the store had a much larger number I would not be bad guy would I?

 

The people should realize that shortages change the model from "just in time" to "get em when you can".

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I'll tell you, hacker. I drink this particular brand of coffee. The container runs in the 7 to 10 dollar range - depends on where I buy it. Big Lots had a shipment of it. 4 dollars. I bought a dozen or so. A month or so later I went back and they had eight left. I bought them all. I was good on coffee for close to a year. Now I'm back to paying seven to ten dollars.

 

If I had bought them all, when I first went there, I'd still be drinking four-dollar coffee. I thought about buying them all. But I decided to leave some for others. So, because I was "nice", and left some for others, I spent more money.

 

I don't do that any more. If I see it, and I want it, and I can afford it, I buy it. As much as I want, or as much as they'll let me buy.

 

That probably makes me a terrible person, but I don't run out of stuff too often.

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People who cannot obtain what they want attempt to make villains of all those who have acquired what they want before they need it.

Those who cannot obtain what they want fail to accept that their poor or non existant planning is not a valid reason to vilify others.

I call that good planning not hoarding.

 

Now those that buy lots of things for the purpose of greed are profiteers and they may well be villains.

 

The rest are not hoarders they are people who think ahead.

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The proper term is PREPPERS. I am prepared because I have enough food, water and ammo and stuff to last a while. Small guy's been hit hard but my local small guy store has more ammo on his shelf and a wider variety of guns than Walmart ever did.

 

Here's something to think about;

I've recently rekindled an old hobby, photography. Jumped into the digital age with both feets. I'd surely like to visit a CAMERA store and get up to speed on the latest...but they're kind of sparse. Seems them big box stores durn near run all them little stores out. Kind of reinforces my policy of shopping 'the little guy' every chance I get.

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I fail to see why a lack of planning on inventory for a gun store (ie, poor business planning) is in any way related to my decision to plan. I keep a large inventory of componets and ammo on hand so if we have a situation like the present, it does not effect me. As I have bought in bulk when prices were low I am in great shape.

If I owed his business, I would be able to make a great profit, not by 'gouging' but merely by selling for the 'market price' today. Let's face it--- ammo and raws go up all the time. In short times they go up more, but they never go back to where they were. Just by this inflation, you can make a nice profit if you have a place to store things and can buy bulk quantity to start with.

For example; most of my bricks of .22 lr ammo were bought from Fin, Fur and Feather on sale at the store for $7.99 a brick of 500. I have enough in storage to last 5 years or more. I do not worry about a current shortage and honestly can't believe what some folks pay for ammo.

Where would this gunstore owner be if he bought a pallet of 22lr when his distributor offered it? A lot better off than now is my guess.

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I fail to see why a lack of planning on inventory for a gun store (ie, poor business planning) is in any way related to my decision to plan. I keep a large inventory of componets and ammo on hand so if we have a situation like the present, it does not effect me. As I have bought in bulk when prices were low I am in great shape.

If I owed his business, I would be able to make a great profit, not by 'gouging' but merely by selling for the 'market price' today. Let's face it--- ammo and raws go up all the time. In short times they go up more, but they never go back to where they were. Just by this inflation, you can make a nice profit if you have a place to store things and can buy bulk quantity to start with.

For example; most of my bricks of .22 lr ammo were bought from Fin, Fur and Feather on sale at the store for $7.99 a brick of 500. I have enough in storage to last 5 years or more. I do not worry about a current shortage and honestly can't believe what some folks pay for ammo.

Where would this gunstore owner be if he bought a pallet of 22lr when his distributor offered it? A lot better off than now is my guess.

 

Like many of you, I'd put myself in the "prepper" classification. I haven't needed to buy any ammo or components since this mess started, and I'm still good for quite a bit longer. Like the ant that prepared for winter, we're prepared and well supplied. I agree that planning is not hoarding. But unlike the store, I only had to be prepared to meet my individual needs, not the needs of hundreds of customers. And then just for the calibers I regularly shoot - not every caliber that every customer shoots. The cost of "stocking up" on every caliber across the board would be cost prohibitive, and unless you had a crystal ball, foolhardy.

 

Everything that I have read from apparently reliable sources indicates to me that the ammo shortage is not the result of massive government purchases or conspiracies. (Does the government even buy .22 ammo?) The best explanation that I have seen indicates that since before the last election, folks who are worried about the administration's attitude toward guns have been buying everything they can get their hands on. And while the demand for guns has started to taper, the demand for ammo is still roaring, leaving just about every retailer with empty shelves within minutes of a delivery.

 

Now, the store I described is not Wal Mart. And although I appreciate the point that if they had had the foresight to stock up on ammo earlier they might have some now, that seems to me to be unrealistic from a business standpoint. Not even the mega stores have been able to maintain inventory, and a small shop doesn't have 1% of their buying power or available cash to purchase huge inventory.

 

Frankly, after standing across the counter from a fellow I've known for quite a few years, and seeing the pain and desperation in his eyes, I was looking for a way to prompt some thought on our part that might help ease the situation. Nobody is saying that you are a bad person if you planned ahead. If you did, you are probably not part of the problem now. But if you are concerned about the survival of this kind of shop, you might think about whether you can do anything, however small, to help them survive. Sometimes its not about the best deal or proving that you are smarter than the other guy.

 

For us, it's perhaps an inconvenience that we can't buy as much ammo as we'd like; for shops like this, it may mean that they close the doors. And that would be a shame.

 

 

LL

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I'm with LL on this one. In many ways, the LGS is important to our hobby. When we lose one, it is one less business on our side, and one less friend in our corner. I have not done, nor seen, any research, but my own observations tell me that we have more shops closing than opening in this day and age. Sure, we have Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops, and some of the chain sporting goods stores that sell. However, they just aren't the same as the person behind the counter at your small store. The one who will keep an eye out for that firearm you want or need, will deal on a trade for you- sometimes keeping your financial situation in mind in addition to their own, who will mention that you have a firearm that you might sell to someone who wants one, or just mention that you do a certain type of work to someone who stops by to shoot the breeze with them. I've had the owner of my LGS do all of the above for me. Speaking of shooting the breeze, I only remember doing so once at one of the larger stores, and that was with an older guy who found out my daughter had an interest in archery, and talked with the two of us for awhile on the subject. As many of us say, "it's the people" that keeps us shooting cowboy guns. Likewise, it is the people that keep me going back to my LGS.

 

Fortunately, the LGS I frequent is also part of a convenience and fishing store, so while business has taken a hit, it is in no real danger of closing up shop that I am aware of. I do have to say that when I read "lack of planning on inventory for a gun store (ie, poor business planning)" seems to show a lack of understanding regarding the "business model" of most small businesses. Most simply don't have the financial resources (or storage capacity) to stock large amounts of inventory. Instead, they operate on the turn-around of their product inventory. Buy, sell, pay bills and payroll, buy more, repeat. It is not a lack of planning or poor business planning, it is the reality of the situation that most find themselves in.

 

Can we say that it is Economic Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, at work? Of course. Just remember, Darwinism means that not only will the "fittest" survive, but that those that evolve to best suit the environment they find themselves in will survive. I would offer this: The big stores don't have the vested interest in the shooting sports that the LGS has. IF they see it as the best "evolution" for their business model to limit or even drop firearms from their stores, they will, and they won't look back.

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This is my view of the problem.

 

When all the new gun laws were first proposed people started panicking. Those that had been thinking about buying firearms suddenly decided they better get them now while they can. That also made them buy as much ammo as they thought they would need.

This panic buying caused the shelves to become bare.

Well the normal shipments would have kept the shelves stocked. But then you have hundreds of thousands ( if not millions) of new people with firearms buying ammo. So they normal shipments will no linger fill the shelves.

Until the people slow down on buying ammo the shortage will continue.

Now the manufactures have to run full blast to try and keep up. This would also effect the primers, brass and powder as they are using them to fill ammo orders.

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Its hoarding to me when I hear from people saying they have over 40,000 rds of .223. 50 or more bricks of .22s, and the saying they're still buying to "stockpile", and haven't shot a round.

Same for powder and primers. MT

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The proper term is PREPPERS. I am prepared because I have enough food, water and ammo and stuff to last a while. Small guy's been hit hard but my local small guy store has more ammo on his shelf and a wider variety of guns than Walmart ever did.

 

Here's something to think about;

I've recently rekindled an old hobby, photography. Jumped into the digital age with both feets. I'd surely like to visit a CAMERA store and get up to speed on the latest...but they're kind of sparse. Seems them big box stores durn near run all them little stores out. Kind of reinforces my policy of shopping 'the little guy' every chance I get.

 

Well I was wondering when the next "hoarder" hate thread would start. In 2009 I received a hate comments posted on the Wire and hate PM.s because I refused to apologize for having stockpiled reloading supplies and ammo.

 

I refuse to apologize again!

 

Pards have had the last four years to prepare for The American Caesars reelection. How short many memories are.

 

Like Dubious Don I am a Prepper (Well I am more wannabe at this time. Severe economic hardships for the last 1 1/2 years has left me with a small budget for stockpiling). FEMA recommends that homeowners keep a two week supply of essential items on hand. The breakdown in Law & Order and slow response of Government Agencies with Hurricane Katrina and Sandy shown several months is probable. Even with my severe economic hardships I have purchased more reloading supplies in the last eight months than in the last previous two or three years at pre-banic prices.

 

How? By careful on-line and retail store shopping and flexibility.

 

For on-line I have sign-up for many notification and backorder llsts.

 

Retail. We have two indoor shooting ranges here in town that I do not support simply because they either don't have what I need in stock and because their prices for 1 lb. (that's the only size they carry) powder are outrageous. Before I start hearing about how distributors have raised their prices I found a small retail store that not only has powder in 4 and 8 lbs. containers he is selling it at pre-banic prices. His inventory fluctuates as might be expected but by checking back with him on a weekly basis I have even been able to bulk buy W-231 and other impossible to find powders elsewhere.

 

I have also shifted my shooting interests. Since blackpowder is (or at least it was earlier this year) I am pursuing using C&B for CAS this year. Also from a Prepper viewpoint BP and frontstuffers are a excellent addition to any firearms battery.

 

And I let you in on one other dirty secret. When retail prices for ammo drops to what I consider affordable I am going to starting purchasing again. Let the preparations for the 2016 Presidental election commence!

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In the end this is all related to the nature of the new business model where smaller shops are being suppressed by larger/more dominant on-line sellers.

You can still find almost any gun you want. But it will be online. You wont be able to touch and feel it. But it is still there.

 

This may be more of a local issue. The local Gander Mountain and two indoor shooting ranges have stayed well stocked. The local Cabelas firearms inventory is much improved (however I suspect Cablela's low inventory after the first of the year was more for a tax reporting to IRS). Cowboy guns pickings are few but then they always have been here on retail level.

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^ What he said!!! I have a pard who stood in line for eight hours to buy large pistol primers. He bought a sleeve and called me and said that he only wanted 1k of them and asked me if I wanted the rest at what he paid for them. Of course I said yes and I asked him why he didn't want to keep them all and he told me that the shortage would be over in a couple of months and we'd have primers galore. Well it's been three months and he called me the other day to see if he could buy some primers from me because he couldn't find them anywhere. Of course I helped him out, but no a hoarder I'm not. IMHO this component and ammo shortage is going to be a permanent malady that were going to have to deal with. Calling each other names is not going to help. If I come across primers in my travels to Wyo. and Colorado over the next few weeks I'll buy them. It's better to have them and not need them than need them and not have them. If my pard wants to stand in line all day and then sell me most of his primers, I'll buy them too. That does not make me a hoarder.

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Just an aside... somethin' sinister is goin' on... somethin' besides folks hoardin'. Don't know what it is... and ain't gonna speculate...

 

But folks ain't been hoardin' since December... with ammo-rations "limits"... goin' out from every store that you can think of. Think 'bout it.

 

Don't ask me...

 

This should have been over... BY NOW.

 

ts

 

No speculation. Just facts.

 

The Assistant American Caesar has announced the only firearm they believe citizens should be allowed to own is a double barrel shotgun and the right to self defense should be limited to firing warning shots in the air.

 

“If you want to protect yourself, get a double-barrel shotgun.” I said, 'Jill, if there's ever a problem, just walk out on the balcony here ... walk out and put that double-barrel shotgun and fire two blasts outside the house.’ … You don't need an AR-15 — it's harder to aim, it's harder to use, and in fact you don't need 30 rounds to protect yourself. Buy a shotgun! Buy a shotgun!"

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/02/19/Biden-shotguns-Facebook

 

Then a week later he offered this wonderful piece of advice for home protection;

 

"F&S: What about the other uses, for self-defense and target practice?

 

V.P. BIDEN: Well, the way in which we measure it is—I think most scholars would say—is that as long as you have a weapon sufficient to be able to provide your self-defense. I did one of these town-hall meetings on the Internet and one guy said, “Well, what happens when the end days come? What happens when there’s the earthquake? I live in California, and I have to protect myself.” I said, “Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door.” Most people can handle a shotgun a hell of a lot better than they can a semiautomatic weapon in terms of both their aim and in terms of their ability to deter people coming. We can argue whether that’s true or not, but it is no argument that, for example, a shotgun could do the same job of protecting you. Now, granted, you can come back and say, “Well, a machine gun could do a better job of protecting me.” No one’s arguing we should make machine guns legal."

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/02/27/more-self-defense-advice-from-joe-biden-just-fire-the-shotgun-through-the-door/

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I'll buy what I want...when I can.

 

Of course money helps LOL :D

 

GG

+1 Rye

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Ok, here we have it folks.

 

Obama is gun salesman of the year.

 

Joe BIden is shotgun guru of the year.

 

 

What could be wrong with this picture?

 

I feel so warm and fuzzy all over.

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