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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Another hypothetical Whats the Call?

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Ten rifle, four targets, engage targets with at least two each, shooter jacks out first two rounds, moves to other targets and when empty reloads two and puts those two rounds on last target,,,, the two jacked out rounds were on first target that he engaged, but that was all he did on that target.

 

"Engage each target with at least two rounds each", on target one, jack, jack, on target 2 two shots, on target 3 four shots, on target 4 shots counting the 2 reloads.

 

what's the call and why?

 

 

no it's not winter, but it is awfully hot out!

 

PBCC

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P, no misses, jacking out a round does not even come close to engaging.

 

PS, I NEVER use the word 'engage' when writing a stage. At least I don't think I do.

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Clean.

 

The shooter hit the correct targets with the correct number of rounds. The OP makes it clear that the shooter engaged the targets as per the stage instructions. 2 on 1, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, 6 on 4.

 

He would have had 2 misses had he not reloaded. A jacked out round is a miss unless made up. If the shooter's first 2 rounds went off and he missed the target, we would not expect him to engage that target again, but move on to another target.

 

Fillmore

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For me it's a "P". Engage for me means firing a round at the correct target. Other wise we're back the shooter saying bang and dumping everything on the last target.

Ike

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Yeah, a "P"rocedural, I'd say, 'cuz if we give him target 1 for pointing the rifle at it and jacking out two rounds, by that logic he could jack out ALL the ammo and just be pointing the rifle at the various targets in the process, never actually firing a round.

 

Anyway, that's my take.

 

NOW, MY QUESTIONS ARE:

A. Could he have cut his actual time by NOT reloading and firing the last two rounds and just accepted the P or two misses?

......OR

B. Couldn't he have avoided both the P and misses by firing those two reloaded rounds at target 1?

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Clean.

 

The shooter hit the correct targets with the correct number of rounds. The OP makes it clear that the shooter engaged the targets as per the stage instructions. 2 on 1, 2 on 2, 2 on 3, 6 on 4.

 

He would have had 2 misses had he not reloaded. A jacked out round is a miss unless made up. If the shooter's first 2 rounds went off and he missed the target, we would not expect him to engage that target again, but move on to another target.

 

Fillmore

A jacked out round is an unfired round not a miss. Both are 5 second penalties.

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When the shooter reloaded he no longer can count the first two jacked out rounds as engaging the target or he engaged the targets with 12 rounds. He shot 10 rounds and hit 10 targets but never hit target one. P and clean I think. This one should be pretty straight forward with a miss flow chart but mine is not handy at all.

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P

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Had the shooter jacked two rounds and shot the rest of the targets as written (minus two on #4) it would have been 2 misses.

 

The shooter has the option to continue the string OR shoot the last two on target #1 by reloading. Shooter instead expended all 10 without shooting target #1.

 

"P"

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P

 

Those jacked out rounds are not engaging the target. IF they were, they could not be RELOADED to make up. You would have already engaged with those rounds.

 

We have talked about this before. ENGAGED is not WELL defined in the SASS rule book set. A good definition of ENGAGED is needed, or the word needs to be banned from use. Is a squib an engagement? I say is it not. Is a dud primer an engagement? I say not. Is a hammer falling on an empty chamber an engagement? I say not. Is a weak power round where the bullet gets out of the barrel an engagement? I say it is.

 

Thus, the practical meaning of the word ENGAGED, for what we are doing, must be that a bullet or shot left the barrel due to firing the gun.

 

Good luck, and it all depends upon what "is" is. :lol:

GJ

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P

 

Those jacked out rounds are not engaging the target. IF they were, they could not be RELOADED to make up. You would have already engaged with those rounds.

 

We have talked about this before. ENGAGED is not defined in the SASS rule book set. A good definition of ENGAGED is needed, or the word needs to be banned from use. Is a squib an engagement? I say is it not. Is a dud primer an engagement? I say not. Is a hammer falling on an empty chamber an engagement? I say not. Is a weak power round where the bullet gets out of the barrel an engagement? I say it is.

 

Thus, the practical meaning of the word ENGAGED, for what we are doing, must be that a bullet or shot left the barrel due to firing the gun.

 

Good luck, and it all depends upon what "is" is. :lol:

GJ

By your logic, if you run through a rifle string and the last round fails to fire for whatever reason you would give the shooter a P if they did not reload? If you point a gun at a target and attempt to fire it you have engaged the target IMHO. Shooter is clean.

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Yes, clean...missed no targets. However, got a "P". Had he just jacked the rounds he would have had 2 misses.

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ROI Page 29

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

In no universe I know of is jacking around attempting to fire a round at the target. Attempting to fire, to me, means pulling the trigger, jacking the round precludes pulling the trigger.

P, no misses as 10 rounds went clang.

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ROI Page 29

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

In no universe I know of is jacking around attempting to fire a round at the target. Attempting to fire, to me, means pulling the trigger, jacking the round precludes pulling the trigger.

P, no misses as 10 rounds went clang.

My interpretation of the OP Flying W was, the shooter shouldered the rifle, levered the action, pulled the trigger, no boom then cycled the action, jacking out round 1 and loading another. Pull the trigger, no boom, cycled the action jacking out round 2.

 

Fillmore

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ROI Page 29

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

 

In no universe I know of is jacking around attempting to fire a round at the target. Attempting to fire, to me, means pulling the trigger, jacking the round precludes pulling the trigger.

P, no misses as 10 rounds went clang.

So, if the shooter did not attempt to fire the round the only other possibility would be that they intentionally levered out 2 rounds. I can not for the life of me see why anyone would do that provided that the targets were similar in size or distance. If the first target was much smaller or otherwise harder to hit i guess the correct call would be a SOG. I personally would have re engaged the first target but i can not see where a P is warranted.

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Let me stand on my head and look at this again...

 

Stage called for 10 rifle rounds

Each target to be 'engaged at least twice'

 

Shooter jacked two out, some say that is engaged, some don't, for the sake of this look, lets say yes those two jacked rounds are engagements.

 

Shooter then fires 8, reloads 2, and fires those two. 8 plus 2 = 10

 

BUT WAIT!!!!!

 

What about those first two engagements for the jacked out rounds? 8 plus 2 plus 2 = 12!!!

 

Stage called for 10 from the rifle.

 

It's a P any way I look at it.

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Gentlemen, you need a RO I refresher if you are giving this shooter a clean bill or just some misses.

 

Take a look at the miss flow chart.

 

There were no misses. That's the first thing you check. Ten shots fired, ten hits all on the rifle targets. OK, no misses.

 

Shooter jacked out 2 rounds. Then first shot FIRED was on the second target. Then some on the 3rd target, maybe some on the fourth target, loads two rounds (making up his jacked out rounds) and puts those 2 on the fourth target. Did the shooter ever hit the first target? No, he never even fired at the first target. Was he required to hit the first target with two shots at some point in the rifle string? Yes, according to stage instructions. That is a classic Procedural - shot targets out of allowed order, because he did not fire at least two rounds at the first target. Were targets hit in an allowed order? No. Assess P.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Let me stand on my head and look at this again...

 

Stage called for 10 rifle rounds

Each target to be 'engaged at least twice'

 

Shooter jacked two out, some say that is engaged, some don't, for the sake of this look, lets say yes those two jacked rounds are engagements.

 

Shooter then fires 8, reloads 2, and fires those two. 8 plus 2 = 10

 

BUT WAIT!!!!!

 

What about those first two engagements for the jacked out rounds? 8 plus 2 plus 2 = 12!!!

 

Stage called for 10 from the rifle.

 

It's a P any way I look at it.

You can not asses a P because a shooter reloaded for a jacked out round. It is specifically allowed in the rules. Now, had the stage not been a round count stage but a sweep the shooter would earn a P as soon as he fired the first reloaded round on any target because you can not make up for the first target last.

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My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but was trying to make the point that if a jacked out round is good enough for an engagement in the target round count, then they should also be counted in the overall count for the rifle.

 

My first post up at the top states my true personal opinion - ten rounds hit the correct type target, no misses, two of those ten did not hit target one so it is a P.

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Gentlemen, you need a RO I refresher if you are giving this shooter a clean bill or just some misses.

 

Take a look at the miss flow chart.

 

There were no misses. That's the first thing you check. Ten shots fired, ten hits all on the rifle targets. OK, no misses.

 

Shooter jacked out 2 rounds. Then first shot FIRED was on the second target. Then some on the 3rd target, maybe some on the fourth target, loads two rounds (making up his jacked out rounds) and puts those 2 on the fourth target. Did the shooter ever hit the first target? No, he never even fired at the first target. Was he required to hit the first target with two shots at some point in the rifle string? Yes, according to stage instructions. That is a classic Procedural - shot targets out of allowed order, because he did not fire at least two rounds at the first target. Were targets hit in an allowed order? No. Assess P.

 

Good luck, GJ

Yes but the instructions were to engage each target 2 times, not fire two rounds at each target. SASS defines engage as- attempting to fire a round at the target. Unless you are sure that they did not attempt to fire those rounds, how can you award a penalty?

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Gentlemen, you need a RO I refresher if you are giving this shooter a clean bill or just some misses.

 

Take a look at the miss flow chart.

 

There were no misses. That's the first thing you check. Ten shots fired, ten hits all on the rifle targets. OK, no misses.

 

Shooter jacked out 2 rounds. Then first shot FIRED was on the second target. Then some on the 3rd target, maybe some on the fourth target, loads two rounds (making up his jacked out rounds) and puts those 2 on the fourth target. Did the shooter ever hit the first target? No, he never even fired at the first target. Was he required to hit the first target with two shots at some point in the rifle string? Yes, according to stage instructions. That is a classic Procedural - shot targets out of allowed order, because he did not fire at least two rounds at the first target. Were targets hit in an allowed order? No. Assess P.

 

Good luck, GJ

Joe, you stopped on the flow chart before the important part, "Were the targets engaged in the correct order?" Yes they were. The shooter pulled the trigger then jacked out an unfired round, he then did it again. He engaged that target 2 times.

 

Fillmore

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OK, let me take one more stab at this....

 

Stage calls for 10 rifle rounds - we all agree on that

 

Stage calls for each of the 4 targets to be engaged twice - we all agree on that

 

So, 10 divided by 4 is 2.5, well, we can't divide a shot, so there are limited ways we can do this....

 

Now stay with me here... forget about the word engaged for a minute....

 

Here are the ways to do a ten on four with each target at least twice, target numbers don't matter, so I'll just show counts

 

2, 2, 2, 4 (three targets twice, one target four times)

OR

2, 3, 2, 3 ( two targets two times, two targets three times)

Remember, target numbers don't matter, just the number of rounds on each target. So those could be shot any order with the rounds counts shown.

 

Shooter wound up with

0, 2, 4, 4

Shooter earns a P

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OK, let me take one more stab at this....

 

Stage calls for 10 rifle rounds - we all agree on that

 

Stage calls for each of the 4 targets to be engaged twice - we all agree on that

 

So, 10 divided by 4 is 2.5, well, we can't divide a shot, so there are limited ways we can do this....

 

Now stay with me here... forget about the word engaged for a minute....

 

Here are the ways to do a ten on four with each target at least twice, target numbers don't matter, so I'll just show counts

 

2, 2, 2, 4 (three targets twice, one target four times)

OR

2, 3, 2, 3 ( two targets two times, two targets three times)

Remember, target numbers don't matter, just the number of rounds on each target. So those could be shot any order with the rounds counts shown.

 

Shooter wound up with

0, 2, 4, 4

Shooter earns a P

Well, i guess if you throw out part of the stage instructions you could award a P. :wacko: The instructions were not a 10 on 4 it was engage each at least twice.

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That's where we go back to my post #19

 

If the jacked out rounds count as engagements on target 1, surely the ten rounds fired also count as engagements, so the shooter had 12 engagements when only 10 were called for in the round count for the stage.

 

 

If stage called for one round on R1, and then 9 rounds on R2 and the shooter jacked out his first round where should he fire the next round?

IF he fires the next 9 at R2, reloads, and fires the 10th anywhere, he earns a P.

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There is no penalty for excessive engagement, nowhere does it say you only get 10 tries. The stage instructions were met when the shooter attempted to fire those rounds. Had they chosen not to reload they would receive 2, 5 second penalties for unfired rounds. Not misses. They chose to reload the unfired rounds(allowed in the rules) to negate the penalty, and hit the correct type of target with them. I can not find anywhere in the book where by reloading you have somehow "un-engaged" any targets which were previously engaged. Can anybody pushing for a penalty show me in the book where I can see the rule?

 

If you fire more rounds than the instructions calll for you would get a p but you may attempt to fire them as many times as you want.

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OK Stack, I think we both understand the others position and still do not agree. I hope that a member of the rules committee will post and give a ruling, as one of us is not correct.

 

Have a good evening.

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When the rules committee decided you can engage a target without firing a round at it, they opened the door for this kind of stuff.

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http://www.oowss.com/SASS%20Rules%20Docs/Reload%20choices%20

 

Some good references from PWB in here...

 

The below is for a specified string order, but the ideas equate to this discussion.

 

A shooter who ejects a rifle round in the middle of a shooting string has FOUR choices:

1) Re-engage same target; then reload at the end of the string for the last target = No Penalty

2) Re-engage same target w/NO reload = Miss for the ejected (unfired) round

3) Skip to next target w/NO reload = Miss

4) Skip to next target w/reload/return to re-engage skipped target = Procedural

 

In this case, shooter has the option to take his 2 misses, hit R1 with 2 of the remaining 8 in the rifle and reload 2 for the others, or re-engage R1 with the reloads. He has to engage all 4 targets. This shooter Either engaged, jacked out, and takes the misses, or he reloads and finishes his string re-engaging the required targets(option 1 above). Luckily, in this instance, target order is of no difference, so he can do option 4 with no penalty in this case. When he reloaded and ended up not engaging R1 with any of the 10 rounds he scored with, he earned a P for not following direction. He can't have it both ways. It ain't the cowboy way.

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Branchwater, I can't get your link to work.

works now, thanks!!

 

I had some memory of that, but spent way too long trying to search for it here without success.

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