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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Another hypothetical Whats the Call?

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All I can say is............PBCC if'n this happins at a match this weakend I'ma gonna kall y'all on urn mobil talken device soos uens kan edumacate all of us pore fulks at the gathuren on the rurals.

 

PS: I nose the answer

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So, if the shooter did not attempt to fire the round the only other possibility would be that they intentionally levered out 2 rounds. I can not for the life of me see why anyone would do that provided that the targets were similar in size or distance. If the first target was much smaller or otherwise harder to hit i guess the correct call would be a SOG. I personally would have re engaged the first target but i can not see where a P is warranted.

 

 

My interpretation of the OP Flying W was, the shooter shouldered the rifle, levered the action, pulled the trigger, no boom then cycled the action, jacking out round 1 and loading another. Pull the trigger, no boom, cycled the action jacking out round 2.

 

Fillmore

 

 

So, let's put this another way:

Overloading the rifle is not a penalty, it may be a penalty for what you do with the last round, right?

I load 10 at a 9 stage, so far no penalty right?

At the end of 9 I jack out the last round.

Based on your opinions, jacking out the round is engaging a target, therefore, a jacked out 10th round is engaging a target or berm and is a P for use of Illegal Ammunition?

Jacked rounds can't be "engaged" in one scenario and "not engaged" in another. Jacked is Jacked. Not engaged.

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So, let's put this another way:

Overloading the rifle is not a penalty, it may be a penalty for what you do with the last round, right?

I load 10 at a 9 stage, so far no penalty right?

At the end of 9 I jack out the last round.

Based on your opinions, jacking out the round is engaging a target, therefore, a jacked out 10th round is engaging a target or berm and is a P for use of Illegal Ammunition?

Jacked rounds can't be "engaged" in one scenario and "not engaged" in another. Jacked is Jacked. Not engaged.

The big difference is, I think is, pulling the trigger, which doesn't happen in your above scenario. I assume in the original thread that, (it isn't mentioned) pulling the trigger occurred but there was no cartridge detonation. At this point, the shooter jacked out the faulty round. Then, it happened again.

 

Fillmore

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I agree with GJ and probably many others. For example, if the word "engage/engaged" were to be removed and replaced with "fire/fired", things like this would be much easier to grasp by more people. The definition of the word "engage/engaged" is definitely screwy to me. Don't need much of a definition of the word "fire/fired" with respect to shooting.

 

If I were in this situation, I believe that I would have shot the 3rd & 4th (first two to be "fired") rounds at target 1, two rounds on the rest, then loaded two at the end on any target.....likely the 4th, to have "fired" 10 rounds. I've already wasted time by attempting to "fire" the first two duds, and having to load up an additional two.....that's plenty of penalty in my mind.

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Yep, having been an RO in tough situations many times, with lots to watch, I KNOW I don't want to start being responsible for watching for "did the shooter pull the trigger and jack one out" or did he just "get the lever going first, which opened the action some, THEN pulled the trigger (or maybe didn't really even pull the trigger at all)." I can't see that fast for a fast rifle shooter (Deuce, for example) and still be watching the guy's muzzle, his feet, his proper shooting position, his target order, etc all at the same time!

 

So, with a reasonable interpretation of ENGAGED (or better yet, quit using that term) meaning more like "gun was fired" (a shot left the barrel), we don't have to watch for the exact time the trigger was pulled, nor scrabble in the dirt looking for a jacked-out round (was it undented? dented? primer-only detonation? reloaded with a fired primer?) nor have to do cowboy-gun-chamber-and- barrel-examinations, or try to determine the shooter's intent. We just have to watch for shots on the correct targets and use our ears to count shots fired. In this stage scenario, the spotting is difficult - no order specified and so the spotters have to watch all four targets and the gun out of the corner of their eyes, too. They sure won't be any help in deciding "when exactly did the trigger get pulled?" So, let's not try to go down that road. I can keep up with only having to remember to yell out: "only eight fired, reload two"

 

Engagement is for fiancees and battleships. Phooey on engagement in CAS. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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All this really isn't that hard if you just stop for a moment and think, ' what did the bullet do?' Because that's what we score. The rest is just BS looking for an argument on the SASS wire.

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Following with those who claim that he has engaged R1 already and therefore does not need to hit the target later, if the rifle was the first gun, would the RO have errored if he stopped the shooter prior to the first round engaged on R2 in order to allow the shooter to restart?

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Damn people, it isn't that hard. IF you believe the shooter engaged target 1 then you MUST issue 2 misses. The bullets did not hit the target. IF you believe he did not engage target 1 then it is a Procedural. It is just that simple. Two misses or a P, either way it is 10 seconds worth of penalties.

 

Whichever "side" you're on is, in one respect, irrelevant. Te shooter got a penalty because 2 bullets did not hit the target or he did not shoot the sequence correctly. Cannot have it both ways.

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Happy now Cheyenne Culpepper?

 

Fillmore

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Purdy Boy is sittin in a chair somewhere with a cold glass of lemonade smiling .........

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I think it's time for the tar and feathers... :D

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I'll be Purdy-Boy-Prairie-Pimp's lawyer on this one: there are 3 rule books and a host of RO issue/ rulings that all must be researched/ compiled or you just gotta know which comes from experience.

 

That's not right. SASS knows it's not right.

 

And after 32 years you'd think the largest organization in shooting sports would start charging all these ranges shooting monthlies and holding annuals etc. a fee for being a member of the sanctioning body of SASS such that they have enough money to put some team of RO Lawyers/ writers and proposers down at a resort in the Ghost Town in the Valley of Dust and not let them out until this is all rolled up into one proprietary rule book that is web searchable.

 

I rest my case, boys. Now put away the rope and go get a pink one to hang him as befitting his category.

 

PS...Plus, PWB is still recovering and we all really miss him. :huh::(

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All this really isn't that hard if you just stop for a moment and think, ' what did the bullet do?' Because that's what we score. The rest is just BS looking for an argument on the SASS wire.

 

Yep

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All this really isn't that hard if you just stop for a moment and think, ' what did the bullet do?' Because that's what we score. The rest is just BS looking for an argument on the SASS wire.

So, if the stage calls for a double tap sweep of 5 targets and the shooters rifle fails to fire for whatever reason on the last shot and the shooter does not have a reload on them they must be awarded a P for not engaging the last target twice?

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So, if the stage calls for a double tap sweep of 5 targets and the shooters rifle fails to fire for whatever reason on the last shot and the shooter does not have a reload on them they must be awarded a P for not engaging the last target twice?

...for whatever reason...?

 

Which implies Every Reason...

 

So the obvious answer is no.

 

So was this a real question?

 

Phantom

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...for whatever reason...?

 

Which implies Every Reason...

 

So the obvious answer is no.

 

So was this a real question?

 

Phantom

Well... it's not a fake one.

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So, if the stage calls for a double tap sweep of 5 targets and the shooters rifle fails to fire for whatever reason on the last shot and the shooter does not have a reload on them they must be awarded a P for not engaging the last target twice?

No - shooter only hit 9 targets - 1 miss.

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No - shooter only hit 9 targets - 1 miss.

An unfired round is a 5 second penalty not a miss. So did they engage the target twice?

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Same difference - 5 sec no P

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Same difference - 5 sec no P

So you agree that you can engage a target without firing a round. Now, can anyone show me in the rule book where it describes the process of un-engaging a target?

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So you agree that you can engage a target without firing a round. Now, can anyone show me in the rule book where it describes the process of un-engaging a target?

References:

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of loading or reloading any firearm during a stage or ejected is considered dead and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire. The round must be replaced from the shooters person or other area as required by stage description, or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

SHB/ RO1

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Well... it's not a fake one.

No...but it can be a rhetorical one...

 

Thanks for help push SASS to a better future!

 

Where would we be...where would we be...

 

Oy!

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I can agree if you don't hit all the targets specified in the order specified or the number of times specified it's a P.

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An unfired round is a 5 second penalty not a miss. So did they engage the target twice?

A jacked out round, if not legally reloaded, is scored as a miss. See reference above as well as:

 

FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A miss is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

Each unfired round.

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A jacked out round, if not legally reloaded, is scored as a miss. See reference above as well as:

 

FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A miss is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

Each unfired round.

It carries the same penalty and is listed below misses on the list of 5 second penalties, the difference is that an unfired round can be made up for whereas a miss can not.

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It carries the same penalty and is listed below misses on the list of 5 second penalties, the difference is that an unfired round can be made up for whereas a miss can not.

Yes, & if you make it up on the wrong target & hit it, it's a P

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No...but it can be a rhetorical one...

 

Thanks for help push SASS to a better future!

 

Where would we be...where would we be...

 

Oy!

I am not sure I understand where you are going with this. Somehow because I would not give someone a P without being able to justify it within the rule book and stage description as written I am hurting or failing to push SASS to a better future?

The stage instructions said engage each twice, the shooter did that according to The definition of the word engage in the SASS RO1 book. There was no sweep or target order given so the two reloaded rounds could not possibly have hit the wrong target. Unless there is some way of un-engaging a target I say clean. Was what the shooter did right?, I say no, but it was legal.

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Yes, & if you make it up on the wrong target & hit it, it's a P

To drive this correct point home with a rule reference from RO1

 

10- SECOND PENALTIES Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by brain fade, confusion, ignorance, or mistakes (not to exceed one for any given stage).

 

Shooting targets in an order other than as required by stage description.

 

Engaging the stage (firearms, targets, or maneuvers) in an order other than as required by the stage description.

 

If he ended without reloading, he met the condition to satisfy point two, so no P. just misses.

 

When he reloaded 2 and never hit target 1, but had 10 successful hits on the other three targets, he did not shoot them in the order defined by the stage instructions. He gets a P.

 

CC, do I get any credit for quoting all these sources for the ruling, or did you give up reading this thread five minutes after you posted it?

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Deleted - I was wrong on this one.

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Engage 4 targets with at least 2 rounds each......results in many ways to HIT the targets....... 2,2,2,4.......2,3,3,2.......3,3,2,2.....etc......no where in those combinations do you have the ability to hit more than 1 target with 4 rounds and meet the minimum requirement for HITS on this stage.

 

2 targets with 4 hits each in this scenario is a P......If you jack out rounds you have options that were listed in this thread. NOT one of them allows you to hit the targets differently than everyone else.

 

Anyone calling anything other than a "P" needs to go back to class.

 

Well Stan he did ENGAGE the targets per the definition.......hmmmmm......so If I use that same logic ALL my stages would be CLEAN because I ENGAGE every target when I fire the gun even when I MISS the target and the stage instructions only said ENGAGE........CLEAN MATCH for EVERYONE ALL THE TIME YIPPPEEEE YAAAHOOOO!!!!

 

Come on boys.....Think about it......It can't be BOTH ways.

 

Stan

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I am not sure I understand where you are going with this. Somehow because I would not give someone a P without being able to justify it within the rule book and stage description as written I am hurting or failing to push SASS to a better future?

The stage instructions said engage each twice, the shooter did that according to The definition of the word engage in the SASS RO1 book. There was no sweep or target order given so the two reloaded rounds could not possibly have hit the wrong target. Unless there is some way of un-engaging a target I say clean. Was what the shooter did right?, I say no, but it was legal.

Why do you use the word "Reloaded"?

 

They were..."Loaded".

 

But manipulating the game in such a way as to make it a requirement to bring council to each and every stage is not a positive direction to push SASS towards.

 

Just my opinion...don't get yer panties in a wad.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, July 19, 2013 - Insult, nothing added to the conversation.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, July 19, 2013 - Insult, nothing added to the conversation.

So, if the stage calls for a double tap sweep of 5 targets and the shooters rifle fails to fire for whatever reason on the last shot and the shooter does not have a reload on them they must be awarded a P for not engaging the last target twice?

Does it hurt when you think?

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Smokestack,

 

Can you actually argue, with a straight face, that it would be legal for a cowboy to shoot r2 twice, r3 four times, r4 four times, then remember he had to engage r1 twice, so he loads two more off the body and then ENGAGES r1 twice after shooting the other 3 targets 10 times? He just needs to engage them, right? Why would it matter if he engaged them at the beginning or the end?

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Smokestack,

 

Can you actually argue, with a straight face, that it would be legal for a cowboy to shoot r2 twice, r3 four times, r4 four times, then remember he had to engage r1 twice, so he loads two more off the body and then ENGAGES r1 twice after shooting the other 3 targets 10 times? He just needs to engage them, right? Why would it matter if he engaged them at the beginning or the end?

Nowhere in this thread have I argued that firing more rounds than the stage calls for would be OK. The shooter in this case would get a P for firing too many rounds.

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