Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Another hypothetical Whats the Call?

Recommended Posts

Why do you use the word "Reloaded"?

 

They were..."Loaded".

 

But manipulating the game in such a way as to make it a requirement to bring council to each and every stage is not a positive direction to push SASS towards.

 

Just my opinion...don't get yer panties in a wad.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

I am sorry if I have confused you with the word reloaded. I was referring to the two rounds that the shooter loaded on the clock. I am not trying to manipulate anything. In my opinion there should be a rule change and this type of thing should result in P but until there is something in the rule book that says it is I will not be giving anybody a penalty. I am not one who is into making up rules or handing out Ps just because I feel that they should get one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hereby pledge to challenge any future stage description that uses the term "engage" and will ask if the posse marshal intends to use some screwy term that no one really knows what the meaning is, or if he is going to interpret it as if the stage description used the words "fire at" or "shoot." If he answers, ok, that is what the word means, then I will shoot the stage. Otherwise, we're going to have to pry out of him/her what the match's "definition du jour" really is.

 

Once again, phooey on "engagement" in CAS. Failure to use simple words that simple folks (hey, that includes me!) can understand to run a simple shooting game without confusion and arguments is nothing but nuts.

 

I thought I was coming out to a shooting match, not an engagement party. :P;)

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone explain how the word engage got to be so common in stage descriptions? I seem to recall a discussion about knockdown targets and the use of the word engage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I've been here all along, yes I would agree it is a P. maybe, for practical reasons yes, but for argument... maybe not.

 

However I see many people not liking the word "engage". What would a better word be? Fire? ok then if you jack out a round and go on in say a dbl tap sweep, then you would give a P because shooter went 2-2-1-2-2? with the single being because of a jacked out round and shooter went on, that's be allowed for at least 10 yrs.

 

what would a better word be instead of engage?

 

btw several folks were wrong about what's actually counted as to engaging a target.

 

maybe PWB is just sitting there shaking his head..... hopefully with a smile...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY! Has it been SO LONG ago that "engaged/ing" a target was defined as the actual act of sending lead downrange that senility has set in? Or are y'all SO NEW as to never had it defined thusly for you? Because it sure reads that way on this thread!

 

 

The shooter in thhe OP "engaged" nothing until he FIRED his first round, sending lead downrange. To state otherwise is to ASSUME he was doing so. And the ONE thing that is sure lead to poor calls is to ASSUME just about anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY! Has it been SO LONG ago that "engaged/ing" a target was defined as the actual act of sending lead downrange that senility has set in? Or are y'all SO NEW as to never had it defined thusly for you? Because it sure reads that way on this thread!

 

 

The shooter in thhe OP "engaged" nothing until he FIRED his first round, sending lead downrange. To state otherwise is to ASSUME he was doing so. And the ONE thing that is sure lead to poor calls is to ASSUME just about anything.

From page 29 of RO1.

Engaged

attempting to fire a round at the target.
Is this info incorrect, and if so can you point us to the correct rule?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

then if you jack out a round and go on in say a dbl tap sweep, then you would give a P because shooter went 2-2-1-2-2? with the single being because of a jacked out round and shooter went on, that's be allowed for at least 10 yrs.

 

The PWB "four choices" ruling applies in your new scenario:

 

A shooter who ejects a rifle round in the middle of a shooting string has FOUR choices:

 

1) Re-engage same target; then reload at the end of the string for the last target = No Penalty

2) Re-engage same target w/NO reload = Miss for the ejected (unfired) round

3) Skip to next target w/NO reload = Miss

4) Skip to next target w/reload/return to re-engage skipped target = Procedural

 

So, if the shooter took choice # 3 as your scenario hints, he would get one miss for a round not fired.

 

If you are implying that he shot those nine shots, only putting one on target 3, then came back after the 9, loaded one more and shot target 3 again, that would be choice # 4, which would get him a P.

 

Only choice #1, where the shooter "engages" target #3 three times (and fires 2 rounds at #3, jacking one out), then loads at the end with an 11th round that is used on target 5 (for 10 shots fired), allows the shooter to not get any miss or P.

 

But I'm sure you realize that. So what's the point of this question?

 

 

Note well:

The "4-choices" ruling makes it VERY clear that just having the rifle pointed at a target when you jack out a round does not satisfy "having hit the target". You have to actually hit the target with bullets to have hit the target. Same as why the original scenario cannot depend upon the word engage to relieve you hitting the #1 target at least 2 times. That does not satisfy.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

From page 29 of RO1.

Engaged
attempting to fire a round at the target.
Is this info incorrect, and if so can you point us to the correct rule?

No, that is correct. Not exactly well stated... BUT, the simple act of point your gun at a target is NOT engaging. Cocking the hammer or working the lever and pulling the trigger also do not constitute "engaging". Actually firing a round does. Think of it this way: "Engaged = the attempt to hit a target by firing a round at it."

 

Otherwise, how would you know which target the shooter was engaging. The shooter could claim anything. Oh sure, if you're the TO, and properly positioned to see down the barrel, you'd have a good "idea" of where it was pointing... but, you wouldn't really KNOW! You'd be simply guessing, or worse yet, assuming.

 

Let me put this way, not EVERY attempt to fire a round at a target ends with a hit. There are many attempts that end in failure to hit. But, if the attempt was a bullet downrange, you can pretty well know whether it was a hit or miss, and what target was hit, and if no target was hit, you know which was supposed to be hit, regardless of which one the shooter was "engaging". Hence, you'd also know what target the next attempt for a properly place hit should be.

 

To put it another way; if this was the first string of the stage, the shooter could also have just simply said, "... let me get a restart." As, no target had been engaged, or, as per the actual language, no rounds had been sent down range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, the shooter "engaged" the first 2 targets by jacking them out.........means he put 12 rounds on targets on a 10 round string.........still a P.

 

I can't believe this is a 3 pager.......but then again I can. <_<

 

CS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The PWB "four choices" ruling applies in your new scenario:

 

A shooter who ejects a rifle round in the middle of a shooting string has FOUR choices:

 

1) Re-engage same target; then reload at the end of the string for the last target = No Penalty

2) Re-engage same target w/NO reload = Miss for the ejected (unfired) round

3) Skip to next target w/NO reload = Miss

4) Skip to next target w/reload/return to re-engage skipped target = Procedural

 

So, if the shooter took choice # 3 as your scenario hints, he would get one miss for a round not fired.

 

If you are implying that he shot those nine shots, only putting one on target 3, then came back after the 9, loaded one more and shot target 3 again, that would be choice # 4, which would get him a P.

 

Only choice #1, where the shooter "engages" target 3 three times and fires at #2 two times, then loads at the end with an 11th round that is used on target 5 (for 10 shots fired), allows the shooter to not get any miss or P.

 

But I'm sure you realize that. So what's the point of this question?

 

 

Note well:

The "4-choices" ruling makes it VERY clear that just having the rifle pointed at a target when you jack out a round does not satisfy "having hit the target". You have to actually hit the target with bullets to have hit the target. Same as why the original scenario cannot depend upon the word engage to relieve you hitting the target. That does not satisify.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

I stated the dbl tap instance because some were saying that you had to "fire" the rifle to count as enagaging the target, in this instance shooter went on without re-engaging or reloading, and thus the fallacy shown of "you must fire to be counted as engaged."

 

 

 

and you don't have to pull the trigger to count as engaged either.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YOU have NOT engaged a target unless you send a bullet down range after it. Whether you hit it not is immaterial. Simple as that.

 

Any other definition is simply bogus.

 

RBK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

YOU have NOT engaged a target unless you send a bullet down range after it. Whether you hit it not is immaterial. Simple as that.

 

Any other definition is simply bogus.

 

RBK

The rules we play by are all printed in 3 books. Page 29 of the RO1 manual disagrees with you. Where have you found this alternate definition or did you just make it up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules we play by are all printed in 3 books. Page 29 of the RO1 manual disagrees with you. Where have you found this alternate definition or did you just make it up?

Pard there is NO way possible for the shooter to put 4 rounds on more than 1 target in this sequence and NOT get a P while only firing 10 rounds.

 

Using your logic if the stage instruction use the word engage the shooter wouldn't have to hit anything.....just point gun and cycle it would do.

 

I'll say it again you can't have it both ways.

 

Stan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pard there is NO way possible for the shooter to put 4 rounds on more than 1 target in this sequence and NOT get a P while only firing 10 rounds.

 

Using your logic if the stage instruction use the word engage the shooter wouldn't have to hit anything.....just point gun and cycle it would do.

 

I'll say it again you can't have it both ways.

 

Stan

And you would receive a 5 second penalty for every unfired round but not a P.

The stage instructions in the OP made no mention of how many rounds to put anywhere, only to engage each target at least twice. Had there been any type of target order in this scenario loading and firing two additional rounds on any target would have resulted in a P.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He already made it home!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you would receive a 5 second penalty for every unfired round but not a P.

The stage instructions in the OP made no mention of how many rounds to put anywhere, only to engage each target at least twice. Had there been any type of target order in this scenario loading and firing two additional rounds on any target would have resulted in a P.

I never read stage instructions that say HIT the targets. They always say engage. So by your logic I would have complied by engaging. If you do not understand why this is a P then you should not put yourself in a position to have to make calls. By failing to make the proper call you penalize all the other shooters at the match.

 

You must base you call on the hits and misses. The term engage in the instructions means to HIT or attempt to hit. By virtue of the reload the shooter CHOSE to replace is "jacked out engaged without hits rounds" and then proceeded to HIT the targets in fashion contrary to the stage instructions.

 

You can try to twist it as much as you want but it is a P.

 

Stan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never read stage instructions that say HIT the targets. They always say engage. So by your logic I would have complied by engaging. If you do not understand why this is a P then you should not put yourself in a position to have to make calls. By failing to make the proper call you penalize all the other shooters at the match.

 

You must base you call on the hits and misses. The term engage in the instructions means to HIT or attempt to hit. By virtue of the reload the shooter CHOSE to replace is "jacked out engaged without hits rounds" and then proceeded to HIT the targets in fashion contrary to the stage instructions.

 

You can try to twist it as much as you want but it is a P.

 

Stan

Just curious, if a shooter has a malfunction and their rifle locks up half way through a string, do you give them a P because they stopped shooting before they got to 10?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Logic is a fine art...some folks are lousy artists.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Smokestack,

I've been shooting this game for 28 years. And have been running a timer almost every match. I've seen rule change after rule change. I've even made a few bad calls. But pard, this ain't one of 'em. The "P" is NOT for jacking the rounds out, nor is it for putting replacements in the gun (reloading), it IS for shooting the targets in a manner not allowed for in the stage instructions. Just as you cannot be penalized (beyond the miss) for aiming at, but missing the number 2 target in a sequence, when you should have been aiming at the #1 target. Hit #2, when #1 was next, whether you were aiming at #1 or not... and you've earned a "P" for engaging the wrong target in the sequence. You don't get a miss for missing #1, (5 seconds), instead, you get a 10 second "P" for engaging the targets out of sequence. Same as the fellar in the OP should've gotten.

Clear as mud, right? Fair too, right? But, that's the rules. Read the "Miss Flow Chart". Answer the questions properly, and it WILL direct you to the proper call.

 

Just curious, if a shooter has a malfunction and their rifle locks up half way through a string, do you give them a P because they stopped shooting before they got to 10?

No. It's a miss for every unfired round,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think my head is going to explode if I keep reading this thread!

You deleted my question on this subject... ahemmmmm......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just curious, if a shooter has a malfunction and their rifle locks up half way through a string, do you give them a P because they stopped shooting before they got to 10?

Only if they hit the targets out of order before the malfunction.

 

Stan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three pages?!?!?!?!!?

You'd think it was the middle of winter going by the discussions on the wire lately. I'm getting a lot of use out of this graphic:

 

 

dead-horse_zpsaff8d2c9.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pard there is NO way possible for the shooter to put 4 rounds on more than 1 target in this sequence and NOT get a P while only firing 10 rounds.

 

Using your logic if the stage instruction use the word engage the shooter wouldn't have to hit anything.....just point gun and cycle it would do.

 

Stan

 

Stan is exactly right in this statement.

And the term "Engage" means exactly engage (the "attempt" to fire) - it does not mean there has to be a bang or a projectile must leave the barrel or the target has to be struck.

 

We don't require EVERY round be fired or that every round strike a target - just that an "attempt" be made.

A shooter is 100% within the rules to run up to the firing line and cycle their rifle until empty without a single round going bang (I know some Marlin rifle shooters with safeties moving upon staging having done exactly that)

 

They can then choose to put down their rifle and continue on with the stage and their only penalty is 5 seconds per unfired round - there is no "P" to be awarded.

 

A jacked out round is EITHER an engagement or immaterial VAPOR - the shooter can decide when it happens how they will deal with that jacked out round.

 

The shooter in the OP had these options.

Consider target 1 engaged by the two jacked out rounds and continue on the LEGAL sequence with their remaining 8 rounds.

TWO misses/ No P

Disregard the two jacked out rounds (Vapor) by reloading two rounds somewhere within the shooting string and then complete the LEGAL sequence.

Clean/ No P

(or the shooters choice)

Disregard the two jacked out rounds (Vapor) by reloading two rounds somewhere within the shooting string and THEN complete the sequence ILLEGALLY

Clean with a P

 

Not really sure why we want to blame the word "engage" for the shooter failing to follow stage instructions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.