Faster rifle than pistol bullets

[rippin kid]

I'm starting to reload and have a two questions

Is there an advantage to loading a faster rifle bullet than pistol?

An advantage to a heavier bullet in the rifle compared to the pistol?

[Buckshot Frank]

I'm starting to reload and have a two questions

Is there an advantage to loading a faster rifle bullet than pistol?

An advantage to a heavier bullet in the rifle compared to the pistol?

 

I have a different load for rifle and pistol only because a longer bullet feeds better in my '73 rifle. I use a 147gr bullet in my rifle and 122gr bullet for my pistols. I use the same powder charge for each, which means that I only have to adjust the bullet seating die to change between rifle and pistol loads.

 

I would suggest finding a pistol load that you like, then see if it feeds well in your rifle. If it does, then keep things simple and use the same load for both. If not, adjust as necessary.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Kid,

 

In my opinion, YES, there is an advantage of having a faster load in the rifle than the pistol for CAS.

 

More than likely, even if your shooting the same load in both pistol and rifle, you will probably already have more velocity in the rifle.

 

But here is the key (in my opin).

Because we are only human, alot of us have a tendency to shoot our 'next round' after we here the ding of the shot we just fired. And because of that bad habit, a slower round will cause you to delay between shots. A faster round COULD very well help you speed up the functioning in working your rifle quicker.

 

Ya wanta get that round down range FAST. It'll help you in your game, assuming you're not shooting some monster wart hog loads that completely throw you off target everytime you shoot.

 

Personally, I use a 130 in my pistols and a 110 in my rifle.

 

Velocity in pistol is @ 700 and rifle is @ 1100 +/-.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

..........Widder

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I shoot the same load in both my pistol and rifle. The velocity is a little faster in the rifle just as expected. I don't have any problem with KD targets with the rifle so I have no need for more power. I don't wait for the ding before firing the next rifle shot. That is a habit that will slow you down.

 

Blackfoot

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Another advantage of having your rifle loads be stouter than your normal revolver loads - you have revolver "knockdown" rounds available right there in your cart automatically - just use your rifle loads for the tough KDs. You will almost never need "hot" rifle loads as the rifle usually has no difficulty with KDs, but if your revolver loads are down under 100 PF, there can sometimes be a set of pistol targets that need just a little more help falling down, whether it was due to miscalibration, lead in the hinge, targets set on the side of a hill, targets starting to malfunction, etc.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

"Is there an advantage to loading a faster rifle bullet than pistol?

"An advantage to a heavier bullet in the rifle compared to the pistol?"

 

The answer is "yes" to both questions. But that needs to be balanced with the advantages of keeping things simple and using one load for both.

 

1. You don't have to worry about running out of either at a match.

2. You don't have to change settings on your loader to go from "rifle" to "pistol".

 

The advantages of keeping it simple have won out for me. Never had separate rounds for both guns. I've played with different calibers (38 special and then 44 special/mag) and different loads, but always made sure that the same load worked in both guns.

 

Just my view from the cheap seats. You'll have to figure out what works for you.

[Wyandot Jim]

Well,

I like a 125 357 rifle round at about 1350-1400 with both Black and smokeless. Couple of MY reasons, makes it easy for the counters to hear, gets to target fast so no waiting for the ding that some of us might do, Sight in at 40-50 yards and will still be good for that bonus at 100-125 yards. not really any recoil in the rifle so a light load doesn't get ya anything other than the same round for pistol and rifle. I shoot 38,45s,& balls in pistolies so rifle is by itself.

[Rattler]

Kid,

 

In my opinion, YES, there is an advantage of having a faster load in the rifle than the pistol for CAS.

 

More than likely, even if your shooting the same load in both pistol and rifle, you will probably already have more velocity in the rifle.

 

But here is the key (in my opin).

Because we are only human, alot of us have a tendency to shoot our 'next round' after we here the ding of the shot we just fired. And because of that bad habit, a slower round will cause you to delay between shots. A faster round COULD very well help you speed up the functioning in working your rifle quicker.

 

Ya wanta get that round down range FAST. It'll help you in your game, assuming you're not shooting some monster wart hog loads that completely throw you off target everytime you shoot.

 

I agree!

[Snakebite]

I like a fast round in the rifle to help keep from shooting in between targets on a fast sweep. Lock time helps that too. If you are zooming across a row of targets, pull the trigger as you go, the faster the bullet gets out of the barrel, the less chance of pulling it off target as you sweep. I also like a large (longer) bullet in my rifle to allow for a better grab on the rifleings.

 

 

Snakebite

[twelve mile REB]

Remember opinions are worth exactly what you are paying for them. One load is easier to manage, fit it to your rifle, as most revolvers will accept more variation. It is a rare shooter that has reflexes faster than a 100gr. bullet traveling at 600 fps. If you fall into that category then faster ammunition is for you but that is all that is required. Load 100 rounds of KD’s they will probably last you several years. I use a red box for my KD’s with the sight picture drawn inside the lid. I shoot every weekend the box is three years old and only half empty.

Semper Fi

12

[Six-Shot]

I'm starting to reload and have a two questions

Is there an advantage to loading a faster rifle bullet than pistol?

An advantage to a heavier bullet in the rifle compared to the pistol?

 

YES and YES

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I've always shot the same bullet with a velocity in the 700-750 FPS range (out of pistol) in both the pistol and the rifle. I'd suggest calculating the difference in the time it takes a round going 700 FPS vs. a round traveling 1000 FPS to travel the length of your rifle barrel. Then determine how much you can move in the "time saved." Once it has left the barrel, you have stopped influencing the direction of the bullet. Even if you do the same calculation with the bullet travelling the entire distance to the rifle targets, you'd have to be quicker than any cat to make anything of it.

 

In recent times I've been loading some lighter bullets that travel a bit slower. Only time will tell if the difference in sound will mess with my psyche...which brings me to the point I'm trying to make: If there is any difference, the difference is created between the shooter's ears. I'm NOT saying I'm incapable of allowing something to creep into my head and convince me that I am being "held back" by...whatever. The mind is the most powerful friend or enemy when trying to shoot fast and accurately. My opinion is that if you don't convince yourself that you need two different bullets...you don't. On the other hand, if you believe you need two different rounds...you most certainly do.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I load two different loads.

 

Pistol is 110gr going around 700-750fps.

 

Rifle is 125gr or 147gr moving alot faster. I use about a litle over half a gr more in the

rifle.

 

Wife shots also. So I load a little lighter load for the pistols to help with recoil. But still want some

recoil. So found the 110gr works great for that.

 

The rifle I want to hit a little harder. So use a bigger bullet moving a little faster.

Some counters only go by sound. Rifle targets are out the a littel more. So I want to make sure

they see and hear the hit.

 

Also the 147gr works good for knock downs. Takes them down a little faster and on some, you are not waitting for them

to fall before moving to the next.

For pistol KD's we mostly use the 125gr. But it one looks a little sticky. We grab the

147's for those also.

 

I have no problem telling them apart. And load the loading strips before the match starts.

[Buckshot Frank]

I've always shot the same bullet with a velocity in the 700-750 FPS range (out of pistol) in both the pistol and the rifle. I'd suggest calculating the difference in the time it takes a round going 700 FPS vs. a round traveling 1000 FPS to travel the length of your rifle barrel. Then determine how much you can move in the "time saved." Once it has left the barrel, you have stopped influencing the direction of the bullet. Even if you do the same calculation with the bullet travelling the entire distance to the rifle targets, you'd have to be quicker than any cat to make anything of it.

 

 

All right- The engineer in me couldn't resist. Just doing so "no-math" math here, with two loads having a 300 fps difference. If the average CAS rifle target were 30 ft (maybe a little longer than average, but it makes the math easy), that would be a 0.1 second difference it total flight time of the bullet. Time to leave the barrel (lets say the barrel is 24" -again, longer than average, but it makes the math easier) would be 0.0066 seconds different between a slow (700 fps) and a fast (1000 fps) load.

 

I will not judge whether these numbers are significant or not, I just couldn't resist doing the math in my head.

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

All right- The engineer in me couldn't resist. Just doing so "no-math" math here, with two loads having a 300 fps difference. If the average CAS rifle target were 30 ft (maybe a little longer than average, but it makes the math easy), that would be a 0.1 second difference it total flight time of the bullet. Time to leave the barrel (lets say the barrel is 24" -again, longer than average, but it makes the math easier) would be 0.0066 seconds different between a slow (700 fps) and a fast (1000 fps) load.

 

I will not judge whether these numbers are significant or not, I just couldn't resist doing the math in my head.

 

Wow, my hat is off to anyone that can actually fire "next rounds" in a rifle that fast!

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Being both cheap and lazy, shoot the same load, rifle, pistol, 44 Mag/Spec or 45 ACP and Colt. 750 - 800 FPS in all but ACP, then is close to factory.

For long range, double the charge in 44 Mag Case, still well within SASS max velocity for rifle and is between starting and max load per published load tables.

 

Given I generally wear out 3 hour glasses per match, mine may not be best advice. Usually only 1 or 2 misses though

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I use the same load in all my .45s It clocks between 916 - 960 Fps. in my pistols (dependant on gun used( and the same load clocks between 1,224 and 1,280 depending on rifle used ...

 

I also use 250 gr. bullets as they are more accurate in my guns ....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Utah Bob #35998]

Kid,

 

In my opinion, YES, there is an advantage of having a faster load in the rifle than the pistol for CAS.

 

More than likely, even if your shooting the same load in both pistol and rifle, you will probably already have more velocity in the rifle.

 

But here is the key (in my opin).

Because we are only human, alot of us have a tendency to shoot our 'next round' after we here the ding of the shot we just fired. And because of that bad habit, a slower round will cause you to delay between shots. A faster round COULD very well help you speed up the functioning in working your rifle quicker.

 

Ya wanta get that round down range FAST. It'll help you in your game, assuming you're not shooting some monster wart hog loads that completely throw you off target everytime you shoot.

 

Personally, I use a 130 in my pistols and a 110 in my rifle.

 

Velocity in pistol is @ 700 and rifle is @ 1100 +/-.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

..........Widder

 

You can hear the ding??

[Widder, SASS #59054]

You can hear the ding??

 

 

Only when i MISS!

 

 

..........Widder

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Wow, my hat is off to anyone that can actually fire "next rounds" in a rifle that fast!

 

 

Me too.

 

Actually, its not the speed a shooter can fire their rifle or pistol but rather the 'reaction time' for the shooter to shoot the next round.....IF that shooter is one of those shooters who have a habit of shooting subsequent shots based on the previous shot.

 

For example, I've been told by a retired quick draw expert that our reaction time is .250 (1/4 of a second). This is based on the ear to tell the brain that it just heard a hit AND time to react.

Thats about .125 for the brain to recognize what just happened and another .125 for the shooter to respond to what the brain just accepted.

 

NOW, ifn the math experts want to calculate those figures into every shot of each stage of a match, we all will have a better understanding why TOP SHOOTERS DO NOT SHOOT WHIMPY LOADS.....

 

And, my guess is that alot of top shooters don't listen to 'dings' anyhow.....but it does happen.

 

If you want to ever really understand how hard it is to get the brain trained to 'not interfere' with our shooting process, then try to shoot 10 shots in sub 2 time. The biggest obstacle wasn't having the speed to do it. The biggest obstacle was getting the brain to stop interfering with the process.

 

EDITED: I know this sounds like alot of bull and it may be so. But its my story and I'll stick to it...

 

 

..........Widder

[Alchemy John]

Yes, I think there can be an advantage to both.

 

A heavier bullet and more powder will cause the case to more effectively swell, sealing the chamber from blow-back. I have found this to be a common issue with 45 Colt chambered Marlin rifles. Personally, I believe the stouter load is worth the elimination of hot powder exhaust spit back in my face.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Time to target:

30 ft. divided by 700 FPS = .0429

30 ft. divided by 1000 FPS = .0300

 

Difference in time to target .0129. Slightly over 1/100th of a second.

 

 

Time in 24" (2 ft) barrel:

2 ft. divided by 700 FPS = .0028

2 ft. divided by 1000 FPS = .0020

 

Difference in time in barrel .0008. I don't think 8/10,000th of a second is going to mess anybody up.

 

 

Ya'll do realize that a bullet travelling even 600 FPS is only a bit slower than the speed of sound at 1115 FPS? I think there is a bit of over analyzing going on. If you're worrying about how long it takes the bullet to get to the target, you should also consider the fact that it will take the sound of the "ding" .0269 (almost 3/100ths) of a second to come back to you.

[Buckshot Frank]

All right- The engineer in me couldn't resist. Just doing so "no-math" math here, with two loads having a 300 fps difference. If the average CAS rifle target were 30 ft (maybe a little longer than average, but it makes the math easy), that would be a 0.1 second difference it total flight time of the bullet. Time to leave the barrel (lets say the barrel is 24" -again, longer than average, but it makes the math easier) would be 0.0066 seconds different between a slow (700 fps) and a fast (1000 fps) load.

 

I will not judge whether these numbers are significant or not, I just couldn't resist doing the math in my head.

 

Ooops! I was in a really long boring meeting at work, and re-thought my "no-math" math. I screwed up . I made the assumtion that since a bullet traveling at 300 fps would go 30 ft in 0.1 seconds, that the difference between bullets going 700 fps and 1,000 fps would be 0.1 seconds over 30 ft. This is incorrect. A bullet traveling at 700 fps will go 30 ft in 0.04 seconds while one traveling at 1,000 fps will do the same in 0.03 seconds. So the actual difference in travel time to a 30 ft target between the two would be 0.01 seconds. Difference in time to leave the barrel is about 0.0008 seconds.

 

 

Aaahh! You beat me to it Buck. I type too slow...

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Convincing yourself that ANYTHING is going to slow you down is POWERFUL medicine.

[Barkeep Casey]

So if I do not wait for the "ding" I can save .03 seconds per shot and over 120 rounds in a normal 5 stage match I can save 3.60 seconds! I got something I gotta practice

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

Ooops! I was in a really long boring meeting at work, and re-thought my "no-math" math. I screwed up . I made the assumtion that since a bullet traveling at 300 fps would go 30 ft in 0.1 seconds, that the difference between bullets going 700 fps and 1,000 fps would be 0.1 seconds over 30 ft. This is incorrect. A bullet traveling at 700 fps will go 30 ft in 0.04 seconds while one traveling at 1,000 fps will do the same in 0.03 seconds. So the actual difference in travel time to a 30 ft target between the two would be 0.01 seconds. Difference in time to leave the barrel is about 0.0008 seconds.

 

I agree....but I thought of it one millionth of a second faster than you. It makes all the difference in the world.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Yep between First and Only Second .....

 

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Wyandot Jim]

Well Pards,

I don't know where you come up with that 30' number for a rifle Target. The match I shot this weekend rifle targets were 40-50 YARDS some big some small and a couple of real small Bonus ones at the same range. Not all SHOOTS are up and close. Must be why they put that front sight thingie on the front of the barrel Sure were a lot of pards shooting under the targets. Geeeeeeeeeeee I wonder why. When they were hit it was VERY hard to hear because of the light loads so misses were called. It's all about Ft. Lbs. of energy

Like I said above my sights are on from 10-125 YARDS with a 1400FPS rifle round.

Do it the way best for you.

[Anvil Al #59168]

I shoot a heavyer faster rifle bullet, so the COUNTERS hear the ding.

[Guest Texas Jack Black]

NO

 

 

T J B

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Me too.

 

Actually, its not the speed a shooter can fire their rifle or pistol but rather the 'reaction time' for the shooter to shoot the next round.....IF that shooter is one of those shooters who have a habit of shooting subsequent shots based on the previous shot.

 

For example, I've been told by a retired quick draw expert that our reaction time is .250 (1/4 of a second). This is based on the ear to tell the brain that it just heard a hit AND time to react.

Thats about .125 for the brain to recognize what just happened and another .125 for the shooter to respond to what the brain just accepted.

 

NOW, ifn the math experts want to calculate those figures into every shot of each stage of a match, we all will have a better understanding why TOP SHOOTERS DO NOT SHOOT WHIMPY LOADS.....

 

And, my guess is that alot of top shooters don't listen to 'dings' anyhow.....but it does happen.

 

If you want to ever really understand how hard it is to get the brain trained to 'not interfere' with our shooting process, then try to shoot 10 shots in sub 2 time. The biggest obstacle wasn't having the speed to do it. The biggest obstacle was getting the brain to stop interfering with the process.

 

EDITED: I know this sounds like alot of bull and it may be so. But its my story and I'll stick to it...

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

Time to target:

30 ft. divided by 700 FPS = .0429

30 ft. divided by 1000 FPS = .0300

 

Difference in time to target .0129. Slightly over 1/100th of a second.

 

 

Time in 24" (2 ft) barrel:

2 ft. divided by 700 FPS = .0028

2 ft. divided by 1000 FPS = .0020

 

Difference in time in barrel .0008. I don't think 8/10,000th of a second is going to mess anybody up.

 

 

Ya'll do realize that a bullet travelling even 600 FPS is only a bit slower than the speed of sound at 1115 FPS? I think there is a bit of over analyzing going on. If you're worrying about how long it takes the bullet to get to the target, you should also consider the fact that it will take the sound of the "ding" .0269 (almost 3/100ths) of a second to come back to you.

 

Add to this that Deuce Stevens can put 10 rifle shots on target in 1.73 seconds as shown on Spencer's web site. That is 0.17 seconds to cycle the lever.

 

I am intrigued, so I guess I'll over think this a bit more, out loud. .....

T = 0.000 Shooter begins

T = 0.170 Cycle the lever and pull trigger

T = 0.340 Cycle the lever and pull trigger

 

so if you wait for the ding.....

T = 0.000 Shooter begins

T = 0.170 Cycle the lever and pull trigger

T = 0.200 Bullet hits target (takes 0.0300)

T = 0.227 Shooter hears ding (.200 + 0.0269)

T = 0.397 Cycle the lever and pull trigger (.227 + 0.17)

 

That is slower by ~17%. A big difference.

 

Bottom line, when its time to shoot ... shoot ... don't talk or verify hits or listen to dings.

 

That has got to be hard to do.

[Cypress Sun]

Scientific fact: The shooters who wait to hear the ding or watch for a miss...are wasting time...IMO.

 

CS

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I've figured on this one to the point that I'm convinced the solution is to make sound travel faster. We can accomplish this by shooting underwater where sounds travel over four times the speed it travels in air...but then there's the problem of the bullets traveling through water...and there's the problem with breathing. If it's not one thing, it's another.

 

My advice to a friend (and everyone is a friend): Shoot. Don't listen. If spotters can't hear hits, get new spotters. Match directors: If the targets are so far out that hits are being called as misses with legal loads, move the targets in. If you're not having some clean shooters, move the targets in. If nobody is showing up at your matches, move the targets in.

 

Hijack alert!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Match directors: If the targets are so far out that hits are being called as misses with legal loads, move the targets in. If you're not having some clean shooters, move the targets in. If nobody is showing up at your matches, move the targets in.

 

 

Buck, it is so simple and yet so many match directors just don't get it.

Or even worse, are proud of their results.

 

Personally I prefer my shooters to be happy - have fun and be successful.

[Cypress Sun]

I've figured on this one to the point that I'm convinced the solution is to make sound travel faster. We can accomplish this by shooting underwater where sounds travels over four times the speed it travels in air...but then there's the problem of the bullets traveling through water...and there's the problem with breathing. If it's not one thing, it's another.

 

My advice to a friend (and everyone is a friend): Shoot. Don't listen. If spotters can't hear hits, get new spotters. Match directors: If the targets are so far out that hits are being called as misses with legal loads, move the targets in. If you're not having some clean shooters, move the targets in. If nobody is showing up at your matches, move the targets in.

 

Hijack alert!

 

Actually there already is SASS.....Scuba Action Shooting Society. Google it if you don't believe me..........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, maybe there isn't....Probably would shoot arrows anyway.