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What is the Correct Call


The Virginia Kid - Life #35492

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You make the call as a RO. A shooter is wearing a cross draw holster on the left side. The RO is standing on the right side of the shooter because the shooter is going to be moving left after he shoots the rifle and shotgun so the shooter is moving right to <<<<<< left. There are two spotters on the right of the RO and one spotter standing on the left of the shooter. Here we go at the beep the shooter picks up his rifle shoots it puts it down action open and then picks up the shotgun shoots and puts them down on down on the prop action open and then turns to the left and move about ten steps, stops and pulls the left gun out of the cross draw holster without doing the dance and breaks the 170 and then pulls his right gun out of the strong side holster The only spotter that sees the shooter break the 170 is the one standing on the left side see the shooter. The shooter leaves the line. The RO ask the spotters for hits or misses. The spotter on the left of the shooter goes to the RO and informs the RO the shooter broke the 170 rule. The RO did not see the shooter break the 170 and ask the other two spotters that where on the right of the shooter to see if they saw the shooter break the 170 and they did not. What is the correct call that the RO should make? :o

 

(A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

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You make the call as a RO. A shooter is wearing a cross draw holster on the left side. The RO is standing on the right side of the shooter because the shooter is going to be moving left after he shoots the rifle and shotgun so the shooter is moving right to <<<<<< left. There are two spotters on the right of the RO and one spotter standing on the left of the shooter. Here we go at the beep the shooter picks up his rifle shoots it puts it down action open and then picks up the shotgun shoots and puts them down on down on the prop action open and then turns to the left and move about ten steps, stops and pulls the left gun out of the cross draw holster without doing the dance

and breaks the 170

and then pulls his right gun out of the strong side holster

The only spotter that sees the shooter break the 170 is the one standing on the left side see the shooter.

The shooter leaves the line. The RO ask the spotters for hits or misses.

The spotter on the left of the shooter goes to the RO and informs the RO the shooter broke the 170 rule.

The RO did not see the shooter break the 170 and ask the other two spotters that where on the right of the shooter to see if they saw the shooter break the 170 and they did not.

What is the correct call that the RO should make?

 

(A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

 

(A)

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Lets eliminate a few of the issues in this post first.

 

There is NO requirement to do any dance, so the lack of any such dance is moot.

Only ONE person is needed to call a safety or Procedural issue, so no one else seeing the infraction is moot.

 

If the person making the call is basing it on equipment choice and the lack of a dance - I will over rule their call.

 

If the person is making the call based on the direction of shooters movement, the positioning and angle of their holster, the positioning of their body at the time of draw and their belief that the shooter could not have drawn the pistol without breaking the 170 (and I agree with them) - I will over rule their call but (at some time) speak with the shooter and discuss the physics of what they are doing.

 

If the person making their call is doing so based on seeing the MUZZLE of the gun break the 170 - I will support their call.

 

Safeties and "P" are awarded on factual observation.

Not conjecture, supposition and "They must've" - The RO has to make sure this is the basis for any call and then award or disallow as appropriate.

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I would ask the spotter exactly where the barrel was pointed and when in the draw, during movement, or when stopped. If he starts into an answer about other things like "didn't do the dance" or whatever, I would likely not give the DQ. If spotter has a clear answer on where the gun pointed and when, and if in fact the barrel broke the 170, the shooter gets the DQ. Since I did not see the alleged penalty, I would ask for more information before making a decision based on one spotter's input.

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There is NO requirement to do any dance, so the lack of any such dance is moot.

 

+1. Many spotters do not understand the 170 degree zone and believe without the shooter doing the "dance" they are breaking the zone.

 

p.s. What is the fun with a bad call?

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Dance or not if he broke the 170 he broke the 170...

 

GG...(A)

 

I agree.. the spotter said he broke the 170.. seems enough said..

We are all safety officers.. I guess anybody standing to the left of the shooter

could have made the call.. spotter or not..

 

Rance <_<

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As quoted in the original post.

"stops and pulls the left gun out of the cross draw holster without doing the dance and breaks the 170"

 

I have great concern with a spotter quoting ;'w/o doing the dance" to support a call that has no bearing on the call.

 

If it was written stops and pulls the left gun and breaks the 170, then I am okay.

 

 

I agree that penalties should be awarded when earned, but I have a greater concern about unearned penalties being awarded.

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Until it is printed on the front page of the Chronicle in BOLD half page print that there is NO "DANCE" required for crossdraw shooters, this argument will continue. :angry:

 

:rolleyes: If the shooter actually broke the 170 degree barrier then whether or not he/she was using a crossdraw rig is TOTALLY IRELEVENT!!! :rolleyes:

 

If this predjudicial wording is allowed to continue while poorly positioned and incorrectly indexed "strong side" or "straight draw" rigs are given immunity from the same penalty, we will always UNFAIRLY HANDICAP what is for some an inherently safer equipment choice.

 

At any match that I attend, when the "DANCE" is mentioned in the safety meeting, I try to advise the members of whatever posse I shoot on of my method of presenting a pistol and get a clarification as to their intentions in making any safety calls. Ain't had to vote with my feet yet!!

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This could have been avoided by drawing the crossdraw while putting down the long gun, before even turning to move.

 

That being said, one of my fellow shooters thinks people can get away with breaking the 170 rule, just by doing the "dance". He feels that if folks see you twist they will assume you have not broken the 170 even if you do. "He did the dance..."

 

Fillmore

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... A shooter is wearing a cross draw holster on the left side. ... stops and pulls the left gun out of the cross draw holster without doing the dance and breaks the 170 and then pulls his right gun out of the strong side holster...

At the risk of revealing my own stupidness, how does this work? Seems like he has two guns in his right hand.

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The big question is if a shooter breaks the 170 with his pistol or any long gun and only one spotter sees it is. What is the call?

 

A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

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The big question is if a shooter breaks the 170 with his pistol or any long gun and only one spotter sees it is. What is the call?

 

A) The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Refer to THIS THREAD (post #16)...substitute "SAFETY PENALTY" for "PROCEDURAL".

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

 

 

There is no provision in the rules that allows a "warning" for an actual safety violation.

If the shooter comes CLOSE to breaking the 170º, s/he should be warned regarding MUZZLE CONTROL.

 

8. Spotters

...

B) Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body. Spotters are obligated to stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in position to see it or react quickly enough.

RO1 (pp. 9-10)
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The big question is if a shooter breaks the 170 with his pistol or any long gun and only one spotter sees it is. What is the call?

 

A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

 

(A)

Uh :huh: see post #2 A

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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spotter should have made the call when it happened. not waited, no call

 

Is that in the rule book?

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spotter should have made the call when it happened. not waited, no call

The spotter does NOT have control of the firing line and the shooter. That's the RO's job description. A spotter making an attempt to stop a shooter could be down right dangerous.

 

The spotter did exactly the right thing in waiting for the RO to poll the spotters for what they saw.

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The big question is if a shooter breaks the 170 with his pistol or any long gun and only one spotter sees it is. What is the call?

 

A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

I don't see you on here very often so you might not know that when PaleWolf quotes the rule, the argument is usually over...SDQ.

 

Fillmore

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A right handed shooter, crossdraw holster on the LEFT side, moving left......didn't "do the dance", I ain't surprised he got dinged fer breaking the 170!!!

 

It ain't the dance that is the issue, it's where the thing was pointed when he drew. If that one spotter saw that clearly broke the 170, good call.

 

Ain't no big thing the spotter waited to "make the call".

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I still hear safety briefing’s that tell you to do the dance...........should be simply watch your muzzle.

 

Ha! So do I...and yes, it drives me nuts!!!!

 

Then ya get those that think that a DANCE has to be performed in order to not violate the 170 rule...so I'd question anyone that states that a shooter broke the 170 cuz they didn't DANCE.

 

Ignorance can be a terrible thing.

 

:FlagAm:

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I think we are getting too caught up in the term "Dance". It's just a term, and that's all it is. Call it whatever you like, unless you "Turn", "Twist", or "Dance"(if you will), your going to break the 170, Unless of course you are headed in the correct direction to prevent it, like a Right Hander walking to and facing his right.

 

If you are walking to, and facing your left, there's no way a Right Hander can pull his/her Cross Draw without breaking the 170. When facing down range, you still have to "Turn", "Twist", or "Do the Dance" (as it's called), or you will break the 170. Simple as that.!!!

 

We need to get over the word "Dance". It's just an expression. Has nothing to do with the actual wording in the rule book. It means simply positioning your body to where you can pull your Cross Draw, without breaking the 170. If you don't thusly position your body, you WILL break the 170.

 

RBK, who Twists, Turns, and Dances. Not necessarily in that order.

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I think we are getting too caught up in the term "Dance". It's just a term, and that's all it is. Call it whatever you like, unless you "Turn", "Twist", or "Dance"(if you will), your going to break the 170, Unless of course you are headed in the correct direction to prevent it, like a Right Hander walking to and facing his right.

 

If you are walking to, and facing your left, there's no way a Right Hander can pull his/her Cross Draw without breaking the 170. When facing down range, you still have to "Turn", "Twist", or "Do the Dance" (as it's called), or you will break the 170. Simple as that.!!!

 

We need to get over the word "Dance". It's just an expression. Has nothing to do with the actual wording in the rule book. It means simply positioning your body to where you can pull your Cross Draw, without breaking the 170. If you don't thusly position your body, you WILL break the 170.

 

RBK, who Twists, Turns, and Dances. Not necessarily in that order.

 

Tell ya what - know what yer talkin about before you talk. No DANCE, TWIST, TURN is REQUIRED!!!!!!

 

Oy!!!!

 

:wacko:

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

If I am the RO/Marshal I advise my posse to watch their muzzle and not to worry about dancing.

 

Okay now what if the right handed shooter moves left while wearing a stupid looking crotch draw rig and draws the right hand revolver :blink:

 

Funny how some folks wanna see dancing on a cross draw but don't think a moment if the shooter is wearing two of them... :huh:

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Ok Phantom, You tell us how you draw a Cross Draw pistol thats sitting on a holster pointed 180 to the rear of the firing line without breaking the 170. It cannot LEGALLY be done.

 

RBK

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Ok Phantom, You tell us how you draw a Cross Draw pistol thats sitting on a holster pointed 180 to the rear of the firing line without breaking the 170. It cannot LEGALLY be done.

 

RBK

A holster that's pointed 180 to the rear of the firing line isn't a legal hanging holster in the 1st place. A legally hanging holster (crossdraw or straight) worn properly can certainly be drawn from without turning.

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If I am the RO/Marshal I advise my posse to watch their muzzle and not to worry about dancing.

 

 

oh yeah!

a big AMEN

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Ok Phantom, You tell us how you draw a Cross Draw pistol thats sitting on a holster pointed 180 to the rear of the firing line without breaking the 170. It cannot LEGALLY be done.

 

RBK

 

180 degrees to the...what?????

 

Your understanding of crossdraws and how they can and are worn worries me for it's folks that have your understanding or lack of that leads to poor calls.

 

Perhaps you need to revisit the rule books.

 

Cheers!

:FlagAm:

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