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What is the Correct Call


The Virginia Kid - Life #35492

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180 degrees to the...what?????

 

Your understanding of crossdraws and how they can and are worn worries me for it's folks that have your understanding or lack of that leads to poor calls.

 

Perhaps you need to revisit the rule books.Cheers! :FlagAm:

 

I think perhaps you do not understand just what I was saying.

 

Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his crossdraw before turning his body to be facing downrange. Cross Draw holsters do not hang straight down, and in fact are canted several degrees to the left, for a Right Handed shooter. With the body advancing left down the firing line, the holstered pistol is pointed a few degrees above straight down, and 180 degrees to the rear of the firing line.

 

Drawing the pistol while advancing to the left would not allow the muzzle to be within the 170.

 

We can do without the snide remarks, as I darn well know the rule books and don't have any missunderstanding of what they say.

 

RBK

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Lets eliminate a few of the issues in this post first.

 

There is NO requirement to do any dance, so the lack of any such dance is moot.

Only ONE person is needed to call a safety or Procedural issue, so no one else seeing the infraction is moot.

 

 

I agree!

 

If the person making the call is basing it on equipment choice and the lack of a dance - I will over rule their call.

I agree!!

 

If the person is making the call based on the direction of shooters movement, the positioning and angle of their holster, the positioning of their body at the time of draw and their belief that the shooter could not have drawn the pistol without breaking the 170 (and I agree with them) - I will over rule their call but (at some time) speak with the shooter and discuss the physics of what they are doing.

 

I disagree!! If everything you mentioned supports (the physics of the drawing of the cross draw) the breaking of the 170 rule, and you agree that it did, then call it.

 

If the person making their call is doing so based on seeing the MUZZLE of the gun break the 170 - I will support their call.

I agree!

Safeties and "P" are awarded on factual observation.

 

Not necessarily, there can be some exceptions and this is one of them. I should add, that it should be very strong evidence to support the call, either way and BOD should be considered as well.

 

Not conjecture, supposition and "They must've" - The RO has to make sure this is the basis for any call and then award or disallow as appropriate.

 

 

 

 

JMO

 

Blastmaster

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My wording would not be the same but my understanding would be in agreement with what I think RBK is saying. In the situation described, I do not think it is physically possible for a right handed shooter to legally draw from a cross draw while travelling or standing in a manner that requires him to be facing the left. To arrive at a body position to allow this he would have to go square to the line enough so that the RO and remaining two spotters can see what is actually happening. In this situation I would ask the three blind mice what the heck they were day dreaming about while the match was going on! It would take a human pretzel to do a legal twist when he is turned to the cross draw side. ARE we are talking about the same thing RBK?

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In the situation described, I do not think it is physically possible for a right handed shooter to legally draw from a cross draw while travelling or standing in a manner that requires him to be facing the left.

Did the spotter see the shooter break the 170? NOT does the spotter THINK that there was no way that he couldn't draw or holster without breaking the 170. NOT does the spotter think the shooter doesn't have Dancing With The Stars on his resume.

 

SIMPLE TEST: Did you witness the muzzle of the gun breaking the 170? That's a YES or NO.

 

NEXT SHOOTER

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My wording would not be the same but my understanding would be in agreement with what I think RBK is saying. In the situation described, I do not think it is physically possible for a right handed shooter to legally draw from a cross draw while travelling or standing in a manner that requires him to be facing the left. To arrive at a body position to allow this he would have to go square to the line enough so that the RO and remaining two spotters can see what is actually happening. In this situation I would ask the three blind mice what the heck they were day dreaming about while the match was going on! It would take a human pretzel to do a legal twist when he is turned to the cross draw side. ARE we are talking about the same thing RBK?

 

BINGO !!! You got it Sir!

 

Thank you for looking at this with an open mind.

 

RBK

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BINGO !!! You got it Sir!

 

Thank you for looking at this with an open mind.

 

RBK

 

Open mind...oooookay.

 

Betcha you thought folks had to dance regardless...but you'd not admit to it now.

 

Mentioning DANCE, TWIST, whatever, is showing ignorance as it means NOTHING. The only important thing is muzzle direction which I think you know. But some folks seem to automatically connect breaking the 170 with a x-draw if no DANCE is done. Then these same folks get on here and start with the harping about how x-drawer must DANCE and or TWIST.

 

Screw the DANCE, just call the 170 violation! Stop with the "Well, I didn't see him/her DANCE".

 

OY!

 

:FlagAm:

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21. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a revolver from a cross-draw or shoulder holster or returning the revolver to leather.

The user must twist their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170-degree safety rule during the process.

Failure to ensure the muzzle is always down range is grounds for an immediate stage disqualification.

SHB p.24

 

Re the OP (just to reiterate):

 

1) The shooter BROKE THE 170º rule. That is stated as a FACT. Any references to "dancing" are irrelevant.

2) Only one "line RO" (a spotter) was in a position to observe the violation.

3) That spotter informed the T/O that he had observed the violation.

4) T/O should consider that "input" from the spotter and assess the proper penalty.

 

The only "benefit of doubt" that should be considered would be if the T/O and/or another spotter were in a position to observed the action and could say that the violation did NOT occur.

In the OP there is NO DOUBT that the shooter broke the 170º.

 

BTW - It IS possible to draw/holster a revolver from a X-draw/shoulder rig on the UPrange side without incurring a penalty.

 

to Virginia Kid: Your idea of "fun" and mine ain't quite the same. :rolleyes:

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I only call a 170-infraction if the move was blatantly obvious or the shooters were warned beforehand about this chance of that being an issue on the stage. I have seen so many other 170-infractions not called:

-holstering a right gun while moving to the right

-pointing the gun past vertical when holstering, sometimes actually seeing up the barrel

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I think we are getting too caught up in the term "Dance". It's just a term, and that's all it is. Call it whatever you like, unless you "Turn", "Twist", or "Dance"(if you will), your going to break the 170, Unless of course you are headed in the correct direction to prevent it, like a Right Hander walking to and facing his right.

 

If you are walking to, and facing your left, there's no way a Right Hander can pull his/her Cross Draw without breaking the 170. When facing down range, you still have to "Turn", "Twist", or "Do the Dance" (as it's called), or you will break the 170. Simple as that.!!!

 

We need to get over the word "Dance". It's just an expression. Has nothing to do with the actual wording in the rule book. It means simply positioning your body to where you can pull your Cross Draw, without breaking the 170. If you don't thusly position your body, you WILL break the 170.

 

RBK, who Twists, Turns, and Dances. Not necessarily in that order.

 

Nah! Nevermind, it just ain't worth it!!

 

 

Did the spotter see the shooter break the 170? NOT does the spotter THINK that there was no way that he couldn't draw or holster without breaking the 170. NOT does the spotter think the shooter doesn't have Dancing With The Stars on his resume.

 

SIMPLE TEST: Did you witness the muzzle of the gun breaking the 170? That's a YES or NO.

 

NEXT SHOOTER

 

This is perhaps the most correct view of this situation that can be expressed. If the shooter is standing on his head and does not break the 170 degree barrier, IT IS A NO CALL!!!!!

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I think perhaps you do not understand just what I was saying.

 

Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his crossdraw before turning his body to be facing downrange. Cross Draw holsters do not hang straight down, and in fact are canted several degrees to the left, for a Right Handed shooter. With the body advancing left down the firing line, the holstered pistol is pointed a few degrees above straight down, and 180 degrees to the rear of the firing line.

 

Drawing the pistol while advancing to the left would not allow the muzzle to be within the 170.

 

We can do without the snide remarks, as I darn well know the rule books and don't have any missunderstanding of what they say.

 

RBK

ok .. of course i agree with Pale Wolf .... But, i would add, IFthis shooter was drawing from a strong side holster and "Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his " strong side" before turning his body to be facing downrange" , he also would have broken the 170 rule. i see this happening way too often and with all the emphasis on cross draw it is widely overlooked. BTW i use two strong side holsters.

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I only call a 170-infraction if the move was blatantly obvious or the shooters were warned beforehand about this chance of that being an issue on the stage. I have seen so many other 170-infractions not called:

-holstering a right gun while moving to the right-pointing the gun past vertical when holstering, sometimes actually seeing up the barrel

ok .. of course i agree with Pale Wolf .... But, i would add, IFthis shooter was drawing from a strong side holster and "Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his " strong side" before turning his body to be facing downrange" , he also would have broken the 170 rule. i see this happening way too often and with all the emphasis on cross draw it is widely overlooked. BTW i use two strong side holsters.

 

It is possible, and done all the time correctly, to safely holster a right gun while mmoving right or to safely draw a right gun while moving right.

BTW - It IS possible to draw/holster a revolver from a X-draw/shoulder rig on the UPrange side without incurring a penalty.

Holstering and drawing are NOT the test. Nor is "the dance" the test. Nor is "I don't THINK there is any way to YADA YADA YADA.

 

The test is simply: DID THE MUZZLE BREAK THE 170?

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ok .. of course i agree with Pale Wolf .... But, i would add, IFthis shooter was drawing from a strong side holster and "Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his " strong side" before turning his body to be facing downrange" , he also would have broken the 170 rule. i see this happening way too often and with all the emphasis on cross draw it is widely overlooked. BTW i use two strong side holsters.

That's just not true. If the strong side holster AND the cross-draw are straight hang holsters and worn as such, you can draw your guns any time you want to as long as you don't break the 180.

 

Fillmore

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Moving to the right and drawing from or re-holstering into a right side straight hang holster are NOT 170 violations. Same with a left side straight hang and moving to the left. Users of straight hang holsters MUST be allowed to draw and holster without penalty. NO matter which way they are facing or moving. It has ALWAYS been this way and must be this way. Otherwise no one could ever draw from a straight hang.

 

Amazing how many folks think you are in violation when drawing or re-holstering with a straight hang whilst on the move in ANY direction. It ain't and never has been.

 

We need to ditch it all and go with my "natural draw" concept: so long as you draw safely and naturally like humans have done for many moons and don't muzzle any other human you are good to go. Next best would be that cone concept but all the nanny nay-sayers can't comprehend it and it's great advantages over the 170 bizness we got now.

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Damn, the sky must be falling.......me and the Phantom on the same side of the fence...yikes!! (so how ya been Fantom?)

 

anyways, if ya want to confuse the issue, add to the quest, a LEFTY. so the crossdraw is on the right side, however the point remains.

 

1. If the shooter wears the crossdraw closer to the front of his belt, it is already pointed more in a safe zone, (if you don't think so put yer rig on and try it....

 

2. If the shooter (and I am using a left handed person as example so pay attention..) postitions his right foot foward of the left foot (toward the stage) that moves said holster even farther into the safety zone. effectively done, the shooter would not have to do a "dance", "twist' or any other body movement as the gun is already pointed away from the zone. (and if ya doubt it put yer rig on and try it...)

 

 

So, I also am not fond of using the "required dance", and often times I will slightly turn my hips just to insure I am in the safe area, but most of the time it isn't needed.

 

take care and happy turkey day.

 

curley

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The Big question is, if only One spotter sees a shooter break the 170 with the muzzel of his pistol is it a Stage DQ or a NO call since only ONE spotter saw it?

 

Should the RO call it a DQ or a NO call since only ONE spotter saw it? The Key word is ONE Spotter sees a shooter breaks the 170.

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The Big question is, if only One spotter sees a shooter break the 170 with the muzzel of his pistol is it a Stage DQ or a NO call since only ONE spotter saw it?

 

Should the RO call it a DQ or a NO call since only ONE spotter saw it? The Key word is ONE Spotter sees a shooter breaks the 170.

I am confused, the TO/RO can call a SOG, SDQ, MDQ, Safety or Procedural even if no spotters saw the infraction. Why would it be different for one spotter?

 

Sometimes the RO is just in a better position to see the infraction than any of the spotters.

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Stage DQ or a NO call[/b]5' post='2317488']

The Big question is, if only One spotter sees a shooter break the 170 with since only ONE spotter saw it?

 

Should the RO call it a DQ or a NO call since only ONE spotter saw it? The Key word is ONE Spotter sees a shooter breaks the 170.

Your question has been answered several times.

 

Stage DQ

Fillmore

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I think perhaps you do not understand just what I was saying.

 

Shooter is advancing to the left, from a position at the middle or right. Draws his crossdraw before turning his body to be facing downrange. Cross Draw holsters do not hang straight down, and in fact are canted several degrees to the left, for a Right Handed shooter. With the body advancing left down the firing line, the holstered pistol is pointed a few degrees above straight down, and 180 degrees to the rear of the firing line.

 

Drawing the pistol while advancing to the left would not allow the muzzle to be within the 170.

 

We can do without the snide remarks, as I darn well know the rule books and don't have any missunderstanding of what they say.

 

RBK

 

 

 

Having reread the entire thread, I think this highlighted passage says much about the lack of understanding of "crossdraw" holsters and the "crossdraw" method. A crossdraw holster CAN in fact, be of the straight hang design. A canted holster is just that, "canted"! I use a canted holster on my strong side because it helps to keep the muzzle pointed safely downrange for my draw and reholster. A holster becomes a crossdraw when it is moved to, or positioned on the "weak hand" side of the belt, (I don't say belt buckle because some folks buclke their rigs in the back). Given that the twist draw can be used on a butt forward holster rig, it is entirely possible to draw the pistol from a "crossdraw" holster while not facing directly down range.

 

As I have said before, the shooter who uses the crossdraw method is being automaticaly singled out and penalized because of the wording used and the preception that is constantly promoted by that wording and those who don't understand the the whole concept.

 

Until it becomes equally unacceptable to break the 170 degree barrier with that "straight hang" holster that is positioned behind the hip, (like the one John Wayne made famous) it seems that crossdraw shooters will continue to get the short, brown end of the stick. I can't count the number of times I've been swept with a loaded pistol while RO/TOing for someone who uses such a holster setup, but I assure you all it is a far greater number of times than I've had it happen with a shooter using a crossdraw.

 

In the final analisys, Brother King's assertion that the question is and only should be "Did the muzzle of the gun actually break the 170?" is correct, and the only criteria that should be considered, regardless of what style rig and what dicipline the shooter employs.

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The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

 

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

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The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

 

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

?? :huh: ??

 

(A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

+1 (A) I agree with this, and as a cross-draw shooter!! B)

Only ONE person is needed to call a safety or Procedural issue, so no one else seeing the infraction is moot.

Dance or not if he broke the 170 he broke the 170...

 

GG...(A)

I agree.. the spotter said he broke the 170.. seems enough said..

We are all safety officers.. I guess anybody standing to the left of the shooter

could have made the call.. spotter or not..

 

Rance <_<

 

There is no provision in the rules that allows a "warning" for an actual safety violation.

If the shooter comes CLOSE to breaking the 170º, s/he should be warned regarding MUZZLE CONTROL.

8. Spotters

...

B) Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots. Spotters will assist the Timer Operator by watching for violations when the competitor retrieves staged firearms and draws revolvers since it is impossible for the Timer Operator to have an unobstructed view of both sides of the competitor’s body. Spotters are obligated to stop a shooter from attempting an unsafe action if the Timer Operator is not in position to see it or react quickly enough.

RO1 (pp. 9-10)

Uh :huh: see post #2 A

 

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

 

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

 

PLEASE REFER TO POST #'s 2, 16, AND 42

ALSO POST #16 on THIS THREAD.

 

THERE ARE TWO ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTION.

ONE OF THEM IS CORRECT.

THE OTHER IS WRONG.

PICK ONE.

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USE YOUR WORDS! Or ASK SOMEONE TO READ IT TO YOU.

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...

I can't count the number of times I've been swept with a loaded pistol while RO/TOing for someone who uses such a holster setup, but I assure you all it is a far greater number of times than I've had it happen with a shooter using a crossdraw.

 

In the final analisys, Brother King's assertion that the question is and only should be "Did the muzzle of the gun actually break the 170?" is correct, and the only criteria that should be considered, regardless of what style rig and what dicipline the shooter employs.

 

How many times have you MDQ'd a shooter for doing so??

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(A)

 

 

SHB p.24

 

Re the OP (just to reiterate):

 

1) The shooter BROKE THE 170º rule. That is stated as a FACT. Any references to "dancing" are irrelevant.

2) Only one "line RO" (a spotter) was in a position to observe the violation.

3) That spotter informed the T/O that he had observed the violation.

4) T/O should consider that "input" from the spotter and assess the proper penalty.

 

The only "benefit of doubt" that should be considered would be if the T/O and/or another spotter were in a position to observed the action and could say that the violation did NOT occur.

In the OP there is NO DOUBT that the shooter broke the 170º.

 

BTW - It IS possible to draw/holster a revolver from a X-draw/shoulder rig on the UPrange side without incurring a penalty.

 

to Virginia Kid: Your idea of "fun" and mine ain't quite the same. :rolleyes:

 

 

The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

 

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

Dang Kid, PaleWolf gave you the correct answer in post #2 and #42, as well as many others. The correct answer is still A. He also referred you to another simular thread about calling a P. The answer is still it only takes one. If you didn't know PaleWolf is the final word on the RO rules. If you see his call in bold blue then that's official. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

 

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

Straight hang strong side holster shooters can draw or reholster and have the barrel vertical (i.e. at 180 degrees breaking the 170) with no penalty. They can do this no matter the direction they are moving or facing including uprange. The move immediately before or after the 180 or immediately after the 180 must be downrange within the 170. Many spotters do not understand this area so if one spotter makes a call the RO can ask questions of the spotter on what he saw. Based on the answer the RO can accept or reject the one spotters call.

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The big question is, if a shooter breaks the 170 with the muzzel of the pistol or long gun and only ONE spotter sees it .

What is the correct call dance or not?

A Stage DQ?

OR

B Since only ONE of the three spotters sees the shooter break the 170 the does the RO make it a NO CALL since two other spotters does not see it, dance or not?

I did not mean to cause the trouble with the dance. I would like to know if only ONE spotters sees a shooter break the 170 rule is it a DQ or not. Do you call it like you see it like it or not?

As has been said before, that question's been answered several times. In this thread and others. If one spotter sees and reports to the RO/TO that the 170º was broken by the shooter's muzzle, the RO/TO SHOULD report said violation to the scorekeeper. SDQ. It does not require a majority rule on such calls.

 

However, as has been discussed endlessly for the 25+ years I've played this game, the X-draw holster user gets short-shrift far too often just because he wears a X-draw. If the spotter in question has a known bias against X-draw holsters, I'd not likely take his word solely on said call... I might just call the shooter back and have him demonstrate his movements for me and others so that a fair and un-biased call can be made. I happen to wear a X-draw much of the time (well, ok, only when I'm shootin' smokeless), and have been told to watch my muzzle, etc... However, my shooting stance (Weaver) and holster location are such that my muzzle is pointing downrange, well inside the 170º while it's in my holster! Now, I've never been called for a 170º violation, but that doesn't mean I ain't been warned unnecessarily. It's also why in stages that require movement to my left (being a righty), if I choose to use my X-draw gun 1st, it is out before I ever start my movement in that direction, (under the scenario in the OP). But, in the interest of making sure my gun-handling is safe, I generally opt to use my strongside pistol first. The farther around their left-side a righty wears his X-draw, the more likely they are to have to make some sorta movement to keep that muzzle inside the 170º.

 

However, and it's a huge HOWEVER, the point the call can be made is the point at which the muzzle clears leather. It matters not where the muzzle is pointed as long as the muzzle itself is inside leather. For example, on my strong-side gun, when the stage calls for movement to the right, I will lift my strongside gun partially out of the holster, tilt it horizontally, and with it pointed nearly straight downrange, move it foward and out as I come to the shooting station and turn back into my weaver stance for shooting. Yes, I have swept myself... but since that ain't a violation, I'm within the rules. Yes, Goody, I have actually hurried thru a stage or two!!!

 

I have seen shooters that wear a straight-hang holster on their left hip, and used it as a X-draw... they have a huge movement to make sure that muzzle is inside the 170º when it clears the holster. In fact, I believe the 30º maximum cant from the verticle has made these calls more difficult.

 

BTW, Backwater Deperado, JW's famous rig is NOT a straight hang holster. If you look closely, you see that the muzzle is canted to the rear... so it is NOT a straight hang... and even more difficult to draw from and keep the muzzle inside the 170º.

 

IMO, we were much better off when we concentrated on when the hammer was cocked and keeping the finger out of the trigger guard until the gun was at least at a 45º from straight downrange.

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If the right handed shooter is standing at an angle, to the firing line, of 270* (facing left in relation to the firing line), he is going to almost surely break the 170* with any gun drawn from any holster with his right hand. Any angle that is less than square to the line, less than 360* flush-up, is going to require an almost pretzle bend and even almost surely require an added dance also. At any rate, if his hips have been brought this close into square with the shooting line, the RO and even the offside spotters should be able to see the cross draw as it happens. When one is square to the line, he must twist an additional 10* to get the gun into the 170 as it clears leather. This is one example of the rule favoring the strog side holster as it is given that 10* that the cross draw is not allowed!

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If the right handed shooter is standing at an angle, to the firing line, of 270* (facing left in relation to the firing line), he is going to almost surely break the 170* with any gun drawn from any holster with his right hand. Any angle that is less than square to the line, less than 360* flush-up, is going to require an almost pretzle bend and even almost surely require an added dance also. At any rate, if his hips have been brought this close into square with the shooting line, the RO and even the offside spotters should be able to see the cross draw as it happens. When one is square to the line, he must twist an additional 10* to get the gun into the 170 as it clears leather. This is one example of the rule favoring the strog side holster as it is given that 10* that the cross draw is not allowed!

 

Not sure I follow at all, but isn't it 5 degrees, a movement of 5 degrees gets him within the 170, which is really plus and minus 85 degrees from straight downrange.

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If the right handed shooter is standing at an angle, to the firing line, of 270* (facing left in relation to the firing line), he is going to almost surely break the 170* with any gun drawn from any holster with his right hand. Any angle that is less than square to the line, less than 360* flush-up, is going to require an almost pretzle bend and even almost surely require an added dance also. At any rate, if his hips have been brought this close into square with the shooting line, the RO and even the offside spotters should be able to see the cross draw as it happens. When one is square to the line, he must twist an additional 10* to get the gun into the 170 as it clears leather. This is one example of the rule favoring the strog side holster as it is given that 10* that the cross draw is not allowed!

 

 

Not sure I follow at all, but isn't it 5 degrees, a movement of 5 degrees gets him within the 170, which is really plus and minus 85 degrees from straight downrange.

 

Makes two of us Kid... almost sounds like he said you break the 170 anytime you don't stand square to the firing line and draw from a straight hang holster which we know ain't true. Mebe Bob could add slides.... :wacko:

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How many times have you MDQ'd a shooter for doing so??

 

Any time the subject has been broached I've been reminded that the shooter using a straight hang holster must be allowed the latitude to draw and reholster his/her pistol. I've subsequently refrained from bringing it up. Until such time as the disparity between the straight hang and crossdraw methods are made, by rule equal, there will always be the problem of proper enforcement of the 170 degree rule. Many straight hang users are by the defacto situation being allowed to draw and reholster their guns with impunity.

 

 

If the right handed shooter is standing at an angle, to the firing line, of 270* (facing left in relation to the firing line), he is going to almost surely break the 170* with any gun drawn from any holster with his right hand. Any angle that is less than square to the line, less than 360* flush-up, is going to require an almost pretzle bend and even almost surely require an added dance also. At any rate, if his hips have been brought this close into square with the shooting line, the RO and even the offside spotters should be able to see the cross draw as it happens. When one is square to the line, he must twist an additional 10* to get the gun into the 170 as it clears leather. This is one example of the rule favoring the strog side holster as it is given that 10* that the cross draw is not allowed!

 

Bob, shouldn't the angle be 5 degrees? It is I believe 170 degrees from 5 degrees forward of 180 from either side.

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You make the call as a RO. A shooter is wearing a cross draw holster on the left side. The RO is standing on the right side of the shooter because the shooter is going to be moving left after he shoots the rifle and shotgun so the shooter is moving right to <<<<<< left. There are two spotters on the right of the RO and one spotter standing on the left of the shooter. Here we go at the beep the shooter picks up his rifle shoots it puts it down action open and then picks up the shotgun shoots and puts them down on down on the prop action open and then turns to the left and move about ten steps, stops and pulls the left gun out of the cross draw holster without doing the dance and breaks the 170 and then pulls his right gun out of the strong side holster The only spotter that sees the shooter break the 170 is the one standing on the left side see the shooter. The shooter leaves the line. The RO ask the spotters for hits or misses. The spotter on the left of the shooter goes to the RO and informs the RO the shooter broke the 170 rule. The RO did not see the shooter break the 170 and ask the other two spotters that where on the right of the shooter to see if they saw the shooter break the 170 and they did not. What is the correct call that the RO should make? :o

 

(A)The shooter is given a Stage DQ for breaking the 170 rule.

 

Or is it

 

(B) Since only one spotter out of three and the RO did not see the shooter break the 170 rule, the RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage.

RO makes it a no call and gives the shooter a warning to make sure he does the dance on the next stage. if two or more spotters call it it happened ,if only one spotter see's it and the other too don't and the RO don't it did not happen.

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I can't count the number of times I've been swept with a loaded pistol while RO/TOing for someone who uses such a holster setup, but I assure you all it is a far greater number of times than I've had it happen with a shooter using a crossdraw.
How many times have you MDQ'd a shooter for doing so??

Any time the subject has been broached I've been reminded that the shooter using a straight hang holster must be allowed the latitude to draw and reholster his/her pistol. I've subsequently refrained from bringing it up. Until such time as the disparity between the straight hang and crossdraw methods are made, by rule equal, there will always be the problem of proper enforcement of the 170 degree rule.

Many straight hang users are by the defacto situation being allowed to draw and reholster their guns with impunity.

...

 

That is neither the intent, nor the proper application of the "straight hang" exception.

The ONLY allowance is for the muzzle to be at 180º (pointed straight DOWN) as it clears the mouth of the holster; then into the 170º DOWNrange "cone". (and vice versa when re-holstering).

 

The allowance does NOT give a shooter leeway to point the muzzle UPrange beyond the 180 and certainly does NOT allow the shooter to SWEEP ANYONE with the muzzle of a firearm, LOADED or otherwise.

 

Shooters shall adhere to the following safety rules:

1. Treat and respect every firearm at all times as if it were loaded.

2. Muzzle direction is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time. Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match. A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for disqualification from the stage, and for repeated offenses, from the match.

SHB p.22/RO1 p.15

 

1. Every firearm must be treated with respect! Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of an empty gun will result in a Stage Disqualification. Covering or sweeping an individual or group with the muzzle of a loaded gun will result in a Match Disqualification.
RO1 p.15
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