Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 After shooting in an annual shoot this last weeend in Nevada that had Wild Bunch shooters mixed in with the regular catagories, I've changed my mind on if this is a good practice. I was definately AGAINST it before, but now don't really see a problem. The only thing is educating everyone on the posse about the differences. I was amazed that a lot of shooters don't really know much about WB and the differences in that style of shooting. I personally don't shoot it, but it was a nonissues IMHO with them in our posse. Added a lot of interesting twists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 We've done it for a while. We typically make sure that anyone wanting to shoot WB is on a posse that has a leader who is a WB shooter. As you said, the primary problem is getting the other posse members to understand the variances, such as loading the '97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 After shooting in an annual shoot this last weeend in Nevada that had Wild Bunch shooters mixed in with the regular catagories, I've changed my mind on if this is a good practice. I was definately AGAINST it before, but now don't really see a problem. The only thing is educating everyone on the posse about the differences. I was amazed that a lot of shooters don't really know much about WB and the differences in that style of shooting. I personally don't shoot it, but it was a nonissues IMHO with them in our posse. Added a lot of interesting twists. If they were shooting cowboy stages then they weren't Wild Bunch shooters, they were cowboy shooters using 1911s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Well I guess thats what it was..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hi Folks, After shooting some of Pecos Clyde's stages for WBAS, I see a big difference in WBAS and CAS. However, I can also see mixing them as the rules are very similar. Yes to the comment that the TO must know WBAS. It will be a long while, if ever, that I will feel competent to TO WBAS. The TO must be really focused to the extreme in WBAS, especially if the pistols are split. After becoming a WBAS addict myself, if we did not already have a dedicated WBAS club, I could support shooting WB at a CAS match in an effort to draw new shooters to CAS and WBAS and to gain enough support to start a dedicated WBAS club, which should be the ultimate goal. So far, we have one or two posses at the WBAS matches, depending on the weather and conflicting annual matches. That is only slightly less than attendance at our most sparsely attended CAS club, which has two other clubs shooting the same day or weekend. One reason I am so enamored with WBAS is that Hubby can shoot it. He has peripheral neuropathy, which is less of a problem with a stoked '97, pump rifle, and a 1911. Another reason is that arthritis in my cocking thumb is getting worse and there is no cocking with a 1911. I can still wear costumes and enjoy the camaraderie of a SASS-like event. As I am with SASS, I'm all for attempts to spread the word and fun of WBAS! Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRISH RED 4882 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Philly, Before putting forward an opinion, your attendance might be required. I was there and had a great time shooting W.B. as did others. Please rember that opinions are like a******* every body has one. Irish Red The amazing man in GREEN. S.A.S.S. 4882 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 At the clubs I shoot at the put wild Bunch on a single posse. Then the wild bunch folks have a diiferent course of fire than the cowboys. Wild bunch load the 97 mag with 6 rounds, fire 20 rounds handgun ammo instead of 10 and have 6 shotgun knockdowns instead of 4. Several folks also bring both sets of guns and shoot it cowboy and wild bunch. I don't see any problem and it works just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Howdy I have shot Wild Bunch on the same posse with regular CAS shooters. Actually the club I do it at calls it Pike category. No problems at all. It is important though that the RO be competent in how a 1911 differs from a SAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 One club I shoot at offers wild bunch as a category for the 5th Saturday shoots, and WB shoot with the regular posses. I don't have a problem with that. As some have said, that is folks shooting a CAS match with WB guns, from what I understand a true WB match is much different. I would not however be in favor of mixed cowboy and WB posses on a regular basis, and certainly not at an annual or above level match. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Philly, Before putting forward an opinion, your attendance might be required. I was there and had a great time shooting W.B. as did others. Please rember that opinions are like a******* every body has one. Irish Red The amazing man in GREEN. S.A.S.S. 4882 Hey Red, Was a pleasure shooting with you (we were on the same Posse). Had a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The only real problem I see is that it might interfere with the Old West Feng Shui of the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 If they were shooting cowboy stages then they weren't Wild Bunch shooters, they were cowboy shooters using 1911s And what makes that distinction? I know at least a couple of clubs that have been doing this for over 10 years. I know several more clubs doing this today. These clubs now use all the latest Wild Bunch rules from the loading table to the unloading table while doing so. The stages might be different than some Wild Bunch unique matches, but same guns, same rules as WB, darn good practice I would think. It is interesting to note that when clubs do this I have never seen a shooter shooting Wild Bunch win overall. They are scored in a separate category so no one can complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRISH RED 4882 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Big Sage, I enjoyed shooting with you as well sir. We had a good time and a lot of fun. I hope that you folks had a good trip home and am looking forward to seeing you down the trail. Irish Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Boddems Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And what makes that distinction? I know at least a couple of clubs that have been doing this for over 10 years. I know several more clubs doing this today. These clubs now use all the latest Wild Bunch rules from the loading table to the unloading table while doing so. The stages might be different than some Wild Bunch unique matches, but same guns, same rules as WB, darn good practice I would think. It is interesting to note that when clubs do this I have never seen a shooter shooting Wild Bunch win overall. They are scored in a separate category so no one can complain. distances would be the main difference as well as round count. wb targets are a minimum 7 yard pistol and the rifle is a lot of 25 yard or further with the target size not nearly as generous as cowboy. that said it's still fun and trigger time.-dusty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustyfinger 22618 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Just my 2 cents.wild bunch,is a side match or a match on it's own.it is not a cowboy catagory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irish Tom Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The only real problem I see is that it might interfere with the Old West Feng Shui of the range. MMMMMMMMMMM, FENG SHUI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 NO......Wild Bunch is and was meant to be a Separate SIDE MATCH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 And what makes that distinction? I know at least a couple of clubs that have been doing this for over 10 years. I know several more clubs doing this today. These clubs now use all the latest Wild Bunch rules from the loading table to the unloading table while doing so. The stages might be different than some Wild Bunch unique matches, but same guns, same rules as WB, darn good practice I would think. It is interesting to note that when clubs do this I have never seen a shooter shooting Wild Bunch win overall. They are scored in a separate category so no one can complain. SASS spells it out in the Wild Bunch RO/MD Handbook: Philosphy of Wild Bunch Matches Wild Bunch matches are typified by the use of large caliber firearms, high power factor ammunition, and high round count for each stage. Wild Bunch stages require different target placement, engagement sequences, and prop locations than normal CAS stages. As has been said many times and many ways; Wild Bunch is Wild bunch, it's NOT CAS with 1911s. So, if you're shooting the same stages as other CAS shooters then you're NOT shooting Wild Bunch. These are not my words, these are the words of the folks that own the name and make the rules. It's really no sweat off my nose because I'm not even interested in shooting Wild Bunch, I'm just a messenger who's trying to spread the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Rodgers Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 No problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Howdy I have shot Wild Bunch on the same posse with regular CAS shooters. Actually the club I do it at calls it Pike category. No problems at all. It is important though that the RO be competent in how a 1911 differs from a SAA. I have shot at the same club that Driftwood refers to, and it has never been a problem, and winds up being a lot of fun. At this point though, I have to point out that there are basically 2 type of Wild Bunch Shooting. SASS Rules WB and clubs that have doing Wild Bunch long before SASS came up with its rules, and have continued to do it the same way they always have. When you have rules that predate the SASS offical ones, mixing CAS and WB can become a lot of easier, depending on how it is done. I'll leave it at that for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hey, Irish Red and Big Sage, I had a lot of fun at the Wild West Extravaganze shoot in Pahrump also, and appreciate both of you as fellow posse members. As far as I'm concerned there were no issues with the guys shooting WB, other than finding the pistol brass. However, the only difference was that they could pre-load the 97s and were allowed no shotgun make-ups, and they shot the pistol sequence twice. It looked a lot like CAS with 1911s to me. Nasty Newt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Nasty, Look forward to shooting with you again down the trail somewhere. Had a blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have to be careful here because a discussion of "Wild bunch" got me suspended for a year from a club. So my thoughts are that Wild Bunch should NEVER be mixed with Cowboy Action Shooters. We are shooting Cowboy, That means Revolvers, not semi-automatics. You want to shoot Wild Bunch, shoot in a Wild Bunch Match. All I've got to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Y'all just get over it. Wild Bunch is a ton of fun. Whether it's shot on a regular SASS format or a specifically set WBAS stage. What's the point of fighting each other about having fun with guns? It's not like we're short on space or dressed differently. Get a life. Let others enjoy theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August West, SASS #45079 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Great discussion! It is good when people speak from their experience, rather than their prejudices. In addition to a competent R/O, the stage writer must plan for places to ground the pistol where ever, and when ever it might malfunction. In other words, you might have to have more tables on the range than you do in a traditional cowboy match. Since you cannot "hand-off" guns in WB, the shooter, herself, must ground the gun. Other than that, I've experienced no problems with mixing them in. Now, you might ask, why would you want to do that??? Well, if you've got shooters in your area that would be competitive with the WB Big Boys, if only they could get some practice, you might want to help them out but letting them shoot sometimes at your regular matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bottom Dealin Mike, SASS #22273 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Our club does an annual 1911 match...doesn't strictly follow the WB rules to the letter. Shooters doing the 1911 are on the same posse as shooters with SA revolvers. We have no problem, and it is a fun match. One observation. At this year's match, only six or seven of us elected to shoot 1911s. The interesting thing is that all the club's regular black powder shooters were the ones who shot 1911s that day. I thought that was interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Now, you might ask, why would you want to do that??? Well, if you've got shooters in your area that would be competitive with the WB Big Boys, if only they could get some practice, you might want to help them out but letting them shoot sometimes at your regular matches. And that right there is one of the major reasons that they should NOT be mixed. You're doing those shooters a major disservice by getting them used to shooting regular CAS stages and THINKING they're ready to be competitive with the WB Big Boys. You don't hop in a go-cart and call that practice for the Indy 500. Brother King, I'm all for more shooting. The more shooting the more fun. I'm certainly not trying to interfere with anybody's fun. What I'm TRYING to do is help Wild Bunch grow. I fear that people getting used to shooting CAS stages is going to hurt Wild Bunch in the long run because as August West just stated, these people then think they'll be competitive in a real WB match. They'll spend hard earned $$$ and maybe travel a great distance only to find out they've been mislead. How do you think those shooters will then feel and what do you think their attitude will then be toward Wild Bunch? I see this as being fine and dandy in the short term but I fear it will cause long term damage to Wild Bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Hey Philly, I know what you are saying. A friend of mine who had been shooting at a new WBAS club for a year went to Winter Range and shot WB there. She said it wasn't fun, it was too grueling, and the targets were too small and far. The MD of the local club has started using some of Pecos Clyde's stages and his own are more along those lines now. I haven't heard what she thinks now. I really like the differences from CAS. However, they may be too grueling for some folks. I know I am extremely tired and the matches last about an hour and a half to two hours longer than our CAS matches. I'm hoping they will get me in shape. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 At the Texas State WB Champeenship match the other day it took on average one hour per stage. The other posse may have taken even a bit longer. Same size posse back home just shootin' reg'lar cowboy takes maybe half that long. Ideally two different games with disparate courses of fire. I have to shoot WB on reg'lar cowboy stages around here due to lack of interest and participation. But that is not optimum practice for a real WB match. That showed in my next to last place finish at state. It is what it is, better than nothing, but I hate it when I am the only WB shooter on WB day (every 5th Saturday). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 You don't hop in a go-cart and call that practice for the Indy 500. How do you think those shooters will then feel and what do you think their attitude will then be toward Wild Bunch? I see this as being fine and dandy in the short term but I fear it will cause long term damage to Wild Bunch. Whose fantasy is this? That's exactly how I rode my 1st scooter at 9. Here's what i think they'll feel.... recoil. 6 mag changes on one stage is a bugger if you've never done 3 at the home club. Some will like it and some won't... what's new? Are we like your children now, Philly? We have to be protected from the big league players? Did someone appoint you or are you just single-handedly protecting SASS from the big meanies at WBAS? (<<<<----- Philly the Masked Marauder) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 At the Texas State WB Champeenship match the other day it took on average one hour per stage. The other posse may have taken even a bit longer. Same size posse back home just shootin' reg'lar cowboy takes maybe half that long. ). That is what I have seen as a not shooter watching WB, it takes twice the time to complete the course shooting WB. I don't want to hang around all day to shoot a five stage match with WB being mixed in. I think WB and Cowboy should be shoot on different days and not intermixed. Different rules for each is reason enough. Both great sports but not shot on the same stage, same day. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Graham, # 26112 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 A friend of mine who had been shooting at a new WBAS club for a year went to Winter Range and shot WB there. She said it wasn't fun, it was too grueling, and the targets were too small and far. For clubs that have been doing Wild Bunch for years before SASS made rules for it, decisions need to be made. Most of the clubs in this part of the country have elected to keep the same rules we had which align more closely with the way cowboys shoot, allows more options for the guns to be used and offers lots more costuming options. Not a slam on WBAS Official Version but you have to pay attention to what your members and guests want or turnout will suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 Did someone appoint you or are you just single-handedly protecting SASS from the big meanies at WBAS? (<<<<----- Philly the Masked Marauder) Funny you should ask. After the Convention last year I was asked to help grow Wild Bunch. One of the ways was to get my club to host the Nevada Stage WB Championship. We did that and by most accounts that I've heard, it was one of the best Wild Bunch matches ever. On the other hand, there were folks there that had no idea what a real Wild Bunch match was like. After two days they were wiped out and had lost most all interest in ever doing it again. That's a sad state of affairs, especially since it could be prevented. As far as protecting anyone, why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't ANYBODY. I've seen it and Allie Mo has gave another example of exactly what I feared. That type of scenario repeated many times over will kill Wild Bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 I am still against it. Think it should be different matches. As does the SASS big wigs. BUT. That would not stop me from going someplace that does it. Or from having fun while there. But would stil vote NO. If it came up for club vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 If Wild Bunch expects to grow from CAS shooters, then having things set up to be too difficult or too tiring on the shooters is maybe not the best alternative. Allowing shooters to compete using Wild Bunch equipment and WB rules at CAS monthly matches allows them to put their toe in the water, get some practice with the unique rules,handling and reloading their 1911s, and then decide if they really want to compete in a more difficult WB major match. Last weekend, my son shot a monthly match where he shot each stage twice, once using WB gear and once using CAS gear. Others did the same gearing up for a WB only 2 day match next weekend. It was good practice. This club has been shooting WB occasionally before it was a SASS thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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