New 45 loads

[ORNERY OAF]

Gents, due to work issues, I will be doing some part time commuting and staying in an apartment a couple days a week. I've been noodling this issue for a while and I came up with the best option, in my opinion for self defense loads. I thought 12g 4 buck? 12g frangible, 45acp frangible, but all seemed bad. So I made up some all lead 45 acp hollowpoints, 250g. Used 4.5g green dot, should be 750ish fps. Plenty enough for a night time marauder but still not a big risk of over penetration.what says the peanut gallery, as many of you have A ton more experience with the 45acp and reduced loads. I've never had to worry about over penetration on the farm but now in an apartment, I think it's a real concern.

[ORNERY OAF]

Runs perfect out the old tisas gi

[Eyesa Horg]

The way things are today, I'd think twice about using reloads for self defense. JMHO

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

5 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The way things are today, I'd think twice about using reloads for self defense. JMHO

The old thing about "Using reloads for self defence" is more internet myth than anything else. It started with Massad Ayoob telling about a court case he was involved in. It seems that a woman shot somebody with loads her husband had made up. The problem was that he gave her several DIFFERENT loads for the gun and couldn't account for the one she shot the guy with. 

If you keep good records for your loads, and are able to state you concerns about overpenetration, I'd think that you'd be okay. 

Now for the disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, never played one on TV, and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn. Take this for exactly what it cost you.

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

The old thing about "Using reloads for self defence" is more internet myth than anything else. It started with Massad Ayoob telling about a court case he was involved in. It seems that a woman shot somebody with loads her husband had made up. The problem was that he gave her several DIFFERENT loads for the gun and couldn't account for the one she shot the guy with. 

If you keep good records for your loads, and are able to state you concerns about overpenetration, I'd think that you'd be okay. 

Now for the disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer, never played one on TV, and haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn. Take this for exactly what it cost you.

I certainly agree with your line of thought here. I also think the odds for most of us to ever have to shoot someone is relatively minimal. With all the factory personal defense rounds available, I just think that, a better choice. 

That Murphy fella or the Mayhem guy on TV always show up for once in a lifetime moments and you're gonna have enough to worry about if you drop somebody. Thugs included.

[ORNERY OAF]

Mas Ayoob, the be all know all instructor has court knowledge as he is an expert in everything gun related....granted he worked part time for a police department in a town of 2500 people in New Hampshire and has never fired a shot in self defense. I can only go off my own experiences in courts and critical incidents. The only ammo question I've ever heard is why does your department issue hollowpoints...of course the chance of having to fire your weapon in self defense is extremely low, but it does happen and you need to be as prepared as you possibly can. 

[Blackwater 53393]

At the point where I have to defend my life and property, if it goes “BANG!” and pokes a hole in my assailant, I’m good with that!!

 

I’ll deal with the rest from the standpoint of “I’m alive because I had sufficient means to defend myself!” Everything else, in the grand scheme of things, is Inconsequential Bullsh!t!!

[Chantry]

I live a condo and I've spent a fair amount of time thinking about this and I'm still questioning the choices

 

I suspect even those .45 ACP loads are going to over penetrate, but that will depend on what the walls are made of, which applies to any answer.

 

Quite sometime ago Federal sold a 12 gauge self defense load that was 1 1/4 oz of #2 shot @1140 fps.  For ME that is the correct choice for MY situation.

 

Regarding the use of hand loads for self defense I choose not to.  This could very well depend on what state of the country you live in on whether the use of hand loads will hurt you in court or not.  In Connecticut it's likely to be unhelpful

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

29 minutes ago, Chantry said:

In Connecticut it's likely to be unhelpful

If Connecticut is like the rest of New England, I suspect that the sheer audacity to have the means to defend yourself from an attacker will be unhelpful. 

However the OP is in Ohio, where it might go well for him if he does need to do so. 

[Henry T Harrison]

In a clean shoot it shouldn’t matter what you use. In a marginal shoot little details can become very important. I don’t carry hand loads and I’m very conscious of what’s on my gun grips. My carry guns are also pretty much bone stock 

Edited January 26 by Henry T Harrison

[Texas Joker]

There is simply penetration.

 

If it won't go through drywall how is it supposed to stop a threat?  If your state would not let you hunt deer with it its probably ly not going to stop a 200 pound intruder.

 

I second Blackwaters sentiment if I am in fear for my life I am going to use it regardless.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Use a lite birdshot load in the SG.

You don't want it passing through the wall.

Never use reloads for SD.

Every rnd you fire is a possible lawsuit and criminal charge. 

I say this as one who has survived 2 gunfights....

[Chantry]

1 hour ago, Texas Joker said:

There is simply penetration.

 

If it won't go through drywall how is it supposed to stop a threat?  If your state would not let you hunt deer with it its probably ly not going to stop a 200 pound intruder.

 

I second Blackwaters sentiment if I am in fear for my life I am going to use it regardless.

 

 

 

#9 shot will go all the way through drywall if you are close enough.

 

You are free to choose what you think suits YOU.  And you're also the one that will face manslaughter charges if you miss or if your bullet goes all the way through the attacker and kills an innocent bystander.

 

Federal, presumably with lots of testing, decided that #2 shot would penetrate enough to stop an attacker, but not so much that that it would retain enough energy to penetrate multiple walls.  This load is not an all around shotgun load.  It is meant for short distances, about 30 feet or so, with the possibility of innocent people being present.

 

In THEORY frangible rounds might be ideal for home self defense, but I have not found enough information to confirm that theory.

Edited January 26 by Chantry

[Chantry]

1 hour ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

If Connecticut is like the rest of New England, I suspect that the sheer audacity to have the means to defend yourself from an attacker will be unhelpful. 

However the OP is in Ohio, where it might go well for him if he does need to do so. 

Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine haven't been fully corrupted yet, but CT, MA, RI and parts of NY have been

[Pat Riot]

What are your other options for firearms that you’re willing to use at your apartment? Is your 1911 .45 ACP your only option?

I ask because if you use a factory round that had been tested and verified by professionals that it’s a viable defense round without over penetration it would show any DA or police officer that you used due diligence in your search for a defensive round. 
When asked about what you used to shoot Joe Badguy it wouldn’t be a round approved by a bunch of guys on a forum. 
 

Check out this link. It’s got information on a bunch of SD & HD ammo that clearly shows bullet performance and penetration. Check it out. It’s definitely worth reading and checking out ammo you may be interested in for defensive purposes. 
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

[Sedalia Dave]

Any pistol round that would be lethal to an intruder is going to easily penetrate drywall.  Federal HST and Speed Gold Dot in 45 ACP will pass through 16 to 17 layers of 5/8" drywall. In every test they both failed to expand. 

 

The same is true for frangible rounds. They'll pass through 4 layers of 5/8" drywall and still be lethal. 

 

Your cast lead HP is going to do the exact same thing. Even shooting a reduced power hand load, it is going to pass through at least a dozen 5/8" sheets without expanding. If cast in a soft alloy like 20:1 it may deform some but it is still going to be lethal after passing through a couple of walls.

 

As Chantry pointed out your best round would be #2 or #4 bird shot. Even that is going to penetrate 2 layers of drywall.

 

The best option is don't miss. Federal 45 ACP 230 gr HST is likely the best SD ammo on the market. And if you hit the bad guy its not going to over penetrate.

[watab kid]

3 hours ago, ORNERY OAF said:

Mas Ayoob, the be all know all instructor has court knowledge as he is an expert in everything gun related....granted he worked part time for a police department in a town of 2500 people in New Hampshire and has never fired a shot in self defense. I can only go off my own experiences in courts and critical incidents. The only ammo question I've ever heard is why does your department issue hollowpoints...of course the chance of having to fire your weapon in self defense is extremely low, but it does happen and you need to be as prepared as you possibly can. 

they say if you need an expert witness all you need is to offer enough to make them comfortable spending the time in court , im not in any way going to take issue with his expertise , but the day i met him at our gunclub he was asking a lot of folks i knew that knew what they were talking about a lot of questions about things he should have known about based on his articles , he has extensive writing experience in the industry , but mostly its reviews of firearms that come off as last century's infomercials , not that its bad - we all gotta make a living , he does that well and has been published continuously for a long time , i read his stuff with interest , 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I like these. 250gr 

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

Wow I have learn't a lot reading this thread , especially regarding reloads for self defence.

[watab kid]

we dont do a lot of self defence stuff in this game we are more about steel targets at fairly close range and complicated [or not] sequences of shooting them , 

[ORNERY OAF]

7 hours ago, watab kid said:

we dont do a lot of self defence stuff in this game we are more about steel targets at fairly close range and complicated [or not] sequences of shooting them , 

I agree, but we do get a decent sence of gun handling and God willing a good base on gun safety. There is a lot of different pards and pardettes here, all with experiences, that's why I like to throw a sort of opinion thread up every now and the. Yes you do get the stupid answers from a know it all or two but ypu can also get gold from folks that have been there and done that. Just gotta weed thru.

[bgavin]

If trouble comes, it will no doubt come in the PRK first.

It will come in the form of ANTIFA/BLM, and most likely with Molotov cocktails in the street in front of my house.
In this instant, one faces a life-changing decision:  get burned out or destroyed by the State when you shoot the terrorist trying to burn you out.

I figure the 870 pump, extended magazine and buckshot will be the tool of choice.

This, followed by the 1911 with Lehigh Controlled Fracturing bullets.

[watab kid]

14 hours ago, ORNERY OAF said:

I agree, but we do get a decent sence of gun handling and God willing a good base on gun safety. There is a lot of different pards and pardettes here, all with experiences, that's why I like to throw a sort of opinion thread up every now and the. Yes you do get the stupid answers from a know it all or two but ypu can also get gold from folks that have been there and done that. Just gotta weed thru.

ok , that makes sense of it , now i get where you were going with this thread , i agree thgere are a lot of folks from all sorts of life backgrounds here and a great source of information , hope you get what you desire , 

[J.D. Daily]

On 1/25/2024 at 4:16 PM, Texas Joker said:

There is simply penetration.

 

If it won't go through drywall how is it supposed to stop a threat?  If your state would not let you hunt deer with it its probably ly not going to stop a 200 pound intruder.

 

I second Blackwaters sentiment if I am in fear for my life I am going to use it regardless.

 

 

From the YouTube penetration tests I've viewed the cartridge the penetrated least were 12ga bird shot & 55 grain  223.  223 does go through one interior wall but only dents the next sheet it hits.   That suggests using 5.7X28 for a handgun if one is worried about over penetration in home defense situation.

Also, unless you use a reload formula that has been ballistically tested how can you be sure of the real world situation performance.  The cost of factory self defense loads is well worth the peace of mind.  Even though my nearest neighbor is 450 ft, away my the G19 I keep at the front door in a shelf gun hide & the 4 extra loaded magazines  a filled with Winchester 147 grain Silvertip.  The misses & I practice with 147 grain FMJ. 

[Texas Joker]

One of the things people seem to not consider in these discussions is that when you expose a firearm in any situation you have brought DEADLY FORCE to bear.

 

Regardless of the load or the intention you got a gun and pointed it at whatever was threatening you.

 

Suppose birdshot outside contact range each pellet loses inertia and force very quickly. Making it an  ineffective load.

 

If birdshot were an effective manstopper without 'overpenetration' wouldn't ALL agencies load it in their shotguns?

 

They don't because once the shot column starts to spread the pellets don't PENETRATE. Penetration is minimal but life altering injuries like blindness and disfiguration can get you sued. Aggressor is Live but disfigured. And you brought deadly force to the event.  

 

Perhaps a taser or foaming bear spray would better suit an apartment dweller?