Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Just wondering: While holstering pistol(s), how much 'grace' is allowed when putting the pistol(s) back into the holsters vertical that creates violating the 170 rule? In other words, holstering a pistol pointed straight down BEFORE the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster. Thanks ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 As a TO, I've been swept more times than I can count, both drawing and holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 I am not as concerned about reholstering if they hit the holster mouth first time as those who miss the holster and are struggling to get the gun into the holster while wondering around to the next shooting position! I know (supposedly) the gun is empty but the rule is there for everyone’s safety! Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Just wondering: While holstering pistol(s), how much 'grace' is allowed when putting the pistol(s) back into the holsters vertical that creates violating the 170 rule? In other words, holstering a pistol pointed straight down BEFORE the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster. Thanks ..........Widder What's your definition of "entering the mouth of the holster?" For me, it's the muzzle actually touching part of the mouth of the holster, or clearly inside the plane of the mouth. But, I firmly adhere to the RO Rule #4. I'm also generally, looking at the shooter as a whole, making sure spotters & brass pickers aren't in the way of the shooter's movement; nor do I ask a spotter to watch for muzzle control during reholstering... that smacks of looking for penalties. However, if the shooter is "new-to-me", I might watch a little closer at their gun handling skills and overall safety awareness. As for me, I ain't been caught spinning my six-guns on the way to leather... yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 Howdy Griff. My understanding of reholstering 'safely' is when the pistol is kept within the 170 and only when the muzzle can 'SWIVEL' (my word, not the rule) downward and enter the holster, basically at the entrance to the holster.......... and not 6" higher, etc............ (6" is just an example). ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Holstering (pulling or returning), can go up to 180 degrees from vertical. In the "Mouth", there is not limit on degrees to veritcal. Phantom Let me know if I'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 My understanding and the way it has been explained, demonstrated to me. Pistol can be at a 180 down while holstering, if the pistol misses the holster the shooter must keep attempting to holster without breaking 180. Holding the pistol at 180 and not attempting to holster would be a violation. Once the muzzle is in the holster it no longer matters what angle the pistol is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 A rule that is written real tightly (170 degrees at all times), and with no exceptions stated, is one that is hard to be real rigorous when enforcing it, when in practical application, it can't be followed (or measured) precisely. I use a guideline of "if it is heading back to the holster, then allow the shooter to do what is comfortable". Our prohibition of forward slanting holsters helps to make sure the muzzle is not aimed up range (back towards the posse). good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Our prohibition of forward slanting holsters helps to make sure the muzzle is not aimed up range (back towards the posse). good luck, GJ Can you point to chapter & verse for this prohibition. When shooting suppository revolvers, I've used a JW holster, (has a slight forward cant as worn), for years without any negative feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 I say... Let's re-introduce the Cone Of Safety!!!!!! Phantom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 My strong RH is straight down. My crossdraw is 10 degree cant uprange. Using the hand swap and waist twist, I keep the business ends drawing and reholstering well within the 170. Few years back, there was a pard who did a video demonstrating the correct way of doing the hand swap and holstering of the crossdraw. Can't remember his handle, tho. Follow that bit rather religiously nowadays and I always start with my crossdraw first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Quote When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170° (and vice versa on the return). These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster. This allowance applies to all types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. SHB p.3 (emphasis added) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Quote "During the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved/legal holsters" This rule for me takes precedence over the strict 170 rule for the acts of drawing and holstering. Drawing from holster is explicitly allowed if muzzle is within 180 - an exception to the 170. No such written exception is in the rules for reholstering. (An oversight, I believe) So, I take the practical route and call it as if there was one for reholstering. As to the forward cant holster prohibition rule, that seems to have been removed some time ago. Thanks for clarifying, Griff. good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: This rule for me takes precedence over the strict 170 rule. Drawing from holster is explicitly allowed if muzzle is within 180 - an exception to the 170. No such written exception is in the rules for reholstering. (An oversight, I believe) So, I take the practical route and call it as if there was one for reholstering. ... "...(and vice versa on the return)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 2 hours ago, Presidio said: I keep the business ends drawing and reholstering well within the 170. But do you keep the muzzle within the 180 as you're moving it towards your body??? Doesn't matter if your do the stoopid X-Draw twist. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: But do you keep the muzzle within the 180 as you're moving it towards your body??? Doesn't matter if your do the stoopid X-Draw twist. Phantom Hand pass from right to left inverting the grip hand upward. Barrel stays pretty much down range until you begin downward motion to reholster. At no time is the muzzle pointed or sweeping myself or breaking the 170...or the 180. Hard to explain...easier to understand when seen. And there is nothing stupid about the Crossdraw twist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Presidio said: Hand pass from right to left inverting the grip hand upward. Barrel stays pretty much down range until you begin downward motion to reholster. At no time is the muzzle pointed or sweeping myself or breaking the 170...or the 180. Hard to explain...easier to understand when seen. And there is nothing stupid about the Crossdraw twist. Oh that's where you're wrong. The X-Draw twist is...oh wait...don't want to get banned again...yeah, yer right, the X-Draw twist is awesome!!! And sweeping yourself is not against the rules Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: ... And sweeping yourself is not against the rules ... It's a SDQ if the 170 rule is violated while doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Plenty of videos out there of people holstering their cross-draw pistol and breaking the 180 and/or sweeping themselves and/or the TO. Not that hard to find so I'm not going to post links for you. If you point it out you get shouted down because "Camera angle." Heaven forbid you call someone on it as the TO. "I'm allowed to holster safely." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 Think I'll go and check the back forty fence line. I'll check in later with you folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 4 hours ago, Griff said: ................................. When shooting suppository revolvers ........................... Do I even want to ask??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Presidio said: Think I'll go and check the back forty fence line. I'll check in later with you folks. Bring me a sammich and cold Pepsi....... that's where I'll be also... Actually, I ask this question because a fellow shooter recently told me that when a person is holstering their revolver, if the revolver is a couple inches ABOVE the holster entrance and the muzzle is pointed strait down........ SDQ. BUT, if the shooter keeps the muzzle within the 170 and SWIVELS (pivotal motion) the muzzle downward into the holster, its considered o.k. I expressed that at the moment some of these actions are going on, its so instantaneous that its hard to tell unless the shooter is being closely watched. Admittedly, there are some holstering violations of the 170 that are obvious. But to distinguish between a 2" drop into the holster from a vertical drop and a pivotal vertical drop can be hard to judge, especially if a SDQ is involved. Just my thoughts. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 2, 2023 Author Share Posted November 2, 2023 Hey Branchwater Jack......... got any videos? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 31 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: It's a SDQ if the 170 rule is violated while doing so. Now come on...I may be stoopid...but I ain't THAT stoopid. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 19 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said: Do I even want to ask??? aka "cartridge revolvers"... but, since they're loaded from... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrub Oak Willie 53737 Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 I was told by the Video rule guru that if you miss your holster when trying to reholster you broke the 170 (180 )if your gun is pointing straight down and it is a SDQ . Only allowed one attempt to reholster. Maybe I misunderstood him. Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 It looks like the call is, if the revolver is ever in the straight down position(180°) while holstering without the muzzle being inside the mouth of the holster it is a SDQ for breaking the 170. If it were up to me the allowance to go to 180° straight down would apply to ANY time you're actively in the process of holstering your revolvers, not just once the muzzle enters the holster. That's not much of an allowance. Look at the screenshot below of pg 17 in the SHB beside the word note. Why would that be there, especially right after the bullet point 2 above it says a holstered revolver will never break the 170 or be considered to sweep anyone. We know a revolver is considered holstered until the muzzle clears leather. So, what exactly does that noted allowance actually do? My guess is there is about to be a whole bunch of scrutiny of a whole lot of shooters in a whole lot of videos. Have y'all looked at any lately? How many times have you paused the video to see the revolver straight down with the muzzle out of the holster? I'd say a bunch. I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 11 hours ago, Scrub Oak Willie 53737 said: I was told by the Video rule guru that if you miss your holster when trying to reholster you broke the 170 (180 )if your gun is pointing straight down and it is a SDQ . Only allowed one attempt to reholster. Maybe I misunderstood him. Willie This is my understanding also. 11 hours ago, Scrub Oak Willie 53737 said: 12 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Hey Branchwater Jack......... got any videos? ..........Widder I've asked him to make one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 5 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: It looks like the call is, if the revolver is ever in the straight down position(180°) while holstering without the muzzle being inside the mouth of the holster it is a SDQ for breaking the 170. ... Look at the screenshot below of pg 17 in the SHB beside the word note. Why would that be there, especially right after the bullet point 2 above it says a holstered revolver will never break the 170 or be considered to sweep anyone. We know a revolver is considered holstered until the muzzle clears leather. So, what exactly does that noted allowance actually do? The "noted allowance" refers to the previously quoted rule from p.3 of the SHB regarding the 180° exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Lead Pepper Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 Just to clarify for my own understanding...this appears to be an SDQ based on what I am reading here. Is that correct? If I had the entire photo here instead of being zoomed in you would more clearly see this pistol is at 180. I didn't want to reveal the identity of the shooter so I zoomed in. Sorry the photo is so grainy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 WOW............. I'm in trouble, based on this picture above. After reading all the post above, I pulled out my holsters and pistols and checked meowndangself. Strangely, when I reholster my LEFT pistol, my muzzle never breaks the 170 until the muzzle has entered the holster. Apparently, the way my left arm angles backwards during the reholstering keeps the muzzle of my left pistol pointed approx. FOUR FEET in front of me. Should a live round be fired during this position, it would hit approx 4 feet in front of me. BUT..... with my right pistol, its pointed pretty much exactly like the picture above. Apparently, the way my RIGHT arm angles backwards during the reholstering is somewhat different than my left arm. I will also say that when the muzzle is pointed in this position, its about 1/2 to 1" from entering the holster......but it had not actually entered the holster. But at this point of reholstering, other than a picture, can anyone detect such a small infraction? I don't mean to imply the rule........ but rather a small infraction of being in the 170 or 180. Our pistols are reholstered with eye blinking speeds. EDIT: I might add that my holsters have a slight muzzle forward cant, similar to most holsters we use in CAS. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Lead Pepper Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 12 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: But at this point of reholstering, other than a picture, can anyone detect such a small infraction? I can't...but maybe I'm just slow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: The "noted allowance" refers to the previously quoted rule from p.3 of the SHB regarding the 180° exception. I guess my question is why "are you allowed to go to 180° straight down to draw and holster" if the revolver has to be holstered for you to be at 180° straight down. Doesn't make much sense to me. -A revolver is considered holstered if the muzzle is Inside the mouth of the holster. So when you plug in that definition of holstered, you get: You're allowed to go straight down to 180° to draw and holster your revolver but it has to be holstered for that allowance to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 1 hour ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said: Just to clarify for my own understanding...this appears to be an SDQ based on what I am reading here. Is that correct? If I had the entire photo here instead of being zoomed in you would more clearly see this pistol is at 180. I didn't want to reveal the identity of the shooter so I zoomed in. Sorry the photo is so grainy. For me, if he is going to holster there is no way I would call that. # 1 he is not sweeping anyone #2 he has to be able to safely reholster #3 absent photo evidence (which cannot be used) there is hardly any way to be sure “did he or didn’t he?” I think this is where common sense/RO III comes into play! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presidio Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 Yup. I'm guilty, too. Just took a video of myself drawing and reholstering as I normally would. Yep. Straight down and slightly uprange when reholstering strong side. Hardly noticeable, but I'm gonna have to be more aware of that in the future. Now, I know the 170 rule is for the safety of all. But, with observations of this thread, it doesn't appear to be blatant and intentional violations of it. And when there are, it's too close to call. Even by the Shootist themselves most times. So basically, it's a No Call rule. So unless it's just a flat out, all around senarios of unsafe gun handling , then I would advocate that the 170/180 rule be abolished. Seriously, we are all supposed to be experienced with gun safety to begin with. If someone handles firearms haphazardly, then a SDQ or perhaps a MDQ should be awarded. I believe there's enough safety rules in place and plenty of folks with good common sense to continually ensure the safety of all. Okay, y'all kin break out the tar and feathers now. Sorry, Widder. I forgot the chow and Pepsi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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