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Tennessee williams
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Stage has: 2 shooting positions, 5 pistol targets in a straight line left to right, 5 rifle targets in a straight line left to right, 4sg kd

Instructions:

  *Begin standing at shooters' discretion with hand or hands on any gun or guns. Pistols are holstered. Rifle is staged on right table. Shotgun is staged on either table.

  *At the buzzer, gun order is rifle not last.

  *SG shot from right table, engage the 4kd in any order

  *Pistols shot from left table, engage the pistol targets with 2 rounds each

  *Rifle shot from right table, engage the rifle targets with 2 rounds each.

 

The duelist shooter stages rifle on right table, shotgun on right table and at the buzzer begins at the left table with hands on both pistols. Shooter draws right pistol and fires 4, hitting the 2 right most targets with 2 rds each. Holsters right pistol while drawing left pistol and hits 2 left most targets with 2rds each with that pistol. Holsters left pistol and moves to rifle where he shoots the 1st 4 targets with double taps and lays the rifle down on the table with the hammer down on a spent cartridge pointed down range. Shooter then moves to left table and draws right pistol putting 1 round on the center target and without holstering right pistol draws left pistol and puts 1 round on the center target. Shooter holsters both pistols and moves back to the right table and fires 2 rounds on the unengaged target. Shooter picks up the shotgun before the rifle is put back on the table and then knocks down all 4 sg targets. 

All targets were hit with correct firearm and Shooter made it safely to the unloading table to clear all firearms.

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Well, I’d have to say no call. Lots of unneeded movement tho. 

Edited by Hoss
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Interesting, it "might" be illegal for a gunfighter (depending on intent), but not for a duelist?

 

Handbook p.7

-) A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence,

-) Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter style to stage or restage revolvers between target sequences. If the shooter’s hands are otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences), the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time (double duelist) unless they can be safely staged rather than holstered. In this case, both revolvers may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged, and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds.

 

Handbook p.14

-) GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence. (See Gunfighter Rules).

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1 minute ago, Itchy Trigger said:

Interesting, it "might" be illegal for a gunfighter (depending on intent), but not for a duelist?

 

Handbook p.7

-) A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence,

-) Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter style to stage or restage revolvers between target sequences. If the shooter’s hands are otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences), the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time (double duelist) unless they can be safely staged rather than holstered. In this case, both revolvers may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged, and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds.

 

Handbook p.14

-) GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence. (See Gunfighter Rules).

Intent is the key word in your post.

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The OP specifically noted Duelist shooter.

Duelist (or supported shooter) - No Call.

 

Sadly - the Gunfighter is not so lucky.

The prohibition against the Gunfighter holstering with rounds left in the pistols was written and enacted as a claimed SAFETY rule.

IF it is unsafe for a Gunfighter to holster with rounds remaining KNOWINGLY - it is obviously unsafe for them to holster with rounds remaining unknowingly.  The claimed safety concern is unchanged.

 

The Gunfighter error of "miscounting" and holstering can be corrected - but must be corrected prior to the next gun.

 

Intent is demonstrated when they utilize a differing firearm and THEN return to the pistol targets and complete sequence.

 

Hostered without intent means the remaining pistol targets are left unengaged - counted as misses.

 

 

 

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Why would you do that? Seems pretty inefficient. I would interpret the instruction to put 2 on all 5 targets for the pistol and rifle, not 8 shots and then come back later for the other 2 of both type guns. Also, they said left to right, not the end 2 and then back later for the center. Seems a P at least. I guess I'm confused! A short trip!

Edited by Eyesa Horg
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24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The OP specifically noted Duelist shooter.

 

Sadly - the Gunfighter is not so lucky.

The prohibition against the Gunfighter holstering with rounds left in the pistols was written and enacted as a claimed SAFETY rule.

IF it is unsafe for a Gunfighter to holster with rounds remaining KNOWINGLY - it is obviously unsafe for them to holster with rounds remaining unknowingly.  The claimed safety concern is unchanged.

In the SHB it does indeed say a Gunfighter may not holster with Intent to.....instead of saying Gunfighter style may not blah blah... my opinion is it should say "Gunfighter style" to allow a Gunfighter shooting Dueslist style that option. Maybe it has been ruled somewhere that that is the case. Seems like it should be because a BWestern shooter can change styles anywhere in their string so Bwestern shooting gunfighter style would be a no call because they changed styles.

24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The Gunfighter error of "miscounting" and holstering can be corrected - but must be corrected prior to the next gun.

 

Intent is demonstrated when they utilize a differing firearm and THEN return to the pistol targets and complete sequence.

I can't find this as written. Where is it located? I can't find where it says they have until the next firearm is fired to correct it. To me if they didn't intend to then they didn't intend to. Firing another firearm doesn't to me say they intended to do it. But if that's the case, I want to be able to point it out in black and white. Or blue!

 

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5 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I can't find this as written. Where is it located? I can't find where it says they have until the next firearm is fired to correct it. To me if they didn't intend to then they didn't intend to. Firing another firearm doesn't to me say they intended to do it. But if that's the case, I want to be able to point it out in black and white. Or blue!

 

You are correct - doesn't exist "as written" but "sometimes" we have to extrapolate and infer the correct ruling utilizing guidance and principles from other sources.

 

IMO - The Gunfighter has three outcomes after holstering with rounds remaining (assuming hammer(s) are not cocked)

 

They holster and THEN immediately correct the mistake - At this point; they are simply completing their current pistol sequence NOT intending to engage another pistol sequence.  (this option is based on the basis of a long gun leaving the hand in error being corrected before next gun is fired)

No penalty.

or 

They holster with pistol rounds remaining and utilize another firearm.

 

1) They complete the stage and proceed to unloading...

Assess misses for unfired rounds left in pistols.

 

2) They complete stage with the engagement of ANOTHER pistol sequence. 

 

I cannot read the shooters mind and am under no obligation to do so - Gunfighter holstering pistols with rounds remaining and THEN engaging another sequence is sufficient to establish intent.

Assign penalty.

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5 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You are correct - doesn't exist "as written" but "sometimes" we have to extrapolate and infer the correct ruling utilizing guidance and principles from other sources.

 

I cannot read the shooters mind and am under no obligation to do so - Gunfighter holstering pistols with rounds remaining and THEN engaging another sequence is sufficient to establish intent.

Assign penalty.

Hey Creeker. We usually agree on a lot of stuff but I can't help but disagree with you on this "what if". I hate to go down the rabbit hole for a what if scenario but this is a good one.

   If we don't ALL make a call based on the rules as written or clarified there will inevitably be TOs that "extrapolate" differently. This creates a differing match between shooters that simply doesn't have to be. 2 GF'ers on the same stage with 2 different TOs can have 2 different outcomes.

   I also can't agree with using the rules or clarifications from one firearm for another firearm. There are too many differences. This is why someone will try to give me a P for shouldering my rifle and pointing it down range while I am firing my last revolver. They say "you can't have 2 guns out at once"! No. I can't have two loaded revolvers out at once with one of them cocked.

I ain't gotta agree with you. I still love ya:P

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When shooter fired his pistols - a penalty (MS) was earned on the rifle.  As stated "may be corrected before firing the next firearm".  Plus the P as stated by Eyesa Horg for shooting pistols out of sequence (left to right) not right two - left two and center as in OP.

Edited by Hawkeye Kid
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2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Why would you do that? Seems pretty inefficient. I would interpret the instruction to put 2 on all 5 targets for the pistol and rifle, not 8 shots and then come back later for the other 2 of both type guns. Also, they said left to right, not the end 2 and then back later for the center. Seems a P at least. I guess I'm confused! A short trip!

Just to clarify. Nowhere does it say the direction the targets are to be engaged.

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2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Why would you do that? Seems pretty inefficient. I would interpret the instruction to put 2 on all 5 targets for the pistol and rifle, not 8 shots and then come back later for the other 2 of both type guns. Also, they said left to right, not the end 2 and then back later for the center. Seems a P at least. I guess I'm confused! A short trip!

Left to right sweep not required. Only 2 on every target. 
order is any gun, rifle not last. 

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21 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

When shooter fired his pistols - a penalty (MS) was earned on the rifle.  As stated "may be corrected before firing the next firearm". 

Screenshot_20221115-133911_Drive.thumb.jpg.bc549dc2104ea566733d271ffd5668e9.jpg

21 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

Plus the P as stated by Eyesa Horg for shooting pistols out of sequence (left to right) not right two - left two and center as in OP.

There are no instructions that say engage the targets left to right.

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The only "possible" penalty I see here is the first transition from 1st pistol to 2nd pistol. If the 1st (still loaded) pistols muzzle is not in the holster before the 2nd pistols muzzle clears its holster, that would be 2 loaded pistols in hand. Otherwise "Next Shooter"

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2 hours ago, Mister Badly said:

I didn't realize you could discard a rifle with rounds in the mag and an empty in the chamber

You don't see split rifle much anymore, so it's not surprising a lot of people are not aware of that.

41 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

The only "possible" penalty I see here is the first transition from 1st pistol to 2nd pistol. If the 1st (still loaded) pistols muzzle is not in the holster before the 2nd pistols muzzle clears its holster, that would be 2 loaded pistols in hand. Otherwise "Next Shooter"

I think that kicks in once one of the pistols is cocked.

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43 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

The only "possible" penalty I see here is the first transition from 1st pistol to 2nd pistol. If the 1st (still loaded) pistols muzzle is not in the holster before the 2nd pistols muzzle clears its holster, that would be 2 loaded pistols in hand. Otherwise "Next Shooter"

The shooter would have until one of them is cocked. 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Screenshot_20221115-133911_Drive.thumb.jpg.bc549dc2104ea566733d271ffd5668e9.jpg

There are no instructions that say engage the targets left to right.

I interpreted that from your first 2 sentences in the OP. Apparently I misunderstood.:huh:

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5 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Stage has: 2 shooting positions, 5 pistol targets in a straight line left to right, 5 rifle targets in a straight line left to right, 4sg kd

Instructions:

  *Begin standing at shooters' discretion with hand or hands on any gun or guns. Pistols are holstered. Rifle is staged on right table. Shotgun is staged on either table.

  *At the buzzer, gun order is rifle not last.

  *SG shot from right table, engage the 4kd in any order

  *Pistols shot from left table, engage the pistol targets with 2 rounds each

  *Rifle shot from right table, engage the rifle targets with 2 rounds each.

 

The duelist shooter stages rifle on right table, shotgun on right table and at the buzzer begins at the left table with hands on both pistols. Shooter draws right pistol and fires 4, hitting the 2 right most targets with 2 rds each. Holsters right pistol while drawing left pistol and hits 2 left most targets with 2rds each with that pistol. Holsters left pistol and moves to rifle where he shoots the 1st 4 targets with double taps and lays the rifle down on the table with the hammer down on a spent cartridge pointed down range. Shooter then moves to left table and draws right pistol putting 1 round on the center target and without holstering right pistol draws left pistol and puts 1 round on the center target. Shooter holsters both pistols and moves back to the right table and fires 2 rounds on the unengaged target. Shooter picks up the shotgun before the rifle is put back on the table and then knocks down all 4 sg targets. 

All targets were hit with correct firearm and Shooter made it safely to the unloading table to clear all firearms.

I think after shooting this stage I might just have to go home and go back to bed. Then maybe when I woke up I’d be able to remember a simple stage and how to count. 

 

5 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

Interesting, it "might" be illegal for a gunfighter (depending on intent), but not for a duelist?

 

Handbook p.7

-) A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another revolver sequence,

I have been wrong many times but I don’t think this situation would be illegal for a gunfighter providing neither pistol was cocked when holstered. I don’t think anyone would intend to shoot 4 shots out of each pistol change locations, shoot another gun, then go back to shoot the remaining 2 pistol shots then come back to shoot the remaining rifle rounds and then the shotgun. I believe after he started shooting the rifle he had an “oh crap” moment and went back to the pistol location after safely grounding the rifle for further use. (Would have been much faster to have finished the rifle string). Since the gun order was rifle not last and he apparently shot everything correctly and he finished with the shotgun last, No Call, next shooter!

 

 Randy 

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6 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I think after shooting this stage I might just have to go home and go back to bed. Then maybe when I woke up I’d be able to remember a simple stage and how to count. 

Lol, you and me both! Sometimes a good ole brain fart can turn an easy one hard quick!

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14 minutes ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

Why would someone do this? Because it is fun to be different. 

I wouldn’t think anyone would do this on purpose, I would think it would be a combination of “brain f&rts”. 
 

Randy

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Pistol string was complete with 2 misses/unfired rounds the moment the first rifle shot went down range. 

 

SHB p 14

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the 
conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Wouldn't this be a P for returning to shoot 2 more shots after completing the pistol string?   Essentially, shooting the stage out of order?

 

SHB p21 under procedural penalties

-Engaging the stage in the wrong order.

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1 minute ago, Fretless said:

Pistol string was complete with 2 misses/unfired rounds the moment the first rifle shot went down range. 

 

SHB p 14

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the 
conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

Wouldn't this be a P for returning to shoot 2 more shots after completing the pistol string?   Essentially, shooting the stage out of order?

 

SHB p21 under procedural penalties

-Engaging the stage in the wrong order.

I will say no, as the firearm order is simply stated as "... rifle not last."

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

I will say no, as the firearm order is simply stated as "... rifle not last."

So, you are saying that any time the stage instructions say rifle not last, it is ok to split any, or all, shooting strings, so long as the last shot fired is from a pistol or shotgun?  That there is no obligation to complete one sequence before starting the next?  

The rules seem clear that once you fire the next type of gun the shooting string is over.  Even in a "rifle not last" stage the number of shots in each string are defined.   Changing a 10 shot string into an 8 shot string, and a separate 2 shot string is not following stage directions. 

Edited by Fretless
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1 hour ago, Fretless said:

 

SHB p 14

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the 
conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

Great question Fretless! In THIS situation of gun order being shooters' choice, the shooter may decide how many shooting strings he has. Keep in mind the SHB doesn't specify how many rounds are in a shooting string, or that all of them must be fired, or that there can only be one string per firearm. With gun order being shooters' choice I may decide my order will be pistol, Rifle, pistol, Rifle, SG, Rifle, pistol and still meet these particular stage instructions. 

1 hour ago, Fretless said:

Wouldn't this be a P for returning to shoot 2 more shots after completing the pistol string?   Essentially, shooting the stage out of order?

The only gun order given was rifle not last. This shooter engaged with the shotgun last.

Again, great question.

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