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Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter...


Tennessee williams

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Shot with a fellow that did not have a belly button...lost it in a surgery.......it came up when I asked him to point to his belly button when someone questioned where he was wearing his SG belt. 

 

Now what?

 

Stan

look for the scar.  Seriously - I suspect he can figure out where it was

 

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Also to me the OP said he seen the hammer back and verified with spotter to boot so it wouldn't matter imo how the story changed for it to get to that end result. I'm fine with a rule change or even an exclusion but til that happens it's a sdq. I do hope people wanting to change it remembers the hammer back on a rifle fiasco. It didn't turn out like everyone thought it would. 

 

Don't beat up on me too bad this weekend, my shoulder is hurtn.

So you're sayin I got a chance eh :)

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1 hour ago, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Shot with a fellow that did not have a belly button...lost it in a surgery.......it came up when I asked him to point to his belly button when someone questioned where he was wearing his SG belt. 

 

Now what?

 

Stan

Benefit of the doubt!

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In all the years of shooting, I have never checked where my shotgun belt is in reference to my belly button. For many years I used a shotgun slide on my gun belt until I had a rig made with a gun belt and a separate shotgun belt. I now put on my gun belt around my hips and then I put on my shotgun belt and push it down until it is sitting on the top of my gun belt. If that is not good enough for somebody, well, I feel they are not following the spirt of the rule or the game.

 

Why somebody would pull a shotgun belt up under arms is beyond me, since it looks stupid and I know it would not help my shooting to do it. 

 

One should follow the rules to the best of their ability while playing our game.  

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There’s one sure fire way to make sure the whole “belly button debate” goes away, everybody has to wear a mid drift shirt, you know the one where your belly button shows.  :D

 

image.thumb.jpeg.3bb1bb1e992121e5459e959abbc716e0.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

There’s one sure fire way to make sure the whole “belly button debate” goes away, everybody has to wear a mid drift shirt, you know the one where your belly button shows.  :D

 

image.thumb.jpeg.3bb1bb1e992121e5459e959abbc716e0.jpeg

Dude. What you doing downloading pictures like that? Benefit of the doubt DOES NOT go to Tequila Shooter.:ph34r:

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2 hours ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

If that is not good enough for somebody, well, I feel they are not following the spirt of the rule or the game.

Could you elaborate on this...not too sure what it is you're saying.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Dude. What you doing downloading pictures like that? Benefit of the doubt DOES NOT go to Tequila Shooter.:ph34r:

 

You’re assuming that I downloaded it :P

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I don't think a majority of Cowboys use it in its unintended way.

But, it does appear that a noticeeable number of those on on the Wire use it out of its intended purpose.

 

Example:  There was NO DOUBT that the pistol was reholstered with a cocked hammer.

There is NO DOUBT about the rule and penalty of such action.

 

Soooooooo, where is the 'benefit of the doubt"?   There is No Doubt.   It happened, and it earns a penalty.

No Doubt about it.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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16 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Snakebite what was the situation for the no call for hammer being back with the hammer loop around the hammer?

The rule says: "Returning a revolver to leather with the hammer not fully down on a spent round or empty chamber." Is a SDQ. The hammer thong on his rig was a strip of leather that had a split in it to go over the hammer. It must have laid across the top of the holster and when the shooter re-holstered the gun it hooked on the hammer preventing it from being fully down. (just a guess, I don't know how it got under the hammer) but the hammer was not cocked or on half cock, the thong just prevented it from being fully down. IMO he holstered the gun with the hammer down or else it would have been cocked.. so, it must have become pulled back a bit by the thong as he holstered it. I wasn't going to give him a DQ for that. 

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25 minutes ago, Don Jorge said:

How did the leather get to be "under the hammer?"   How was that rectified?

Like I said, I don't know how it happened, and also like I said, it was a very rare situation. If anyone takes the position of Chief RO on the posse they need to be prepared for the job, and that can sometimes be more than just absolutes. Every possible "What If" can not be covered absolutely by some statement in the rules. On rare occasions a judgement call must be made and it is up to the T.O. to make it. If they just can not come up with an answer then they need to hand off the timer while they seek help with the call. The ROC did their best to write the rules to cover situations. They wrote and directed and promoted the training program to get as many members versed on the rules as possible. While we were at it, it would have been very nice if we could have written an RO III course...... "Common Sense" manual. I don't believe that it is unreasonable to expect the person in charge of the firing line to be capable of dealing with an odd situation. These things happen very seldom and are NOT worth spending much time on. A fluke is a fluke. If it continues to happen then it can be addressed further. The last thing we need is to add yet another rule to address things like Thongs that get caught under the hammer. Shooters have the right to use the appeals system to challenge calls made by the T.O.. If anyone believes that the T.O. is not enforcing the rules fairly then they should take their concerns to the M.D. or the R.M. 

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1 hour ago, Stump Water said:

I'm reminded of the debate a few year back about shooters lowering the hammer on the thong at the LT.  IIRC that was deemed illegal.

Never heard of that. Why would anyone do that?

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24 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Never heard of that. Why would anyone do that?

To keep the revolver in the holster on hard runs between locations before they are used. When drawn, the thong would slip out underneath the hammer on an empty chamber. Did it myself many times before ruled illegal. Was ruled illegal when someone misloaded and didn't have it down on an empty chamber. I was in agreement with the ruling. 

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51 minutes ago, Long Hunter SASS #20389L said:

To keep the revolver in the holster on hard runs between locations before they are used. When drawn, the thong would slip out underneath the hammer on an empty chamber. Did it myself many times before ruled illegal. Was ruled illegal when someone misloaded and didn't have it down on an empty chamber. I was in agreement with the ruling. 

Thanks .. I was unaware of it.  

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5 hours ago, Snakebite said:

The rule says: "Returning a revolver to leather with the hammer not fully down on a spent round or empty chamber." Is a SDQ. The hammer thong on his rig was a strip of leather that had a split in it to go over the hammer. It must have laid across the top of the holster and when the shooter re-holstered the gun it hooked on the hammer preventing it from being fully down. (just a guess, I don't know how it got under the hammer) but the hammer was not cocked or on half cock, the thong just prevented it from being fully down. IMO he holstered the gun with the hammer down or else it would have been cocked.. so, it must have become pulled back a bit by the thong as he holstered it. I wasn't going to give him a DQ for that. 

Snakebite, I may take some dookie for disagreeing with the no call but I have to. Here's why. When I read the rule, it doesn't make any allowances for why the hammer is back. Only that it can't be back. Some will say, it MAY not have been holstered with the hammer back. My answer is the only thing we know for sure, is it's back now. There are instances where a shooter bends down to pick up something they dropped and their revolver hammer goes back. That's why we're always told not to bend down on the firing line. Atleast we are around these parts. I don't agree with being able to bend down and retrieve dropped ammo from the GROUND because of this possibility but that's beside the point. Also some people will say it wasn't holstered "cocked or at half cock". That is a moot point when the hammer is found back in the holster on the firing line. I would almost go as far as saying in your scenario there is warrant for discussion of 2 sdq penalties and that would be an mdq. Though maybe not if it's considered the same violation. Follow me for just a second.

First:For the strap to be under the hammer I don't see any way it would be possible to get under without the revolver having been placed in the holster with the hammer back. So that would be sdq1

Second:For the hammer to be down on that strap, I don't see how it could be unless the revolver was decocked. I doubt you gave them permission to, so that would be sdq2

2 sdq on the same stage is a mdq. 

Now I may be dumb but not totally ignorant. There could be enough doubt for me as TO to say, I didn't see them decock and something else could have decocked the revolver. That would mean the shooter didn't do it to avoid a penalty. It is worthy of the discussion though and would like others input.

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

@Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

 

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I was not questioning the call.  I was just asking how the leather retaining thong came to be between the hammer and the breech.  How do you do that without the hammer being lifted by hand in order to insert the leather?

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49 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Now I may be dumb but not totally ignorant. 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

@Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

 

 

Well, at least you're smart enough to have a descent perception of yeowndangself.

:lol:

 

...........Widder

 

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On 11/9/2021 at 1:47 PM, Santa Fe River Stan,36999L said:

Shot with a fellow that did not have a belly button...lost it in a surgery.......it came up when I asked him to point to his belly button when someone questioned where he was wearing his SG belt. 

 

Now what?

 

Stan

I was a PM at a match…you were there, too… someone questioned a shooter on my posse about his SG belt position. I knew it was going to be appealed if I spoke to shooter so I went straight to the MD for the call. MD questioned shooter. He said his belly button was at (about) his sternum. I told the person on my posse that I was NOT going to ask him to Undress and prove it… 

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

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1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

He said his belly button was at (about) his sternum.

Well that's a load of crap!  Unless he's some weird freak of nature...which I doubt.

 

But I'm sure he shows the "Cowboy Way" in all other aspects of his SASS life...in my book, unless he proves that he's a true freak of nature, he's a cheater.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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7 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I always wondered why they picked the belly button, and not something that I could see without having to get somebody undressed...like the elbow?

 

Anybody got any insight on that?

 

A dress code was recently put in place at w**k.  It states, "Shorts have to be finger length."  Meaning, standing naturally, with arms at your side and fingers extended, the leg hem of the shorts can't be above your fingers.  The CS manager said, "But some of my people have T-Rex arms."

 

Does that work for "insight" ?

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Just now, Stump Water said:

 

A dress code was recently put in place at w**k.  It states, "Shorts have to be finger length."  Meaning, standing naturally, with arms at your side and fingers extended, the leg hem of the shorts can't be above your fingers.  The CS manager said, "But some of my people have T-Rex arms."

 

Does that work for "insight" ?

 

Now I'm no anatomy expert, but shouldn't there be some proportionality to the length of arms to the height of the person? 

 

And how would that rate compare to the position of one's belly button as a proportion of the height of the person?

 

I mean honestly, don't some people have long torsos and others have short ones?

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How about this?

Learn the rules.

Keep a shooters book handy.

Keep a flow chart handy.

 

If the rule SAYS 'THIS' (whatever 'this' may be) ...no matter what caused 'THIS', make the call according to the rule.

 

If there is no RULE specific to 'THIS' , then benifit goes to the shooter.

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2 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

How about this?

Learn the rules.

Keep a shooters book handy.

Keep a flow chart handy.

 

If the rule SAYS 'THIS' (whatever 'this' may be) ...no matter what caused 'THIS', make the call according to the rule.

 

If there is no RULE specific to 'THIS' , then benifit goes to the shooter.

The old lady finally came out with her husband to shoot and join in with him. She wasn't too sure just how well this would work out, but she was willing to give it a try. Her bunions sure hurt her, so she wore her comfortable shoes. No, they were not anything like period correct shoes, but neither were the shoes that half of the old men were wearing ON EVERY RANGE IN THIS GAME. She didn't have any written down Doctor's excuse stating that she needed to wear those shoes in order to be able to navigate around the range. BUT... the rules DON'T ALLOW such shoes, she has no doctors excuse, and using such things is a DQ. THROW THE WINCH OUT! 

 

Few things are absolute.  Use a little Discretion if it's appropriate.  :o

Shooters Handbook Vers 25 Jan 2021.pdf

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49 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

The old lady finally came out with her husband to shoot and join in with him. She wasn't too sure just how well this would work out, but she was willing to give it a try. Her bunions sure hurt her, so she wore her comfortable shoes. No, they were not anything like period correct shoes, but neither were the shoes that half of the old men were wearing ON EVERY RANGE IN THIS GAME. She didn't have any written down Doctor's excuse stating that she needed to wear those shoes in order to be able to navigate around the range. BUT... the rules DON'T ALLOW such shoes, she has no doctors excuse, and using such things is a DQ. THROW THE WINCH OUT! 

 

Few things are absolute.  Use a little Discretion if it's appropriate.  :o

Shooters Handbook Vers 25 Jan 2021.pdf 1.5 MB · 0 downloads

Very FEW outlawed footwear...

We ALL need to quit nittpicken this game apart/sport apart/ social activity apart.

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  Can I agree with Snakebite AND Sue?:o

 

  Here lies the conundrum. When 2 different ROs not only interpret but enforce the rules differently, it makes for an uneven match. (Which just so happens to be the subject of my next thread). Now some people could care less if it's an uneven match because they don't shoot to come in up top of the score sheet. I've always said, (and yall probably get tired of it) there's 3 kinds of shooters. Costuming, comeraderie, and competitors. I'll start just calling them the 3 Cs. I've never ever had a problem with someone just shooting for the comeraderie or the costumes and I make it a point as RO to try and help them have the best time allowable at the match. That being said, I ALSO want the competitive shooters to have the best time also. To them that means a fair, consistent, and equal match for everybody. 

 

 

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