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WTC: Hands/Guns in wrong starting position.


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The shooter was to start with the rifle lying flat on the table, hands on top of the rifle. At the buzzer the shooter picked up the rifle and started shooting the stage.

 

Everyone possed up when the stage instruction were read. Half the shooters staged the rifle correctly prior to the "event".

 

One shooter cupped the rifle barrel with one of their hands. As a spotter, I saw it but didn't say anything. The TO saw it but didn't say anything. He allowed the shooter to shoot the stage, but then called a P because the the shooter's hand being under the barrel which gave them an advantage.

 

The shooter swore that they didn't have their hand under the barrel and it started an argument that ended with the shooter reshooting the stage.

 

Q: Should the TO have made the shooter correct their hand position before sounding the buzzer?

Q: As a spotter, should I have shouted out something to stop the shooter?

Q: Should the shooter been allowed to reshoot? 

 

I felt bad that I didn't call out before the buzzer. I felt even worse during the argument that resulted. I felt bad for the TO.

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Posted (edited)

From the R.O. Manual

While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty.

Edited by Major E A Sterner #12916
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Posted (edited)
Quote

Failure to stage firearms or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time.

SHB p.18

 

That said, if the T/O and/or spotter(s) noticed it before the "beep", they should have said something.

 

Also:

 

Quote

All long guns initially staged on a horizontal surface shall be staged lying flat where at least the rear of the trigger guard is on the staging area.

SHB p.15

 

What also concerns me is the argument of the shooter vs. two witnessing ROs resulting in the granting of a reshoot.

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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Q-1  Yes

Q-2  No

Q-3  No

Q-4 (mine) How do you know that the TO noticed it before the buzzer?

 

I thought I had added this last night?

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7 hours ago, Major E A Sterner #12916 said:

From the R.O. Manual

While the TO should do his/her best to not start a competitor in a faulted position or location, the ultimate responsibility of starting position lies with the shooter. A shooter who starts in a faulted position will be assessed a Procedural penalty.

 

^ End of thread (So now it'll go on for three pages.)

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I know I know I know it's the shooter's responsibility to start correctly but c'mon man what's up with the TO?? Pay attention dude!:blink:

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Shame, Shame, Shame!

 

If you really know the TO 'knew' he was in the wrong starting position and said nothing,

maybe just to warrant a penalty, ain't right.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Q-4 (mine) How do you know that the TO noticed it before the buzzer?

This was last year so I don't remember his exact wording, but the TO said he saw it.

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Posted (edited)

Three fold...

Yes, TO saw it and a good TO will make sure shooter starts correctly.

Yes, as a spotter, you should have said 'rifle flat' or something to that effect.

The third is the rule in the handbook.

Flat to me means flat. A rifle does not bend...so flat is flat.

BUT rule states that the rear of the trigger guard must be flat on the table.

Did the shooter have the rear of the trigger guard flat on the table, even with fingers or hand cupping under the rifle?

Is that a 'gamer' move? YES

Is that cheating? NO

Not cheating if it is following the rules in the handbook.

(This thread could easily go on forever!)

Cholla, what in the world made you drudge up an incident from last year!!!??:P

Edited by Singin' Sue 71615
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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Shame, Shame, Shame!

 

If you really know the TO 'knew' he was in the wrong starting position and said nothing,

maybe just to warrant a penalty, ain't right.

 

..........Widder

 

Again...in most cases, Yes.

If it is a shooter who "does not want to be talked to before I shoot, from loading table to unloading table" or "I don't want ANY coaching" (we all have encountered that shooter) then TO was right to keep quiet and shooter earned the penalty.

But yeah, I see your point.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Shame, Shame, Shame!

 

If you really know the TO 'knew' he was in the wrong starting position and said nothing,

maybe just to warrant a penalty, ain't right.

 

..........Widder

 

 

1 hour ago, Cholla said:

This was last year so I don't remember his exact wording, but the TO said he saw it.

 

Shooter trying to game the rifle pick up.

TO trying to "teach the shooter a lesson" or perhaps even in the same category or running for top gun.

 

There are those with integrity and those without.

Both of them should be ashamed of themselves.

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12 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

 

Shooter trying to game the rifle pick up.

TO trying to "teach the shooter a lesson" or perhaps even in the same category or running for top gun.

 

There are those with integrity and those without.

Both of them should be ashamed of themselves.

All long guns initially staged on a horizontal surface shall be staged lying flat where at least the rear of the trigger guard is on the staging area.

 

this is part of the rules I did not know about...could change things, if rule was followed.

a good friend and shooter told me the difference between a gamer and a cheater is, a cheater will CROSS the line...a gamer will go up AS CLOSE TO THE LINE WITHOUT CROSSING it.

 

again...not being there;)

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Posted (edited)

Stage writers need to be careful of, what could be, vague starting positions. If you want them to start a certain way, then write it that way.

If you don't want them to start a certain way, then write it so they can't. Don't let it be interpreted wrong. I know we can get all kinds of "stretching" of stage instructions, just do your best to avoid it in the first place. "Rifle lying flat on table" is clear enough but if you think someone may grasp as opposed to having hands flat on top and you do not want a grasping of the rifle, then have hands off altogether. Have them put hands somewhere else.

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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4 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Stage writers need to be careful of, what could be, vague starting positions. If you want them to start a certain way, then write it that way.

If you don't want them to start a certain way, then write it so they can't. Don't let it be interpreted wrong. I know we can get all kinds of "stretching" of stage instructions, just do your best to avoid it in the first place. "Rifle lying flat on table" is clear enough but if you think someone may grasp as opposed to having hands flat on top and you do not want a grasping of the rifle, then have hands off altogether. Have them put hands somewhere else.

All the instructions need to say is "Both hands touching staged rifle".

 

Conventions take care of the rest.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Cholla, what in the world made you drudge up an incident from last year!!!??:P

The argument that resulted made me want to leave. I would have accepted the ruling and went on. It has bothered me since. If I had said something perhaps it would not have taken place. My remembering of the incident was that everyone prior to this person, including myself, followed the stage instructions and had the entire rifle forward of the trigger guard touching the table. And, of course, everyone after the incident knew the rifle had to be flat on the table.

 

 

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@Singin' Sue 71615
If the shooter's hand was cupped under the barrel, the rifle was not "staged lying flat".

That is contrary to the stage instruction:  "The shooter was to start with the rifle lying flat on the table, hands on top of the rifle."

 

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Just now, Cholla said:

The argument that resulted made me want to leave. I would have accepted the ruling and went on. It has bothered me since. If I had said something perhaps it would not have taken place. My remembering of the incident was that everyone prior to this person, including myself, followed the stage instructions and had the entire rifle forward of the trigger guard touching the table. And, of course, everyone after the incident knew the rifle had to be flat on the table.

 

 

We have to understand , it is a sport, but a 'game' also.

Agreed MOST clubs will say FLAT, and explain it.

Ex: WR and EOT in past have added ALL must be flat, no barrell on edge, ect.

We will all encounter people who argue calls, those who make mistakes and those who clarify.

All part of being human and learning!!

Don't fret on it any longer. We all learned something from this.

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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

@Singin' Sue 71615
If the shooter's hand was cupped under the barrel, the rifle was not "staged lying flat".

That is contrary to the stage instruction:  "The shooter was to start with the rifle lying flat on the table, hands on top of the rifle."

 

Got ya. The hands on top would be the P for SURE! Forgot about reading that.

But...should the tidbit on the 'rear of the trigger guard must be flat' be removed from the ruling?

State the stage instructions say FLAT, means the long gun in its entirety must be flat?:rolleyes:

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I have to say, over 15 years and I still learn a new perspective on rules. Also I am neglect on staying updated on rule changes.

We have lots if rules specific to our specific game...and many are very unclear to many...as stated in several WTC topics...also left up to interpitation.

 

I personally just enjoy the 'game' part of our sport. I safely shoot, have fun, enjoy our posse and go my way. But I am not in  the sport to compete...my perogitive.

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Again, to me this is simple.

 

"hands touching staged rifle"

 

If we as Stage Writers have to spell out every dang SASS Convention on every Stage we write the stages will be pages long...and by the time we're done reading each Stage most of the shooters will have forgotten what was said at the beginning of the Stage Novel.

 

If you want to compete, learn the rules. If you don't care about the competition side of the game then why care about a penalty here or there.

 

Phantom

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Again, to me this is simple.

 

"hands touching staged rifle"

 

If we as Stage Writers have to spell out every dang SASS Convention on every Stage we write the stages will be pages long...and by the time we're done reading each Stage most of the shooters will have forgotten what was said at the beginning of the Stage Novel.

 

If you want to compete, learn the rules. If you don't care about the competition side of the game then why care about a penalty here or there.

 

Phantom

You get me...you really DO!!!:wub:

I'm there for the ride...not the Caddilac!

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21 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Got ya. The hands on top would be the P for SURE! Forgot about reading that.

But...should the tidbit on the 'rear of the trigger guard must be flat' be removed from the ruling?

State the stage instructions say FLAT, means the long gun in its entirety must be flat?:rolleyes:

 

The convention states "lying flat"...the "at least the rear of the trigger guard" reference specifies how much of a long gun must be on the surface 
As a convention, this needn't be stated in the stage instructions.
In the OP it was, as well as hand position.

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26 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The convention states "lying flat"...the "at least the rear of the trigger guard" reference specifies how much of a long gun must be on the surface 
As a convention, this needn't be stated in the stage instructions.
In the OP it was, as well as hand position.

Yes. Thanks PW!

Hey, will you be at EOT?

(Yes, I went off topic...again)

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Posted (edited)

Shot at a club in the area and the stage inst said the same thing "hands flat on top of the rifle". Yes, I know, I added the flat part. Saw several that were wrapping their hands around before start. That's why I'm specific when I write, if I do or don't want shooters to do something.

Hardly ever use "cowboy port arms" as folks either don't understand it or try to cheat it. So I just use other start positions.

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Shot at a club in the area and the stage inst said the same thing "hands flat on top of the rifle". Yes, I know, I added the flat part. Saw several that were wrapping their hands around before start. That's why I'm specific when I write, if I do or don't want shooters to do something.

Hardly ever use "cowboy port arms" as folks either don't understand it or try to cheat it. So I just use other start positions.

I respect your position. But if we keep enabling folks to not learn/know the Conventions, then in the end, we're hurt ourselves and them. Folks need to know the dang rules! The Conventions are part of the rules of this game.

 

Monthlies are a great place to learn!

 

T.O should...BETTER...know the rules or don't take the Timer. They need to help folks understand the rules...and folks need to be willing to learn. If they aren't...well...sc^#%@w 'em! They'll get the penalties and no one should feel bad for them.

 

Phantom

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I know rules are rules, but I for one sure do appreciate when the TO kindly reminds me of were my hands are supposed to start. 

 

Between a combo of nerves, adrenaline, senior moments, brain farts, and new shooters I for one am willing to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and not assume they started with the incorrect hand position for a competitive advantage.  As a spotter I always try to call out the hand position if I notice the shooter appears to be starting wrong.  I wouldn't deliberately watch a shooter shoot the whole stage and then call a P, but maybe that's just me.

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24 minutes ago, July Smith said:

I know rules are rules, but I for one sure do appreciate when the TO kindly reminds me of were my hands are supposed to start. 

 

Between a combo of nerves, adrenaline, senior moments, brain farts, and new shooters I for one am willing to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and not assume they started with the incorrect hand position for a competitive advantage.  As a spotter I always try to call out the hand position if I notice the shooter appears to be starting wrong.  I wouldn't deliberately watch a shooter shoot the whole stage and then call a P, but maybe that's just me.

Most people feel the same way...and this is not coaching as the shooter has not yet taken the Start command (BEEP).

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1 hour ago, July Smith said:

I know rules are rules, but I for one sure do appreciate when the TO kindly reminds me of were my hands are supposed to start. 

 

Between a combo of nerves, adrenaline, senior moments, brain farts, and new shooters I for one am willing to give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and not assume they started with the incorrect hand position for a competitive advantage.  As a spotter I always try to call out the hand position if I notice the shooter appears to be starting wrong.  I wouldn't deliberately watch a shooter shoot the whole stage and then call a P, but maybe that's just me.

When I’m the TO I always look to see if the shooter is starting in the right position and that’s why I’m an awesome TO!!:P:lol:

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11 hours ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Again...in most cases, Yes.

If it is a shooter who "does not want to be talked to before I shoot, from loading table to unloading table" or "I don't want ANY coaching" (we all have encountered that shooter) then TO was right to keep quiet and shooter earned the penalty.

But yeah, I see your point.

 

If that was the case and the TO was determined to follow the request, then I guess he should have just stood there holding the timer with no beep till the shooter figured it out hisself? 

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1 minute ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

If that was the case and the TO was determined to follow the request, then I guess he should have just stood there holding the timer with no beep till the shooter figured it out hisself? 

Why?

 

When the shooter said "Ready", he get's the beep. To do what you say is no different than talking to him...and I'm damn sure not going to hold up the posse while he/she figures it out.

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Why?

 

When the shooter said "Ready", he get's the beep. To do what you say is no different than talking to him...and I'm damn sure not going to hold up the posse while he/she figures it out.

 

Phantom

 

Because the TO should not start the shooter in a faulted position. 

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4 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Because the TO should not start the shooter in a faulted position. 

Yeah...and so you'll just sit there...for...ever?

 

If we're going to get childish, best to not do it at a match. The Wire is a much better place to do it.

 

Phantom

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10 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah...and so you'll just sit there...for...ever?

 

If we're going to get childish, best to not do it at a match. The Wire is a much better place to do it.

 

Phantom

 

One of us seems to be confused about where we currently are. 

 

I did stipulate that if the TO was determined to abide by the no talking request I feel like this is his only option.  I have a hard time imagining anyone even asking for that.  We are definitely in a land of childish wire whatifs right now. 

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