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John Kloehr's Reloading Thread


John Kloehr

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21 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Loading manuals specify charges to a tenth of a grain.  You need to be able to weigh to a tenth of a grain accurately.  Rifle rounds will need the most powder.  Check loading manuals for the cartridge, bullet and powder you want to use and that will tell the full-scale you need.  From your list I suspect 30 grains will do. 

Grains... Grams... Google.

 

About 15.43 grains in a gram.

 

Just learned most US reload data is in grains, and most European reload data is in grams... If the powder won't fit in the cartridge (buried the case in a pile of powder) or it seems way way way too little powder is in the cartridge, might want to verify units.

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In the OP you mentioned looking at Dillon for a press. You will never be sorry if that is the way you go.  As for a scale , almost any balance-beam scale will suffice.

The one I use is over 45 years old , and is as good as when I bought it , 1973-ish.  An old RCBS 10-10.

Another thing you can't have too many of is loading manuals.

Good luck , and welcome to the madness.

Rex :D

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1 hour ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

... welcome to the madness.

Rex :D

And here is the first bit of madness. I don't yet need a press, maybe just a scoop and a scale and and some Elmer's glue. And primers, wads, powder, shot, and a couple other things. And maybe a stick.

 

Want to make smoke with this:

IMG_0324.jpg

Saw how to do it in a thread here about a week ago... And will check with a friend to look over my shoulder from primer installation to first smoke.

Thanks to a member here for sending me amazingly clean shells, I expected to have to get a tumbler and media and Dawn dish soap but these shells put me way ahead time-wise. But will still need a tumbler and media and Dawn dish soap soon.

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OK, found the thread:

 

And confirmed from various sites I need large pistol primers (the mention of "large rifle primers" was acknowledged as a typo in the thread). But I recall some recommendations for certain brands being better than others, either for ignition of BP or for slicked guns which might strike softer (not hard primers).

 

Then I need wads and overshot cards, shot, and powder. Oh goodie, more research and then searching for product.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

+1 to OLG... Starrett is top notch!

Starrett and Mitutoyo are my goto brands for real precision work "on the job." I can read vernier scales (pure mechanical), but my eyes aren't what they used to be... So I'm going for digital.

 

I can also use a slide rule and the HP 11C calculator, which kind of dates me...

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42 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

OK, found the thread:

 

And confirmed from various sites I need large pistol primers (the mention of "large rifle primers" was acknowledged as a typo in the thread). But I recall some recommendations for certain brands being better than others, either for ignition of BP or for slicked guns which might strike softer (not hard primers).

 

Then I need wads and overshot cards, shot, and powder. Oh goodie, more research and then searching for product.

 

 

Take a look at Ballistic Products for shotgun reloading supplies.  Try to buy shot locally.  Shipping costs for lead shot are high.  Lots of vendors sell smokeless powder.  You might try one of the BP subs until you are ready to buy a case of real black powder.  I can buy APP or 777 a jar at a time at local sporting goods stores.

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9 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Take a look at Ballistic Products for shotgun reloading supplies.  Try to buy shot locally.  Shipping costs for lead shot are high.  Lots of vendors sell smokeless powder.  You might try one of the BP subs until you are read to buy a case of real black powder.  I can buy APP or 777 a jar at a time at local sporting goods stores.

I read some reasons to not do Holy Black out of the gate, and can't quite remember the reasons now. Should have started this thread earlier so I could have documented those reasons.

 

For SASS, I am going to load BP. Everything here is to that end, with the mention in my OP of other calibers in smokeless only to not cut off the options and needs in other sports.

 

For the immediate project (12 GA brass shotshells), I'm now thinking about minimal tools and supplies. Then drill down to specific items, find and order them (that will be fun), and get to first smoke. I can hand-scrub a box worth of shells for the first time out without a tumbler.

 

I think I'll still be running my 3 Gun shotshells at the next shoot in mid-July, so mid-August is my target date to run my own shotgun loads.

 

I found Ballistic Products in an earlier search (thanks for confirming they are a good source), and will hopefully decide on specific products in the next week and get an order in.

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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

OK, found the thread:

 

And confirmed from various sites I need large pistol primers (the mention of "large rifle primers" was acknowledged as a typo in the thread). But I recall some recommendations for certain brands being better than others, either for ignition of BP or for slicked guns which might strike softer (not hard primers).

 

Then I need wads and overshot cards, shot, and powder. Oh goodie, more research and then searching for product.

 

 

 

Any brand LPP is fine for BP shotgun loads.

No need to drill for 209's.

Real BP is easier to ignite than smokeless. 

OLG 

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45 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Any brand LPP is fine for BP shotgun loads.

No need to drill for 209's.

Real BP is easier to ignite than smokeless. 

OLG 

You are clearly a fan of Holy Black. I truly respect that. Give me some time to get there.

 

Any concern about magnum large pistol primers? Will they increase pressures?

 

And poking around somewhat aimlessly at all of the places sold out of primers... And powder... Learned there are DOT HazMat fees for shipping these items. One vendor was charging $35/pound hazmat fee. Midway charges a single $11.99 fee up to (I think it was) 5 pounds. Had too much tequila to order now, also FFg or FFFg for this venture? Looks like FFFg will go off a lot faster? And can I order any powder that is Pyrodex independent of brand name or are there differences?

 

Hopefully I am asking all the right stupid questions rather than learning the hard way. Will also talk to a reloading friend tomorrow if he has time to put up with me :)

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Sodium Silicate... For sealing the tops of the loaded SG shells.

 

Reference found in one of the FAQs on this site says "mix with two parts water."

 

I found a gallon of 40% concrete sealer on Amazon for $19.99. Will that work?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Silicate-40-Water-Glass/dp/B00QL4ZV0I

 

I have read others have used Elmer's Glue for this purpose.

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10 hours ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said:

John,

 

I haven't met you yet.  The wife and I are normally regulars at Oak Ridge, but we haven't been up recently because of the "plague".

 

One of leadership team at Oak Ridge is Jackalope.  He is without a doubt one of the best resources in your area on shooting BP.  I can think of no one better as a mentor on loading BP.  

 

10 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

+1 on Jackalope

Aww, you guys....

:wub:

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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

You are clearly a fan of Holy Black. I truly respect that. Give me some time to get there.

 

Any concern about magnum large pistol primers? Will they increase pressures?

 

And poking around somewhat aimlessly at all of the places sold out of primers... And powder... Learned there are DOT HazMat fees for shipping these items. One vendor was charging $35/pound hazmat fee. Midway charges a single $11.99 fee up to (I think it was) 5 pounds. Had too much tequila to order now, also FFg or FFFg for this venture? Looks like FFFg will go off a lot faster? And can I order any powder that is Pyrodex independent of brand name or are there differences?

 

Hopefully I am asking all the right stupid questions rather than learning the hard way. Will also talk to a reloading friend tomorrow if he has time to put up with me :)

 

I've always been told to use FFg for larger calibers(44,45) and FFFg for smaller calibers. Personally I like FFFg in my 44's, burns a tad cleaner. 

 

Pyrodex is a BP sub that will start rusting your guns before you leave the range; avoid it.

 

Grafs or Powder Inc. are good sources for the real thing. You want Goex or Schuetzen. Grafs house brand(rebranded Goex) is good stuff too; I use reneactor in my shotguns and FFFg in my rifles and handguns regardless of caliber.

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5 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You can use mag LP primers. Just no need to.

Don't over think this.....

OLG 

I was looking at what is available. Until I found the mag primers, I did not even know there would be such a thing.

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You tube has many videos comparing and loading cartridges and shot shells for you to browse. 

 

Dillion Precision has free videos on there site on setting up and running their reloaders.    My opinion since your doing so many calibers is go with a Dillion because of the simple toolhead design and changeover between calibers.   I have a 550 and simply love it.  While yes it’s manually indexed, it’s just about foolproof and runs like 4 single stages.  Learning to reload cartridges was a bit different for me coming from shotshells.  The ease of the 550 has made that an easy to learn transition. 

 

Best thing that happened for me in cartridge reloading was the guy that introduced me to CAS had me over and showed me how to reload on his 550 first. Talk about shortening up a learning curve! 

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12 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Sodium Silicate... For sealing the tops of the loaded SG shells.

 

Reference found in one of the FAQs on this site says "mix with two parts water."

 

I found a gallon of 40% concrete sealer on Amazon for $19.99. Will that work?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sodium-Silicate-40-Water-Glass/dp/B00QL4ZV0I

 

I have read others have used Elmer's Glue for this purpose.

 

Sodium Silicate will dry out eventually.  The trick to glue is to have one that doesn't leave residue in the shell.  

 

1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

I was looking at what is available. Until I found the mag primers, I did not even know there would be such a thing.

 

For cowboy loads you can use magnum primers in anything.  

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17 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Dillon has calipers and scale.

I much prefer a mechanical .01 dial caliper that Starrett sells.

OLG 

I’ve got a Starrett dial caliper that is over 30 years old with lots of use on it . The largest standard i have is 4” , they are still accurate and have worked well for me . 
I would seriously consider a Dillon 550 . You can use it as a single stage and progressive. The truly progressive machines can be a pia to switch calibers . I personally have a rock chucker for low volume or load development, a 55O for when I want more ammo , and recently I picked up one of the new lee app presses it works great for processing brass and is quite inexpensive 

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On 6/24/2020 at 2:14 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I much prefer a mechanical .01 dial caliper that Starrett sells.

OLG 


I took your advice and picked up the Starrett 120A-6.
This is the only Made in USA product in their line.
Pricey, but buy once, cry once.

I have misplaced my vernier that I bought while working as a Toyota mechanic in the early 70s.
Ticks me off... misplacing tools, especially ones that cannot be replaced.

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8 hours ago, Buckshot Bob said:

I’ve got a Starrett dial caliper that is over 30 years old with lots of use on it . The largest standard i have is 4” , they are still accurate and have worked well for me . 
I would seriously consider a Dillon 550 . You can use it as a single stage and progressive. The truly progressive machines can be a pia to switch calibers . I personally have a rock chucker for low volume or load development, a 55O for when I want more ammo , and recently I picked up one of the new lee app presses it works great for processing brass and is quite inexpensive 

I'll get back to the other equipment, mainly replying to make a note to also pick up some standards.

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I use a hot glue gun to seal the overshot card in. Elmers will dry out as will most of the glues. Wax will break or come loose. The hot glue gun will sometimes leave a ring of glue in the shell. It doesn't matter as it doesn't interfere with anything it is quick to set up.

kR

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:


I took your advice and picked up the Starrett 120A-6.
This is the only Made in USA product in their line.
Pricey, but buy once, cry once.

I have misplaced my vernier that I bought while working as a Toyota mechanic in the early 70s.
Ticks me off... misplacing tools, especially ones that cannot be replaced.

A quality vernier is very accurate but when you’re eyesight starts to go they can be a chore . At least that’s the reason I rarely use mine anymore 

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1 hour ago, John Kloehr said:

I'll get back to the other equipment, mainly replying to make a note to also pick up some standards.

Not that you need them for reloading “but their nice”  if you were ever to get a set of micrometers they usually come with them . Sometimes you can find a good deal on a used set where someone got out of it or a relative dies . 

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4 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

A quality vernier is very accurate but when you’re eyesight starts to go they can be a chore . At least that’s the reason I rarely use mine anymore 

I'm buying digital, I do take pride in reading a vernier and properly interpolating the last digit; I hate changing glasses to see those tiny tic marks. But reading a number from those wonderful old-school marvels of engineering is a great skill to have. Same for slide rules, but I have an amazing graphing calculator now.

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While you are thinking of standards, I would suggest a set of scale test weights. They are not expensive.

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3 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

Not that you need them for reloading “but their nice”  if you were ever to get a set of micrometers they usually come with them . Sometimes you can find a good deal on a used set where someone got out of it or a relative dies . 

And the whole issue can be "cheated." Take a factory round and a piece of flat stock. Cut a notch and file until the round just passes through. OAL gauge done, no idea what the actual number is, and it does not matter. But it is the same as a factory round so it will chamber.

 

But I'm an engineer too, so I'll get a caliper and a notebook. But there have been a few side-of-road problems... Where precision (knowing the number) is not as important as accuracy (it fits). Sometimes it just has to fit.

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26 minutes ago, Buckshot Bob said:

Not that you need them for reloading “but their nice”  if you were ever to get a set of micrometers they usually come with them . Sometimes you can find a good deal on a used set where someone got out of it or a relative dies . 

I also have other projects where more accuracy than reloading is needed (having learned this process is a bit looser than some of my plans).

 

But I am thinking some of the tools like a caliper should just live on the reloading bench so I don't have to chase them down. So, if $20 to $40 satisfies reloading, I can put off a $100 caliper until I need it. But a set of blocks will not live on the reloading bench.

 

A long time ago in a shop far, far, away, someone "borrowed" (without asking) a vernier micrometer and used it as a C-clamp. It would still zero afterwards, but 1" was now 1.04". Threw it in the trash can right in front of him and made him sign a purchase requisition to replace it.

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11 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

And the whole issue can be "cheated." Take a factory round and a piece of flat stock. Cut a notch and file until the round just passes through. OAL gauge done, no idea what the actual number is, and it does not matter. But it is the same as a factory round so it will chamber.

 

But I'm an engineer too, so I'll get a caliper and a notebook. But there have been a few side-of-road problems... Where precision (knowing the number) is not as important as accuracy (it fits). Sometimes it just has to fit.

 

OAL Does matter and getting it wrong can have catastrophic consequences.

 

Not all bullet weights / profiles are loaded to the same OAL. 

 

There are a lot of variables that may or may not be of concern with ammo loaded for CAS that can be the difference between a safe load and a blown up firearm when loading ammo for other uses. This is doubly true for shotshells.

In some cases changing the brand of primer can be the difference between safe and unsafe. Changing lot numbers of same powder can have a major impact. Some loads are only safe to use in certain firearms.

 

Don't mean to be harsh but you want to learn and a significant part of reloading is knowing when deviating from a published recipe is ok and when it can cause you serious injury.

 

Most important is that just because someone else does it doesn't mean it is safe.

 

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3 hours ago, bgavin said:


I took your advice and picked up the Starrett 120A-6.
This is the only Made in USA product in their line.
Pricey, but buy once, cry once.

I have misplaced my vernier that I bought while working as a Toyota mechanic in the early 70s.
Ticks me off... misplacing tools, especially ones that cannot be replaced.

 

That's the one I've been using for the last 25+ yrs.

OLG 

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8 hours ago, Kid Rich said:

I use a hot glue gun to seal the overshot card in. Elmers will dry out as will most of the glues. Wax will break or come loose. The hot glue gun will sometimes leave a ring of glue in the shell. It doesn't matter as it doesn't interfere with anything it is quick to set up.

kR

 

I've been using Duco Cement with great results.  Dries quick and I haven't found any residue left in the shell.

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9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

OAL Does matter and getting it wrong can have catastrophic consequences.

 

Not all bullet weights / profiles are loaded to the same OAL. 

 

There are a lot of variables that may or may not be of concern with ammo loaded for CAS that can be the difference between a safe load and a blown up firearm when loading ammo for other uses. This is doubly true for shotshells.

In some cases changing the brand of primer can be the difference between safe and unsafe. Changing lot numbers of same powder can have a major impact. Some loads are only safe to use in certain firearms.

 

Don't mean to be harsh but you want to learn and a significant part of reloading is knowing when deviating from a publish recipe is ok and when it can cause you serious injury.

 

Most important is that just because someone else does it doesn't mean it is safe.

 

Don't be afraid of being harsh. Safety first and I know I am learning to roll up my own explosives.

 

That lot numbers can have a major impact is a surprise to me, I would expect consistency from major brands.

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Ordering shot.

 

I've seen posts ranging from size 6 to 9, 7-1/2 seems to come up a lot.

 

65# of 7-1/2 shot. Seemed like a lot of shot until I did a bit of rough math. Assuming a 1 oz load (eyeball for easy math, not a formula spec) and just over a box of shells per match, shooting every month, it is less than a three year supply. Still seems like a lot but it isn't.

 

When I saw how much was in a bag, it seemed like a lifetime supply. Since it is lead, the bag will also probably be surprisingly small.

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Just now, John Kloehr said:

Ordering shot.

 

I've seen posts ranging from size 6 to 9, 7-1/2 seems to come up a lot.

 

65# of 7-1/2 shot. Seemed like a lot of shot until I did a bit of rough math. Assuming a 1 oz load (eyeball for easy math, not a formula spec) and just over a box of shells per match, shooting every month, it is less than a three year supply. Still seems like a lot but it isn't.

 

When I saw how much was in a bag, it seemed like a lifetime supply. Since it is lead, the bag will also probably be surprisingly small.

 

@SHOOTIN FOX is a good source for shot.

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