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Clay Thornton

Duelist spotting/timing

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Posted (edited)

Who between the spotters and the TO would be the best official to call a duelist on having two loaded pistols out at the same time?  Most TOs are focused on the muzzle of the pistol being shot and the reholster of the first pistol. Most Spotters are focused on the targets. Who can make that call and who should?

Edited by Clay Thornton

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The TO should be watching the movements of the shooter. 

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TOs call the procedurals, this one included.   Good ones will take input from spotters on the call, as well.

 

Quote

Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to
verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

Page 22, Shooters Handbook

 

TO has the rest of the responsibilities for calls on the line.

 

Good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Clay Thornton said:

Who between the spotters and the TO would be the best official to call a duelist on having two loaded pistols out at the same time?  Most TOs are focused on the muzzle of the pistol being shot and the reholster of the first pistol. Most Spotters are focused on the targets. Who can make that call and who should?

Not a penalty until one is cocked.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Not a penalty until one is cocked.


Are you sure?  I thought the second revolver could not clear the holster until the first revolver is empty.  I don’t think cocking enters into it.

 

If the second revolver remains in hand out of the holster while the first revolver is being shot, the shooter should be penalized.  If drawn improperly the second revolver would have to be reholstered before shooting the first revolver.

Edited by J-BAR #18287

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Not a penalty until one is cocked.

This is correct.  

Just having 2 loaded revolvers in hand is not a penalty.  But, as soon as one of the revolvers is cocked,  then the penalty is assessed. 

If the shooter draws 2, catches themselves and holsters one prior to cocking either,  no call.

If the shooter has drawn the 2nd revolver before the 5th shot of the 1st is fired - then the shooter has earned a penalty for shooting out of category (progressive penalty).

As to who should be watching for something like this,  TO has the best advantage. 

 

BS

Edited by Barry Sloe
changed verbage to have 2nd revolver drawn, per Sedalia Dave's comment.
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Ok , I agree. I misread “one cocked” as meaning “second one cocked”.

 

Thanks.

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8 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

If the shooter is drawing the 2nd revolver before the 5th shot of the 1st is fired - then the shooter has earned a penalty for shooting out of category (progressive penalty).

 

As a clarification; Until the muzzle clears the holster is is not considered drawn.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

When a Duelist pulls out the 2nd revolver and the 1st revolver is still out with live rounds (2 loaded revolvers out at the same time – only legal when in the Gunfighter or B-Western Category), can the shooter re-holster the 2nd revolver before shooting any rounds and not get penalized for shooting out of category? 

ROC Reply: In this situation, the shooter may holster one of the firearms to avoid the penalty, up until the point when either of the two revolvers is cocked.

In other words, unless ONE of the revolvers is cocked, the shooter may simply holster one of the revolvers to avoid the penalty.

 

Note: The “2 loaded revolvers out” ruling applies to ALL non-Gunfighter/B-Western shooters, not to Duelists exclusively (e.g. a Gunfighter/B-Western competitor shooting in a category other than Gunfighter or B-Western who draws both pistols out of habit).

 

WR TG Meeting - 2017

 

Quote

Only Gunfighters and B-Western categories allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time.  

This may be corrected in regard to any other categories before cocking either one without penalty.

SHB p.15

 

Quote

Revolver in hand – when the muzzle of the revolver clears the mouth of the holster, or breaks contact with a prop where it was staged.

SHB p.46  

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
add references
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Posted (edited)
Quote

ASSESSING PENALTIES AND PROTESTS

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed.  The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters.  The scope of assessing penalties includes safety violations, procedural errors, appropriate completion of stage activities, illegal firearms and equipment, appropriate ammunition, appropriate dress, and other category specific requirements such as the adequate production of smoke in the blackpowder categories.  

The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses).  Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters. 

SHB pp.24-25

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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The TO

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

This is correct.  

Just having 2 loaded revolvers in hand is not a penalty.  But, as soon as one of the revolvers is cocked,  then the penalty is assessed. 

If the shooter draws 2, catches themselves and holsters one prior to cocking either,  no call.

If the shooter is drawing the 2nd revolver before the 5th shot of the 1st is fired - then the shooter has earned a penalty for shooting out of category (progressive penalty).

As to who should be watching for something like this,  TO has the best advantage. 

 

BS

Please see PWB's post below, and Page 6 of the Shooters Handbook. The penalty is for two Loaded revolvers, not Cocked. 

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15 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Please see PWB's post below, and Page 6 of the Shooters Handbook. The penalty is for two Loaded revolvers, not Cocked. 

 

The entire quote from page 6 of the SHB is:

  • "The competitor shall not have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.  (This may be corrected before cocking either one without penalty.)"

So, per the SHB, if 2 loaded revolvers are drawn and one is re-holstered prior to either being cocked, it is a no call.  It is ALL about cocked or not.

 

BS

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Allllllllright. Enough! You can pick on those nasty Soot Lords all you want. You can pick on the Prairie Fairies too. And you can even pick on the brain damaged Gunfighters. But leave us Duelists alone. :P

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4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

Allllllllright. Enough! You can pick on those nasty Soot Lords all you want. You can pick on the Prairie Fairies too. And you can even pick on the brain damaged Gunfighters. But leave us Duelists alone. :P

 

"..... brain damaged Gunfighters."    :lol:

 

You got that right.   Next cold one is on me, SB. ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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11 hours ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Please see PWB's post below, and Page 6 of the Shooters Handbook. The penalty is for two Loaded revolvers, not Cocked. 

 

?

I don't think that is what PBW stated.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Interesting responses. Just goes to show ya how memorable undocumented (in the SHB) clarifications can be.

 

"undocumented"?? 

 

Quote

o The competitor shall not have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.  (This may be corrected before cocking either one without penalty.) 

SHB p.6

 

Quote

- Only Gunfighters and B-Western categories allow two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time.  This may be corrected in regard to any other categories before cocking either one without penalty. 

SHB p.15

 

 

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4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

Allllllllright. Enough! You can pick on those nasty Soot Lords all you want. You can pick on the Prairie Fairies too. And you can even pick on the brain damaged Gunfighters. But leave us Duelists alone. :P

 

3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

"..... brain damaged Gunfighters."    :lol:

 

You got that right.   Next cold one is on me, SB. ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

As a nasty Soot Lord and a soon to be Prairie Fairy I'll be with Widder on this one...SB I'll take a cold one too. :D

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20 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

As a clarification; Until the muzzle clears the holster is is not considered drawn.

, Or breaks  contact  with  a  prop  where  it  was  staged.

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4 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

"undocumented"?? 

 

SHB p.6

 

SHB p.15

 

 

I apologize. What really got me was FWR's post.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/13/2020 at 4:53 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

Withdrawn.  (I was looking at an older SHB version, and the rule has been updated.) 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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