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Utah Bob #35998

Regarding masks

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On 5/14/2020 at 11:15 AM, DocWard said:

 

 

From the article and linked study, it seems the scientists tend to disagree. I have several doctor friends and others in the medical and science fields who would disagree.

 


So, instead of thinking of it as a chain link fence, maybe look at it as a wooden privacy fence. Yes, a bit of water gets through and gets you damp, but you don't get as soaked, and that can make all the difference on whether you need to go change clothes or not.

It seems the surgeon general disagrees with the linked article.

I did read the piece and I admit I am a bit skeptical of most published articles these days as so many are contradictory to one another. Thank you for the link and hope all is well with you and yours. 
Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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Posted (edited)

And unless the mask allows expelled air to FREELY escape, you will be rebreathing your own carbon dioxide. Do it long enough and you will get one hell of a headache. Continue to do and you will pass out from lack of oxygen. Never wear a wet or dirty mask!

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

It seems the surgeon general disagrees with the linked article.

 

Can you give a reference for this?

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Live about south central Missouri in Benton County. Population is around 10,000 with Warsaw, the county seat at around 2,000. When all this started we went around 6 weeks without any cases. As the weather warmed up the city folks started flocking in. We now have 8 cases the last I heard. We originally had 3 and as the weekends came around on Monday's we were having more cases. Stupid city slickers they are now all over the place and we know the cases will increase as summer comes around.:angry:

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1 hour ago, Smoken D said:

Live about south central Missouri in Benton County. Population is around 10,000 with Warsaw, the county seat at around 2,000. When all this started we went around 6 weeks without any cases. As the weather warmed up the city folks started flocking in. We now have 8 cases the last I heard. We originally had 3 and as the weekends came around on Monday's we were having more cases. Stupid city slickers they are now all over the place and we know the cases will increase as summer comes around.:angry:

 

Could it be they are testing more?  They have ramped up production of the testing kits and laboratories are geared up to test in volume.   So they are testing more of the general population.  

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20 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

Could it be they are testing more?  They have ramped up production of the testing kits and laboratories are geared up to test in volume.   So they are testing more of the general population.  

 

No, those infected were older folks who's kids came to visit which they traced the kids being around infected people then brought it down to grandma and grandpa.

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4 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

And unless the mask allows expelled air to FREELY escape, you will be rebreathing your own carbon dioxide. Do it long enough and you will get one hell of a headache. Continue to do and you will pass out from lack of oxygen. Never wear a wet or dirty mask!

 

A mask can’t contain enough Co2 to adversely affect you. A sealed astronaut’s helmet could, but not the type of masks we’re talking about.

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And then there are other social aspects...

 

I go to the store. Lots of people wearing masks. Not N95 masks, not even surgical masks. No, they are wearing homemade masks. Which are probably of little value.

 

And they all cluster together due to the perceived immunity they have from infection because of a likely useless mask.

 

So I don't wear a mask. I come down the store aisle. The people clear out because I don't have a mask. Well, all but maybe a couple people. But one little cough from me clears them out too and then I can shop in peace.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

Could it be they are testing more?  They have ramped up production of the testing kits and laboratories are geared up to test in volume.   So they are testing more of the general population.  

There is more testing. Consider these tests a dry run to detect infection with easing restrictions.

 

My county has 90,000 residents. In peak tourist season, we have a population of 1,000,000 which changes every week or so.

 

There have been a few testing "events" which have turned up about a dozen or so cases. This is in line with the expected false-positive rate for the various PCR tests. Maybe these cases really are asymptomatic carriers, and maybe they are false positives... Can't know for sure yet.

 

But, if a testing event next month or the month after that with the same number of participants shows 10 times as many cases, then there is clearly something real happening even if some of the tests are still false positives.

 

Time will tell...

Edited by John Kloehr

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On 5/14/2020 at 6:09 PM, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

F8135D3F-227F-48F5-9D24-1F28FF35C289.jpeg

 

This mentality would say that it's pointless to cage a rabid dog, because the virus and their teeth could both fit through the bars.

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

No, it’s saying that cloth masks are ineffective. Sorry that was not clear. 

 


https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

 

Why go with medical expertise, when memes are much better informed?
 

The point of masks isn’t stopping the virus, it’s stopping the drops of spit that carry the virus, just as the point of a cage isn’t stopping the rabies virus or the bite, but stopping the dog that catties it. 
 

Sorry that was too subtle. 

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 "there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19."

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4 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

 "there is currently no evidence that wearing a mask (whether medical or other types) by healthy persons in the wider community setting, including universal community masking, can prevent them from infection with respiratory viruses, including COVID-19."


Thank you for the source and the selective quote. The title and subtitles of the SAME article:


The truth about face masks and the coronavirus: Wearing masks in crowded places may help reduce the spread, but it isn't a perfect solution

 

  • Scientific studies about the effectiveness of masks remain inconclusive. Some have found that they might help a bit in preventing illnesses from spreading, but others suggest they're not worth putting on.
  • Because the novel coronavirus appears to be easily spread by asymptomatic people, it's possible that masks might help prevent people who don't yet know they're infected from spreading it to others.
  • Some epidemiologists recommend wearing a mask or other face covering if you need to be in crowded spaces, like when you're going to the supermarket or using public transportation.
  • "It's like a civic duty," said Elaine Shuo Feng, an Oxford epidemiologist and statistician, adding, "People wear the mask to protect themselves and also protect others."

The months-old ‘you don’t need a mask’ bit has done a lot to undermine what should be a very simple precaution against spreading the disease.  But anti-mask people are not going to wear them, even if it got handed down on a stone tablet — their right to choose not to wear a mask is more important than the possibility of infecting someone else.

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Afraid — Stay away from sharks. Unafraid — jump in with a Great White. 
 

See, that works for other things, too. 
 

I get it — you’re not going to wear one, and need to feel noble about it. 
 

No problem. Never said it wasn’t your choice. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:


Thank you for the source and the selective quote. The title and subtitles of the SAME article:


The truth about face masks and the coronavirus: Wearing masks in crowded places may help reduce the spread, but it isn't a perfect solution

 

  • Scientific studies about the effectiveness of masks remain inconclusive. Some have found that they might help a bit in preventing illnesses from spreading, but others suggest they're not worth putting on.
  • Because the novel coronavirus appears to be easily spread by asymptomatic people, it's possible that masks might help prevent people who don't yet know they're infected from spreading it to others.
  • Some epidemiologists recommend wearing a mask or other face covering if you need to be in crowded spaces, like when you're going to the supermarket or using public transportation.
  • "It's like a civic duty," said Elaine Shuo Feng, an Oxford epidemiologist and statistician, adding, "People wear the mask to protect themselves and also protect others."

The months-old ‘you don’t need a mask’ bit has done a lot to undermine what should be a very simple precaution against spreading the disease.  But anti-mask people are not going to wear them, even if it got handed down on a stone tablet — their right to choose not to wear a mask is more important than the possibility of infecting someone else.

Give it a break why don’t you? I can’t wear a mask because of very limited lung capacity and I’ve tried every mask available including a bandana which doesn’t work either. Not everyone buys into the same BS that you do get used to it, it’s called freedom. Sheesh!!!

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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No one’s saying masks are the 100% solution. And I understand the problems you have and appreciate that you tried. 
 

But as long as we’re talking about freedom, I don’t think that extends to one side of the discussion making comments and expecting them to go un-challenged. 

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58 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

7E8409BB-13BF-4755-8C55-49A22689753C.jpeg


 

I do more on the ‘Not Afraid’ side than on the ‘Afraid’ side. 
 

But I still wear a mask when it’s appropriate. 

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8 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:


 

I do more on the ‘Not Afraid’ side than on the ‘Afraid’ side. 
 

But I still wear a mask when it’s appropriate. 

Feeling “noble” are you?

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Feeling “noble” are you?


No, just independent. Making my choices based on current information and personal freedom. 
 

If there’s a ‘noble’ involved, it would be because I wear a mask more out of consideration for others than for myself. 
 

How about you?

Edited by Ozark Huckleberry

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6 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:


No, just independent. Making my choices based on current information and personal freedom. 
 

If there’s a ‘noble’ involved, it would be because I wear a mask more out of consideration for others than for myself. 
 

How about you?

Independent also and choose not to be fooled like many others have.

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17 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Can you give a reference for this?

Don’t know how to post a link but LifeZette.com may 14 time stamp 5:03

about 1/2 through is what I was looking at. 

i did a lookup on “surgeon general” and it brought up two or three articles. 
The previously linked article in the Atlantic stated that masks were 99% effective at stopping transmission of the virus which sounds a bit high and that is what I am questioning. 
regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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2 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Independent also and choose not to be fooled like many others have.


I completely agree with you one one point — there are plenty of things about the pandemic that have been twisted and manipulated. 
 

But I’m not going to conflate the possible benefits of wearing a mask with other issues. 

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1 hour ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:


I completely agree with you one one point — there are plenty of things about the pandemic that have been twisted and manipulated. 
 

But I’m not going to conflate the possible benefits of wearing a mask with other issues. 

“Possible benefits”. Exactly!  I carry a gun because it’s possible something bad might happen. I’ll take possible.

I buy Powerball tickets too. ;) It’s possible I might win. 

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Meanwhile,  someone is getting mugged on the parking lot,  down the street a drug deal is going down,  across town a kid is being kidnapped,  down town someone was snatched up for human trafficking to be used to harvest body parts, a car has been stolen, a gang turf war has broken out,  a 10 car pileup on the interstate is short of responders. 

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1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

Meanwhile,  someone is getting mugged on the parking lot,  down the street a drug deal is going down,  across town a kid is being kidnapped,  down town someone was snatched up for human trafficking to be used to harvest body parts, a car has been stolen, a gang turf war has broken out,  a 10 car pileup on the interstate is short of responders. 

 

That a Saturday night in Missouri?

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If you’re uncomfortable wearing a mask think how you’ll feel on a ventilator. There is a hell of a difference between being afraid and being cautious and prudent 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

That a Saturday night in Missouri?

 

No. Because I see no enforcement going on.  Our sheriff posted a statement early on supporting the lockdown but basically said enforcement was unconstitutional and their office would not put effort into enforcing it.  There are no mask mandate in my area that I'm aware of.  There are some bazaar changes we are seeing.  Casey's has taken out their surve yourself pastry stand.   They are in a counter display and a sales clerk has to bag them up. And worst of all,  no more day-old doughnuts!  Why day-old doughnuts are a health hazards I can't imagine. 

 

I need to add that we have a major drug problem.  Meth labs and marijuana growing and crime that is spun off that of robberies and such.  I'd support our law enforcement working at reducing this menus to our community than entering in a mask dispute. 

Edited by Warden Callaway
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Because the novel coronavirus appears to be easily spread by asymptomatic people, it's possible that masks might help prevent people who don't yet know they're infected from spreading it to others.

There are two ways to look at these details.

 

First, just like the common cold and flu, and other coronaviruses like HKU1... There is a period of a few days when a person is infectious and does not have symptoms. Then they get symptoms.

 

Second, the concept of people spreading Sars-Cov2 and not ever getting symptoms is not proven. There is at this time no evidence of a "Typhoid Mary" giving people CoViD19. What  has been found is a false positive rate in the various PCR tests.

 

So "someone" tests positive. They self-quarantine for 14 days. They never have symptoms. The get another nasal swab and it comes back negative so they are not infected now.

 

So, was that an asymptomatic case or a false positive? It will take many months to truly answer that question with scientific certainty. But at this time, the reality of masks is this:

 

  • It will likely not prevent you from catching this or any other virus unless you have a properly fitted N95 mask
  • It will not prevent you from spreading a virus unless you have a surgical mask and limit contact with vulnerable people
  • Not wearing a mask makes more people stay away from you than wearing a likely useless bandana over your face
Edited by John Kloehr
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Posted (edited)

 

12 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

First, just like the common cold and flu, and other coronaviruses like HKU1... There is a period of a few days when a person is infectious and does not have symptoms. Then they get symptoms.

 

But unlike the common cold and the flu, Covid-19 is more contagious -- in part because of its novelty, in part because of the lack of herd immunity or vaccines, in part because of ineffective preventive measures. Novelty -- can't do much about except learn. Vaccines and herd immunity -- working on it. Preventive measures -- well, one of those is what we're talking about right here.

 

A few bits to speak to your assertion:

 

 

From Harvard Medical School

How soon after I'm infected with the new coronavirus will I start to be contagious?

 

The time from exposure to symptom onset (known as the incubation period) is thought to be three to 14 days, though symptoms typically appear within four or five days after exposure.

 

We know that a person with COVID-19 may be contagious 48 to 72 hours before starting to experience symptoms. Emerging research suggests that people may actually be most likely to spread the virus to others during the 48 hours before they start to experience symptoms.

 

If true, this strengthens the case for face masks, physical distancing, and contact tracing, all of which can help reduce the risk that someone who is infected but not yet contagious may unknowingly infect others.

 

From MIT Medical

Is a person with COVID-19 contagious before symptoms appear?

 

Yes, evidence indicates that people who are infected with 2019-nCoV may become contagious before symptoms are noticeable. In addition, it is now estimated that up to 25 percent of infected individuals remain asymptomatic and may unwittingly infect others. For that reason, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) is now recommending that individuals wear non-medical-grade, cloth face coverings in public settings where it may be difficult to maintain social distancing, such as grocery stores. If everyone wears masks, this might help prevent those who are unknowingly infected from spreading the illness.

 

12 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

Second, the concept of people spreading Sars-Cov2 and not ever getting symptoms is not proven. There is at this time no evidence of a "Typhoid Mary" giving people CoViD19. What  has been found is a false positive rate in the various PCR tests.

 

 

From Johns Hopkins University:

 

What are the implications of asymptomatic spread for the COVID-19 pandemic?

 

Asymptomatic spread has not been good news thus far. A growing body of results shows that people who are asymptomatic appear to have the same viral load as symptomatic cases. This means that, whether people have symptoms or not, they carry the same amount of virus inside them. This suggests that transmission is possible equally from both asymptomatic patients and noticeably sick patients.

 

From New England Journal of Medicine

 

An important finding of this report is that more than half the residents of this skilled nursing facility (27 of 48) who had positive tests were asymptomatic at testing. Moreover, live coronavirus clearly sheds at high concentrations from the nasal cavity even before symptom development. Although the investigators were not able to retrospectively elucidate specific person-to-person transmission events and although symptom ascertainment may be unreliable in a group in which more than half the residents had cognitive impairment, these results indicate that asymptomatic persons are playing a major role in the transmission of SARS-CoV-2. 

 

12 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

So, was that an asymptomatic case or a false positive? It will take many months to truly answer that question with scientific certainty. But at this time, the reality of masks is this:

 

  • It will likely not prevent you from catching this or any other virus unless you have a properly fitted N95 mask
  • It will not prevent you from spreading a virus unless you have a surgical mask and limit contact with vulnerable people
  • Not wearing a mask makes more people stay away from you than wearing a likely useless bandana over your face

 

Umm -- to put it gently, your 'reality' isn't really that real -- it's more  your opinion with a small dash of truth about N95 masks for seasoning. 

 

'Will likely not' -- so, if it isn't perfect, you shouldn't do it? Man, if a mask makes it 10% less likely I'll contract a potentially fatal disease, I'll do what I can to improve the odds. But wearing a mask isn't all about me, either.

 

Re 'spreading the virus' -- here's a video of an experiment done recently -- what flies out of your mouth just from talking. The 'mask' it refers to isn't a 'surgical mask' -- it's a simple washcloth, slightly dampened to simulate a mask dampened by someone's breath and held loosely over the speaker's mouth:

 

 

Wearing fresh cat scat around your neck will help even blind folks avoid you, too. But really -- is being avoided because people see you as inconsiderate and a potential menace something you see as a virtue?

 

So, given your assertions on one hand, and the opinions of a preponderance of medical professionals on the other, please don't be offended if I give a little more credence to the medical professionals. I've found one medically-credentialed source who argues against wearing a mask, but even there she modified her position by saying people with symptoms or who thought they might be infected should wear a mask (refer to asymptomatic discussion above), and that keeping people home would be more effective in stopping the spread.

Infection Control Today -- journal article against masks

 

 

Edited by Ozark Huckleberry
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33 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

... please don't be offended

I'm not the least bit offended.

 

And your citations do not disagree with my belief.

 

My main point is that the masks people are wearing provide a false sense of security. This is a social issue.

 

People are still clustering in store aisles and elsewhere. Better to stay away from them completely. A piece of ordinary cloth does not make it safe to be among them.

 

And the studies do not really claim this virus is more virulent than any other virus, it may be more deadly compared to the average flu. The lack of herd immunity is a huge issue. It is the huge issue. Even if Sars-Cov2 was half as deadly and half as contagious as the average flu, it would still infect and kill more people simply due to the lack of any immunity in the population.

 

Herd immunity really does not help until somewhere around 70% of the population acquires it, and becomes much more effective around 90%.

 

The way to get into the minority of protected people is driven more by staying away from people, not touching yourself above the shoulders in public, washing well and often (and before picking that eyelash out of your eyelid) than trusting a piece of cloth.

 

Perhaps the cloth will help in the event of an exposure. Maybe it could cut down the amount of virus you take in which could give your immune system a little more time to react. But for those wearing masks... How often do you change them in a day? How do you sanitize them? How do you handle them between wearings? Where do you set them down when not wearing them? How many ways can you expose yourself with a mask compared to not having one and maintaining distance from others.

 

I am not a Covid denier. I do believe masks are not working the way they should socially. The way it should work is people would give deference to staying away from those with masks. It should be seen as "I am wearing a mask because I am vulnerable, please stay away from me as I stay away from you." What I see is "I am wearing a mask so it does not matter if I approach you."

 

As I stated in an earlier post in this thread, and I am repeating it, this is a social issue and a scrap of cloth is not making us safer in reality, even if it could in theory. If we run into each other at the store -- whether you are wearing a mask or not -- lets keep our distance from each other. We both want to be first in the 30% and then in the 10%.

 

I was in one of the local grocery stores a few days ago, one I had not been in for a month. I'm not going to shop there again for a while even though they carry some items I can not get at the "other" store. I cut my trip short. I won't be back for a while because of how many people were clearly going to contribute to herd immunity. And many of them were wearing masks. 

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only a few months ago, the people who were making jokes about other people using scarves, handkerchiefs, bandana's or even masks from Home Depot designed for sheetrock dust none of which will stop bacteria or viruses, are now the same people demanding people wear these very things to prevent spreading disease.  

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