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Oddnews SASS# 24779

Greener

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To all at the fire -- I haven't taken possession yet and I don't have photos -- but I grew up listening to the Duke call for his "Greeners" in Big Jake, and I finally have one. I have a treble-wedge Facile Princeps, just purchased from Gunbroker. This one has been messed with a lot (someone set a British coin into the left side of the buttstock, for openers). The right-hand barrel has a "ding" in it, and the barrels are twist -- but I OWN A GREENER.

Now, if that ding is really bad, I may have it sleeved to 16 (it's a 12), and use smokeless. If the ding is just a ding, I'll roll my own BP shells. I'm going to shoot at least one match equipped with an original 1892 Winchester, two actual Colt (non-Clone) Peacemakers, and a Greener shotgun. I don't mean to brag -- but this makes me want to shout YEE-HAW!!!

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You need a Remington derringer to complete the look! 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

PLZ-Use ONLY BP loads in it.

OLG

 

Well, the ad said it was nitro proofed -- but I couldn't see the proof marks clearly enough to confirm that. If it isn't, it's a BP only proposition and I'm fine with that. I bought it with the idea that I might have to have the barrels sleeved, and if I do that, then it can be  set up for modern ammo, but I need to see it before I make any determination on that.

 

Edited by Oddnews SASS# 24779

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15 minutes ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

 

Well, the ad said it was nitro proofed -- but I couldn't see the proof marks clearly enough to confirm that. If it isn't, it's a BP only proposition and I'm fine with that. I bought it with the idea that I might have to have the barrels sleeved, and if I do that, then it can be  set up for modern ammo, but I need to see it before I make any determination on that.

 

I would never shoot any 'twist' barreled SG with smokeless. Sleeved or not.

You are still dealing with a BP receiver and breechface.

OLG

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1 hour ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

To all at the fire -- I haven't taken possession yet and I don't have photos -- but I grew up listening to the Duke call for his "Greeners" in Big Jake, and I finally have one. I have a treble-wedge Facile Princeps, just purchased from Gunbroker. This one has been messed with a lot (someone set a British coin into the left side of the buttstock, for openers). The right-hand barrel has a "ding" in it, and the barrels are twist -- but I OWN A GREENER.

Now, if that ding is really bad, I may have it sleeved to 16 (it's a 12), and use smokeless. If the ding is just a ding, I'll roll my own BP shells. I'm going to shoot at least one match equipped with an original 1892 Winchester, two actual Colt (non-Clone) Peacemakers, and a Greener shotgun. I don't mean to brag -- but this makes me want to shout YEE-HAW!!!

What about Betsy(I believe that’s what he called his Remington derringer) at least it looked like a Remington. The derringer was in the shotgun case with the Greeners, one for him and one for Brice Cabot. What derringer are you going to use ?  I like the look of American instead of a Bond, but that is just me. You have my appreciation and my envy as a fellow Duke fan. 

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Mr. W.W. Greener's "The Gun and Its Development" probably has more knowledge per page than any other gun book I've read.  Hope you find his guns to be as good.  Oh boy!

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A twist barrel with any kind of dent can make for a weak spot.  Neat old gun for sure though.

 

I'd go straight away to getting the barrels lined and use only black powder like the Duke did.

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2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I would never shoot any 'twist' barreled SG with smokeless. Sleeved or not.

You are still dealing with a BP receiver and breechface.

OLG



I've read about extensive testing that makes me worry less about that problem. You might find this interesting: https://media.mwstatic.com/cms/larrys-stories/2017_6/183_damascus-barrels-rumors-and-facts.pdf

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1 hour ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:



I've read about extensive testing that makes me worry less about that problem. You might find this interesting: https://media.mwstatic.com/cms/larrys-stories/2017_6/183_damascus-barrels-rumors-and-facts.pdf

I also depends on how well the SG was cared for....

Unless that bbl has been in an x-ray for internal corrosion. 

I will hang it on the wall....

YMMV,

OLG

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6 hours ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

To all at the fire -- I haven't taken possession yet and I don't have photos -- but I grew up listening to the Duke call for his "Greeners" in Big Jake, and I finally have one. I have a treble-wedge Facile Princeps, just purchased from Gunbroker. This one has been messed with a lot (someone set a British coin into the left side of the buttstock, for openers). The right-hand barrel has a "ding" in it, and the barrels are twist -- but I OWN A GREENER.

Now, if that ding is really bad, I may have it sleeved to 16 (it's a 12), and use smokeless. If the ding is just a ding, I'll roll my own BP shells. I'm going to shoot at least one match equipped with an original 1892 Winchester, two actual Colt (non-Clone) Peacemakers, and a Greener shotgun. I don't mean to brag -- but this makes me want to shout YEE-HAW!!!

Can't usually do that- sleeves come out too thin, I suppose. Most 12 gauge sleeves are to 20 (or smaller).

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During my tenure as a Gunsmith, I had occasion to handle and work on quite a few Damascus/Twist barrels.  Some of those barrels were works of art.  The patters in man of the Damascus was just striking.  Some of the higher end guns were heavy enough in the breach/chamber area I would have no qualms shooting them.  Those guns were nominally priced well above my budget.  On in particular, a gun begun in 1900, was only completed in the 1990s and was priced just shy of a hundred grand.  I'd shoot it.

 

Where were however, a lot of budget priced guns that are today, very risky to shoot.  I only have one left hand.  I also know, after a proof load, you only know the gun survived that ONE proof firing.  The next firing ???  I'm not interested.  A 12Ga can only be tubed to 20Ga or smaller.  Lined with quality tubes, you can actually shoot about anything.  I would be concerned about heavy target or "goose" loads having an adverse effect on the breach face and head space.  Either way, a quality Damascus or even tubed, I'd probably only shoot BP.  I believe I mentioned, I only have one left hand and only two eyes.  I'll keep them intact .... Thank You.

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3 hours ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:



I've read about extensive testing that makes me worry less about that problem. You might find this interesting: https://media.mwstatic.com/cms/larrys-stories/2017_6/183_damascus-barrels-rumors-and-facts.pdf

I think this brings to mind two questions.  The first is do you discount the fact that the author specifically said you need a gunsmith to certify that such a gun is safe, and the second is what about the other people shooting with you, are they comfortable being there when smokeless is shot through a gun that may not be safe?

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8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think this brings to mind two questions.  The first is do you discount the fact that the author specifically said you need a gunsmith to certify that such a gun is safe, and the second is what about the other people shooting with you, are they comfortable being there when smokeless is shot through a gun that may not be safe?

How is it any different than standing next to anyone who reloads? Are you sure their loads won't blow up the gun?    there is a lot of home gunsmiths in this sport.  I've seen guns done by professional cowboy gunsmiths blow open. If you want a perfectly safe hobby this isn't it. 

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12 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

How is it any different than standing next to anyone who reloads? Are you sure their loads won't blow up the gun?    there is a lot of home gunsmiths in this sport.  I've seen guns done by professional cowboy gunsmiths blow open. If you want a perfectly safe hobby this isn't it. 

I think that's a fair question. 

 

How is it different? 

 

Well for one thing it's different because I know that most of the people I shoot with reload, so that is a known risk that I accept.  On that note I know of one local shooter who has blown up several guns with reloads.   When he shoots the rest of the Burt Clan and I stand way back.  We're aware of the risk and act to protect ourselves.  Unless a participant is told in advance about what Oddnews is considering they don't know the risk that they may be exposed to.

 

My other response has two parts, one I never said that I wanted a perfectly safe hobby, but I do want one that is reasonably safe.  I don't believe that reloads are widely believed to be unsafe, but I do believe that shooting smokeless through older Damascus barreled shotguns is widely thought to be unsafe, so it's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

My final thought is that given widely held current beliefs about the safety of doing what he's considering he's opening himself up to a lot of liability if something does go wrong.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think that's a fair question. 

 

How is it different? 

 

Well for one thing it's different because I know that most of the people I shoot with reload, so that is a known risk that I accept.  On that note I know of one local shooter who has blown up several guns with reloads.   When he shoots the rest of the Burt Clan and I stand way back.  We're aware of the risk and act to protect ourselves.  Unless a participant is told in advance about what Oddnews is considering they don't know the risk that they may be exposed to.

 

My other response has two parts, one I never said that I wanted a perfectly safe hobby, but I do want one that is reasonably safe.  I don't believe that reloads are widely believed to be unsafe, but I do believe that shooting smokeless through older Damascus barreled shotguns is widely thought to be unsafe, so it's an apples to oranges comparison.

 

My final thought is that given widely held current beliefs about the safety of doing what he's considering he's opening himself up to a lot of liability if something does go wrong.

 

 

While I agree with you in theory, in practical application I have yet to see a Damascus barrel blow. I have seen or heard of personally no less than six guns blown apart by bad reloads. No in all fairness, I’ve never heard of anyone shooting a Damascus barrel with smokeless powder so that’s a separate variable all together. 

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7 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

While I agree with you in theory, in practical application I have yet to see a Damascus barrel blow. I have seen or heard of personally no less than six guns blown apart by bad reloads. No in all fairness, I’ve never heard of anyone shooting a Damascus barrel with smokeless powder so that’s a separate variable all together. 

I have seen one let go, on a trap range many yrs ago.

It does/will happen.

OLG

 

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I have seen one let go, on a trap range many yrs ago.

It does/will happen.

OLG

 

I don't doubt in the least that it can and has happened. But for someone to say that it can happen, but a reloader can't blow up a gun is preposterous when it happens far more often.

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Obviously, I unintentionally opened up a can of worms. I'm a bit stoked over owning a Greener. If it has been nitro-proofed, it would be safe with smokeless ammo of the correct length. If it is not nitro-proofed, I will not shoot it with smokeless ammo -- I'm happy to roll-my-own BP shotshells, and if its changers are 2 3/4 length, I can buy (expensive) BP shotshells from Buffalo Arms Co.

Obviously I would take all normal safety procedures involved with the use of any antique firearm before pursuing ANY of these options. And if anyone here knows of someone who relines damascus barrels for a reasonable fee, I'm interested in knowing who (the one I've located is prohibitively expensive).

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Back on topic, I did the same thing as you. But my Greener is a ten gauge. Here’s mine and my John Wayne stuff38A79C34-364F-474F-9E45-D08BD0FA28A4.thumb.jpeg.2ce31249d177b7fe62fe24974c312022.jpegimage.png.700c10fe17015860516700020e31904e.pngF7A801C6-D76B-46C8-B07D-EB9071C56F2E.thumb.jpeg.e6c4b0b785bd45e2c00cd66ba3f460ad.jpegC73044FE-C528-4718-BCFF-1213BA632214.thumb.jpeg.63f004f34ba25a403e90539e309c68fc.jpeg

1C10AF4C-95A9-46C2-B57E-7F9FD00BE1B1.jpeg

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Get yourself a MEC Sizemaster and make your own shells. Pay for itself in short order especially for the price of BP shells I'm seeing! Wow!

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Bob Day at R&D Custom Barrel Service has done work for me in the past. He does a lot of different work, including raising dents. I don't know about relining, but I do know from my own experience that he is a straight shooter, no B.S. guy. His turn around time is very short too. He threaded my barrels for chokes and had them back to me in a week! It would be worth the UPS charges to have him look at them and propose a course of action.

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