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Trigger Mike

why do children do good and bad at the same time?

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It baffles me that when my children do something great and I want to express pride in them at the same time I find out about something negative or when they do bad and I want to express anger they also do something good so Ii am stuck between discipline and wanting to encourage them.  Just today my 13 year old who just got his own hinting license after completing the safety course gets a 5 point buck with my dad's hunting rifle .  Then we get home and I find out he had a math test today and he says he did fairly well on it.  I check the grade on line and he failed miserably as in not even close.  I had told him that an "A" gets $5 and a failure to do homework and a failure on a test results in him giving me the keys to his ATV and no XBOX  .  He was a mostly "C" student lat quarter and I am trying to motivate him to do better .  It ruined a day of celebration for getting the deer.  drives me batty.

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Welcome to parenthood.  By the time you figure it out, they are grown and gone.  

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Ask him when he has kids of his own . Maybe by then he will know, until then it's a crapshoot.

 

Imis

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Simple-Take his hunting lic away until he improves his grade.

 

OLG

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Have you asked him why he doesn't do better?  Is it in particular courses?  Does he not take tests well?  Would he benefit by having a tutor (presuming you can find one and can afford it)?  Does he find school "boring"? Sometimes kids who are really smart, are so far ahead in their thinking that the "ordinary" subjects seem uninteresting.  Is there a problem with a particular teacher? (Both my grown daughters are teachers, and the younger one...age 46, with over a decade as a middle school teacher in math and science...tutors middle and senior high students, and she knows that some of these teachers couldn't teach a duck how to swim! There have been times when she has had to have discussions with the student's teachers, and in at least once instance had to request a change of teachers for her own 7th grade child!)  Reward or punishment doesn't always provide the motivation for youngsters in school. Sometimes it only adds to their own frustration in not getting better grades.  He sounds like a good kid.  Best of luck!

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School bored me so badly I didn't do well at all. Till college. My dime if I failed. 4.0

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his main problem is he hates school.  until he realizes that he will do better if he puts forth an effort he will not do well.  On things he wants to learn he is brilliant and every teacher he has says so.  When the school asked him to build platforms and a rack for fabric for the Christmas play he did excellent without every being shown how to do it.  When he has to sit down to read his text book he looks like he is heading to the gallows, when he picks up Hobby Farm magazine or a survival book or hunting book he stays up late reading.  it's a matter of priority and feeling he won't use anything they teach him.  Put a rifle in his hand and he looks like he was born with it.  His teachers tell me over and over again how he is a leader and could lead the entire grade not just his class if he put forth the effort.  

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Tell him you'll put him in a military school, if he doesn't start to apply himself.

Get some pamphlets, and show him you are serious.

How are the kids he hangs with doing in school??

He's at the age where he will want to test your resolve---STAND FIRM

BTDT

OLG

 

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Sounds like a great son! Try and show him how it all connects to what he likes. I can relate to him feeling he won't use what they teach him but its not so imo,  math, science, physics all relate to sports especially shooting, building, mechanics. I second what Trailrider said too. Best to you and your family.

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I got nuthin.;)

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He needs to be shown how the classes he is taking can help him successfully improve on some project or idea he does like.  Does he have any idea what he wants to do/be when he grows up?  What subjects does he hate the most? What subject does he like, even a little bit?  He built that set by himself.  For example, he might become anything from a carpenter to an architect.  He needs math to do that.  If he's such a great hunter and woodsman, the military might attract him.  But, being an officer pays better. ;)  And he'd need a college degree.  You just have to get into his head a bit.

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I take him to the feed store sometimes since his dream is to be a farmer and show him how much lime or fertilizer is or how much for cattle feed and seed and ask him math questions based on the amount of seed needed for an acre and how much money that is to show him how much math is needed or other ways to apply what he is learning or showed hm the props he built for the school cost a certain amount in supplies and where angles come in etc.  His main buddy in his class makes "A" s and his dad own 900 acres and grows soybeans and vidalia onions and other crops and raises cows and that if he wants to work for someone like that he has to show he can learn .  I am sure he will come around, it just baffles me that I can watch him solve problems like building things like log cabins from small trees he cuts down complete with fireplace made with scrap tin and pine straw roof but has always struggled with school work.   He made a judges gavel for a teacher for a class project and homemade bow and arrow set and spear and tree houses made from small pine saplings but yet won't study for a test.  blows me away sometimes.  

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To be in business for yourself (or even working for others), he needs to understand things like the laws that will affect him; also the economics, which requires math.  That he won't study for a test may indicate he just doesn't do well taking tests.  What subjects in particular?  If it is all his subjects, again is an indication of fear of tests.  Have you tried to sit down and study with him?  I know, that takes time, and the subject may not be something in which you are familiar.  But it might be worth a try. Good luck!

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I have a 24 year old and a 21 year old. I feel I'm more clueless now than ever. If I get any insights, I'll be sure to let you know.

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14 hours ago, Trigger Mike said:

it just baffles me that I can watch him solve problems like building things like log cabins from small trees he cuts down complete with fireplace made with scrap tin and pine straw roof but has always struggled with school work.  

 

 

Sounds like he needs to be able to see and use the practical applications in order to learn the math.   I was kind of like that in school.  

Give me the practical problem and it's no big deal. Lay out a word problem, "Farmer Smith's second son got on a southbound train in Chicago, Jason, a sophomore from Duluth, is in an airplane over Dallas heading NW at 329.7 knots, how many hours will it take to plant 4 acres of Joshua Trees in December?" and I'm lost.

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Story sounds so familair...

 

Was this young man ever GATE tested...?  :huh:

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Never heard of the GATE or how to do it. As for the home work he often says he did it at school but my wife, myself and his older sister have helped him . Mainly he doesn't want to do it. He says homework is assigned by incompetent teachers who couldn't get the job done during school hours. I corrected him on that so he stopped saying it. Meanwhile he has been building a yard near the chicken pen on his own by driving 6ft tall metal T post and spreading wire fencing around it. He went do school work but did real work.

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I find the best lessons in life are taught when youngsters are handed full responsibility and are consequently held fully accountable. With my kids they generally get a leather strap and punishment to boot ( scrub toilets, clean shop, make them work on some elders yard or what ever, something that has to do with doing something for someone else and taking up their time away from a self indulgent mindset, behaviors and activities) I’ve always found grounding only good at building resentment. It only gives them the opportunity to find other diversions or sit around and mope. Not a good strategy for changing behavior. It only instills a mind set of waiting it out til the return of the status quo.

 

I do incentivize  good grades with cash (but I can afford it) and punish for bad grades and bad effort. YMMV.

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It is funny this came up. This morning, my wife and I discussed some of these things. We both came out of public school systems. We have taken our kids out and mostly home school. Our oldest goes to a very small Christian school. One thing I noticed, looking back, having grown up us a have not, is that the haves generally made good grades and did well; participated and excelled in various activities, while the have not's generally did average or below average. Those in the middle socio-economically could go either way. But in general, most people regardless of background, are, well, just average, and I try my best to just look at all people as simply people, regardless of anything. But I do believe if left on their own  at too young of an age to direct their lives, without any consequences or expectations cemented with accountability, young folk will simply under perform, and their adulthood will be end up lacking.

 

Now I never once felt the haves were more intelligent or gifted than the rest, though results may seem to attest to that. I don't find much of what school requires to do much with intelligence at all, but just doing your work and working hard at it. My kids can be lazy as can be, and when allowed to do, so flounder. But when they work hard, they develop understanding on their subjects and excel. Sure people's ability to reason and understand vary from person to person, but I have found that intense personal focus, not worrying about the next person and strong work ethic enforced through accountability to be great equalizers in academics.  Sure the kids that play in the nicer sand boxes may not have to worry about working or transportation or what have ya. But I'd be willing to bet there are some expectations set forth, and solid consequences to see they are done.  Rich or poor or in between, we all have the same problems, the same weaknesses....look at Steve Bezos ( about to pay for the most expensive piece of a** in history) or every other train wreck celebrity or just the hobo in the rail yard. Somewhere focus, discipline, accountability, personal responsibility or just plain good judgement were lost.

 

But with my kids,  when my kids have failed,  my general view is somewhere it's been due to me lacking in enforcing responsibility and accountability.

 

Hey, I don't claim to be right. Just my opinion, my observations, and what works best for me and my family in our decision making; and I am in NO WAY insinuating that anyone here is doing something wrong or are bad parents. We fight the same battles in my home EVERY DAY over dishes, clothes hampers, clean rooms, not pissing on the toilet seat, you name it....

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Often the Have Nots suffer from a poor diet and lack of proper nutrition.  Greatly effects their physical and mental development.

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On 1/10/2019 at 11:31 PM, Trigger Mike said:

It baffles me that when my children do something great and I want to express pride in them at the same time I find out about something negative or when they do bad and I want to express anger they also do something good so Ii am stuck between discipline and wanting to encourage them.  Just today my 13 year old who just got his own hinting license after completing the safety course gets a 5 point buck with my dad's hunting rifle .  Then we get home and I find out he had a math test today and he says he did fairly well on it.  I check the grade on line and he failed miserably as in not even close.  I had told him that an "A" gets $5 and a failure to do homework and a failure on a test results in him giving me the keys to his ATV and no XBOX  .  He was a mostly "C" student lat quarter and I am trying to motivate him to do better .  It ruined a day of celebration for getting the deer.  drives me batty.

 

Math is logic. He needs to learn, up to you to since the so called teachers are not doing so.

Agree with taking away privileges. 

Math and logic only seem difficult because we are told so. Brilliant and easy.

Lying is troubling.

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1 hour ago, Whiskey Business said:

Lying is troubling

 

He may have thought he did well.  I know that a few times I thought I had aced a test I had done anything but.  

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He knows we go online to check so I doubt he lied when he said he thought he did well.  He has done better than he thought once or twice 

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14 hours ago, Trigger Mike said:

Never heard of the GATE or how to do it. As for the home work he often says he did it at school but my wife, myself and his older sister have helped him . Mainly he doesn't want to do it. He says homework is assigned by incompetent teachers who couldn't get the job done during school hours. I corrected him on that so he stopped saying it. Meanwhile he has been building a yard near the chicken pen on his own by driving 6ft tall metal T post and spreading wire fencing around it. He went do school work but did real work.

 

GATE is an acronym for "Gifted And Talented Education,"  overall, a poorly understood concept.  Even poorly understood by many educators.

 

A bunch of years ago I was on our school district's GATE Advisory Committee, and a member of the California Association for the Gifted.  Mind you, I was neither gifted nor talented!  Our purpose was to identify ways to best serve those kids who were, as the standard public education system pretty much failed them.

 

Often, youngsters are declared to be GATE kids because they're "Smart."  Actually, that's kind of backwards; they're "smart" because of the properties that make them "GATE" kids.  As they used to tell us in the workshops, "these kids are wired differently!"  And they surely can be.  We used to think of them as Special Ed kids, but at the other end of the spectrum.  Often with strong math, music, artistic, or mechanical aptitudes; may even be exceptionally good at electronic "gaming." And often with special needs, and risks.  May be easily bored, sometimes over-demanding, can have a higher than normal risk of failure, commonly have behavioral issues, may even be under-achievers despite enhanced abilities.  And they may even be at a higher risk of suicide.  Shoved into a classroom environment with rigid study tracks geared to the masses and even the more challenged students, it's no wonder they have "issues."

 

So, traits like those can be triggers toward identifying these kids at an early age, hopefully followed up with a formal assessment, such as the "Structure of the Intellect" or other appropriate tests.  Teachers and administrators should be able to meet the special needs of these students by developing study plans in alignment with their needs and abilities.  All to frequently, though, the kids are "rewarded" with higher demands like more homework, harder assignments, even stricter discipline.  Wholly inappropriate;  usually with undesirable outcomes.  

 

In an oversimplified nutshell, that's GATE.  

 

 

 

 

 

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I can relate to this kid.  School was boring and the teachers didn't give a hoot.  Schools are focused on the top 10% and the bottom 20%.  The rest are left to their own devices.  I struggled with Geometry.  Algebra was miserable but when I got to 3rd year math (pre-calculus?) I did pretty well.  Statistics in college, the professor gave me just enough of a passing grade so I could move on and not darken his door again. He was poor instructor and I hated that class.

 

Once I made the connection between math and its application, then things started to click.  Once I got the click, I could move right along.  Circles, triangles, quadrahedrons,  area, circumference, volume, percentages, mark ups, mark downs.  It took a while.  I developed a fear of numbers.  One reason I didn't go into engineering.  Now I have people and calculators that do that for me.

 

My father threatened me with military school because I lacked motivation.  That only made me less interested.  I'm not a type A personality, like the rest of my siblings and he likes that.  I never had a warm and fuzzy relationship with him.   He sounds like a good kid.  Make sure he knows that you believe in him and that he has great value.  He will figure it out.

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TM-You are his Dad(AKA, HMFIC), first and foremost. You set the rules-Not the kid.

Your son will be tasked many times throughout his life with what he doesn't want to do.

Tell him that an adult will do the best he can with the task assigned, and not sluff it off.

He may well need summer school.....

Good luck,

OLG

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I sat with him tonight and helped him get started and once I did he finished fairly well. I showed him why he needed to know about interest rates etc. He just needs a shove in the right direction maybe 

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