Shopping for '97...educate me please!

[Duncan Disorderly]

I've heard if you have a 97, you need 3..one to shoot, one for backup and one in the shop.

SO, what is the deal? What should I be looking for? What are the common issues? Are parts available?

A local SASS shooter has 2 for sale (he and the wife have moved to doubles)..both are takedown, one has a short barrel the other is long, same price.

Is a takedown better/not better than a non-take down?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Takedowns are more plentiful.

 

Avoid 3-screw forearms.

 

Don't need 3...that's just a joke. Parts are plentiful...there are a couple parts you want to have spares for. Ejector spring, left hand extractor (get them from Cowboys and Indian store cuz they are the best).

 

97's are a bunch of fun to shoot!!

 

Phantom

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Call this guy-

Ask about the CB-97.

http://classicoldwestarms.com/preowned.html

 

Good man to deal with.

OLG

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Yo-De-O;  Duncan Disorderly  97's are great.

 

Sent you an E-mail  to your club address.

 

JRJ

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

My first main match shotgun was a 97 with a  20" barrel.   It's a real Winchester made in the 1920s   Never had any work done to it, and have never had any problems.  It's in pretty decent shape.

 

My current main match shotgun is a 97 with a 30" barrel.    1900's vintage.   It was, to be honest, a little sloppy when I got it, but I really wanted one with a long barrel, and this is what I was found.   I have had some minor work done to it, but nothing super drastic or expensive.   It's not as "tight" as the 20" but it's still in safe shooting order, and since I had it fixed, it's never given me any problems.

 

Both are takedowns.

 

I have a coupla reproductions that are solid frames, as well as a real Winchester 93.   When all is said and done, I like the takedown better, it's easier to clean!

 

Good luck!

[Yul Lose]

 I have 13, 16 gauge take down 1897’s and all but one run pretty good. My main match 97 was made in 1946 I believe and has been performing flawlessly for seven years. The others I’ve picked up from pards who gave up on 97’s or 16 gauge or ones that I’ve found at the LGS gathering dust and cobwebs. I found one recently that I paid $125.00 for and it’s a pretty nice gun. TL and Jim Bowie have slicked a few of them up. Last January at the Yuma Territorial Prison Break match a retired gunsmith sold me a whole bunch of 16 gauge 97 parts and another pard who moved away gave me a 5 gallon bucket of 97 parts, forearms, slides, bolts, receivers, magazines, etc... Now if they’d just let me use them for WB matches.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

I have been shooting a solid frame, made in 1898, for 18 years. I prefer it to my take down ones but that is a personal preference. My only gripe with the solid frame I have is, as Phantom has mentioned, is the 3 screw forearm. At some point the screws do not stay in. I used tape, lock-tite and finally had the threads enlarged and used bigger screws. The metal in the tube only leaves room for a couple of threads and that is not enough.

 

On the take down models, you need to keep an eye on the take down pin at the end of the magazine tube. They can work their way loose.

 

As with any firearm, slop in the action is a red flag. If you are not sure, let someone check it out.  

 

I did buy a take down model and when I tried to use it for Wild Bunch the shells would not fit in the magazine tube. It turned out that the tube had been replaced with a 16 gauge tube. There is a welded sleeve that I removed but it was a lot of work. The tube is the same for 16 and 12 gauge but on the 16, the put a sleeve at the mouth of the tube so a 12 gauge shell will not fit. 

 

Buying local, especially if you can get a chance to try it out, is usually your safest bet.

[Yul Lose]

30 minutes ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

I have been shooting a solid frame, made in 1898, for 18 years. I prefer it to my take down ones but that is a personal preference. My only gripe with the solid frame I have is, as Phantom has mentioned, is the 3 screw forearm. At some point the screws do not stay in. I used tape, lock-tite and finally had the threads enlarged and used bigger screws. The metal in the tube only leaves room for a couple of threads and that is not enough.

 

On the take down models, you need to keep an eye on the take down pin at the end of the magazine tube. They can work their way loose.

 

As with any firearm, slop in the action is a red flag. If you are not sure, let someone check it out.  

 

I did buy a take down model and when I tried to use it for Wild Bunch the shells would not fit in the magazine tube. It turned out that the tube had been replaced with a 16 gauge tube. There is a welded sleeve that I removed but it was a lot of work. The tube is the same for 16 and 12 gauge but on the 16, the put a sleeve at the mouth of the tube so a 12 gauge shell will not fit. 

 

Buying local, especially if you can get a chance to try it out, is usually your safest bet.

On the pin on the magazine tube that sometime works out, I solved that by placing a piece of heat shrink tubing over it and shrinking it. Problem solved.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Skip the 97.  Shoot a Double  

[Volga Vigilante]

We went the other way,  for a while we had 3 people shooting a single 97.  We have since upgraded and now the boys shoot the first and I shoot the second, with out a cut stock.  We have done left extractor and ejector on one.  Tons of fun.

[Duncan Disorderly]

3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Skip the 97.  Shoot a Double  

have a hammered double...too slow.

Figure if I'm gonna get a new gun, get something different, something I might shoot WB in the future maybe.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:26 PM, Duncan Disorderly said:

have a hammered double...too slow.

Figure if I'm gonna get a new gun, get something different, something I might shoot WB in the future maybe.

You will need to make a minor modification so the 97 will hold 6 rounds. And, the 97 is not the only pump gun that is legal for Wild Bunch. But, it is the only one you can use for both Cowboy and Wild Bunch.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Dunkin Disorderly have you received e-mail I sent you?

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Been through more 97's than I can count both originals and Norinco/IAC including the latest generation of the IAC. Tons of 97's in the game that don't run quite right causes ranging from worn parts to over smithing. I finally decided to get my wallet out and buy a 1954 takedown in 95% condition. I tuned the mainspring myself, installed a new German made ejector spring and went to town. Could not be happier with it. I don't even take a second look at Chinese 97's nor a slapped out original and I learned my lesson over the last 17 years of CAS. Mileage will vary depending on shooting style, skill set and use and abuse on the gun. 

[Null N. Void]

17 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Been through more 97's than I can count both originals and Norinco/IAC including the latest generation of the IAC. Tons of 97's in the game that don't run quite right causes ranging from worn parts to over smithing. I finally decided to get my wallet out and buy a 1954 takedown in 95% condition. I tuned the mainspring myself, installed a new German made ejector spring and went to town. Could not be happier with it. I don't even take a second look at Chinese 97's nor a slapped out original and I learned my lesson over the last 17 years of CAS. Mileage will vary depending on shooting style, skill set and use and abuse on the gun. 

 

Deuce,

 

How much did the German ejector spring help?  Where did you get it?

 

Thanks,

 

NNV

[Duncan Disorderly]

1 hour ago, Jackrabbit Joe #414 said:

Dunkin Disorderly have you received e-mail I sent you?

i don't get club emails. no idea where it goes

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Ok send me yours by message.

 

JRJ

[Griff]

On 8/5/2018 at 1:10 PM, Duncan Disorderly said:

A local SASS shooter has 2 for sale (he and the wife have moved to doubles)..both are takedown, one has a short barrel the other is long, same price.

There's probably a good reason for that.

On 8/5/2018 at 1:32 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Don't need 3...that's just a joke. Parts are plentiful...there are a couple parts you want to have spares for. Ejector spring, left hand extractor (get them from Cowboys and Indian store cuz they are the best).

With all due respect to my friend and forum pal, Phantom.  It's not a joke.  I never bothered to buy one until I was forced into it to shoot Wild Bunch.  I initially bought a TTN riot gun copy, then an original as a back up gun.  This original has not worked right since day one.  Been to at least 3 gunsmiths, and will quit feeding right in the worst possible time.  During any timed event.  Works ok when checking it out... but... has failed to feed any 12 gauge ammo from magazine to chamber.  (And, yes... it's a 12 gauge gun)!  The 3rd, (#2 original), is my back up gun.  Luckily I haven't needed it yet.

 

And a '97 is ONLY fun when used in Wild Bunch!  

On 8/5/2018 at 6:47 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Skip the 97.  Shoot a Double  

  Far, far, far less trouble.  I started this game in 1985, joined SASS when it formed in 1987... have shot almost continuously since.  Sometimes work interferes.    A common complaint.  I started with a 1919 Riverside Arms double... (think Stevens 311).  Then, sometime in 1986. I purchased a Stoger Coach gun.  Hammerless.   The difference between a '97 & a double is night and day.  The hammerless gun you can shoot all day and simply dream of it at nite.  The hammer gun you can shoot it all day a few less times, but still dream pleasant dreams all nite also.  The '97 can be shot almost all day and will simply give you nightmares!

A double, that opens fully and is properly prepped, (simply a matter of polishing the chambers and removing any burrs from the extractors), will run rings around most of the fastest cowboys runnin' a '97.   It's really a matter of technique.  Very early in my cowboy shooting, I was given some tips by a several time fastest shotgun shooter by the alias of Midway.  His student, Montana Dan, could regularly beat me, but not always.  And few folks runnin' a '97 could keep up, & while I've had a few folks that claim that changed as '97 shooters went to holding their followup rounds in their hand, 3 & even 4 rounds... that's not the norm.  The key to smooth and fast shotgunning is to keep the buttstock against your shoulder the entire time it's being shot.  This is true for the double as well as the '97.  As you break the double, simply pull the wrist of the gun up, and let the shells fall out, while reaching for the next pair and bring them up to the gun, slap the barrels up into lock as you lower the wrist and you should be sighted right on your next shotgun targets.   

 

I will stipulate that for some folks the '97 is easier to handle... I happen to believe that they are a rare bird.  I seen far more folk fumbling shells trying to master the '97 than with a double.  It's damned near impossible to load a double with the shell backwards... (I say nearly impossible, as sure as stuff, someone will prove me wrong)!  But, it not anywhere near impossible with a '97, as I've seen it happen all too often.  

 

If you've already develope some muscle memory for a hammered double, it'll be a far easier transition to a hammerless double.  I'd say it's likely to be painless.  I've recently acquired a pair of hammered TTN clones of the 1878 and shoot them quite regularly, probably near 50% of the matches I get to attend.  And found them to be quite easy to become somewhat proficient with... as long as I remember to cock the hammers as I break the gun to begin the reload, instead of waiting till I've pulled the trigger and had nothing happen!

 

But, it's yer money, you pays it and takes your chances.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

10 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

You will need to make a minor modification so the 97 will hold 6 rounds.

 

Which is quite annoying....

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

30 minutes ago, Griff said:

 

With all due respect to my friend and forum pal, Phantom.  It's not a joke.  I never bothered to buy one until I was forced into it to shoot Wild Bunch.  I initially bought a TTN riot gun copy, then an original as a back up gun.  This original has not worked right since day one.  Been to at least 3 gunsmiths, and will quit feeding right in the worst possible time.  During any timed event.  Works ok when checking it out... but... has failed to feed any 12 gauge ammo from magazine to chamber.  (And, yes... it's a 12 gauge gun)!  The 3rd, (#2 original), is my back up gun.  Luckily I haven't needed it yet.

 

 

Sounds like you bought a piece of crap 97...it didn't break on ya...it was broken when ya bought it!!!

 

Chinese junk is just that...buy Winchesters!!!!

 

Phantom (who still loves shooting the 97's...even though I can't in FC)

 

 

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Sounds like you bought a piece of crap 97...it didn't break on ya...it was broken when ya bought it!!!

Chinese junk is just that...buy Winchesters!!!!

Phantom (who still loves shooting the 97's...even though I can't in FC)

Actually... the chinese "junk" has worked flawlessly since new (5 years), in Wild Bunch.  and that 1st original I bought is as smooth as warm butter... as long as you feed it from the "outside"... as one does in cowboy... 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

The key to smooth and fast shotgunning is to keep the buttstock against your shoulder the entire time it's being shot.  This is true for the double as well as the '97.  As you break the double, simply pull the wrist of the gun up, and let the shells fall out, while reaching for the next pair and bring them up to the gun, slap the barrels up into lock as you lower the wrist and you should be sighted right on your next shotgun targets.   

 

 

 

Not to hi jack the thread but when shooting a SxS for maximum speed you will never get there keeping the stock in your shoulder, you actually restrict yourself by not being able to manipulate the gun. Short compact movements are where it's at for SxS shooting, but getting the gun broke open as quickly as possible and aggressively shucked is the name of the game. You might be able to achieve moderate speed keeping it up, but not as good as it could be. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If you're determined to shoot a 97, you'll need to learn the 97 shake.  That's what you need to do when the spent shell falls off the bolt and gets stuck in the action, or when you put the shell in backwards or an errant 38 special case takes an unlucky bounce and falls into the chamber.   I see it used at every match. 

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

My TTN hammered double is my main match gun. But that said I do have fun shooting my original Winchester 97. In fact it does have a 3 screw forehand which I just replaced. Those screws don't really have that much threading on them. It is a rare occasion that I shoot smokeless so when I do that's a good reason to shoot the 97. It is fun to shoot and still not consistent on loading from the side or over the top. Seems I start out one way and then switch to the other. But my preference is with the double and my wife's preference as well.

 

 

Hochbauer

[Palo Verde, SASS # 56522]

13 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

If you're determined to shoot a 97, you'll need to learn the 97 shake.  That's what you need to do when the spent shell falls off the bolt and gets stuck in the action, or when you put the shell in backwards or an errant 38 special case takes an unlucky bounce and falls into the chamber.   I see it used at every match. 

 

 

Well, sir, it sounds like the people at your local matches need to invest in some 97 left extractors, ejector springs and possibly right extractor plunger/spring. These are parts that should be replace as a part of regular maintenance and certainly when the thing does not eject well. The Smith Shop sells what you need   but it is best to take it to a Smith that knows how to fit these parts.

 

The OP asked how to select a "good" 97. This is difficult to answer without being able to demonstrate the parts to look at. Many of these old guns have been worn out a time or two and are simply not worth the effort. The most general way I can advise you is look for original blue in good condition -- it likely is not worn out inside but may still need an ejector spring or some such. 

 

The myth of "you need three 97s" was started a long time ago by someone that had POS 97s. A Winchester 97 actually has less parts than an SKB but there are many 97s that are older and more worn out than any SKB. Therefore, there are many POS 97s in the world. Good luck in your search. 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Duncan Disorderly there you go pilgrim The above entry by Palo Verde is true words spoken and he knows 97's. Look up Palo Verde Gun Works and take it from there.  Good luck on your hunting.

 

JRJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Good advice above from MANY knowledgeable pards with years of experience.

 

I like the '97 so I use one.   I don't dislike any of the other type SG's, its just the '97 is the way I prefer to play the game.

 

I'm in the "get 3 of them" camp.

1   for dry fire practice

1   for live fire practices 

AND...  1 for SASS matches.    If you don't dry fire or live fire practice, then you could possibly be happy with just 1 that is in good working order, and just keep

some spare parts as mentioned by Palo above.

 

As others have mentioned, you can get a worn out '97 or one in good condition.

Some prefer the 'W' brand.   I like them, but I use an IAC brand.

 

I don't know a lot about the Winchester serial number stuff to recommend anything.

But from my personal experiences with the IAC, some of the 04 series are really good.   I own 2 of them which have seen SASS combat for many years 

and still serve me faithfully.

The 06 series up thru the 09 series seem to be well made also, based on comments from folks who use them and from my experiences.

 

The latest IAC series is the CB models.  The CB stands for 'Cowboy' and are as nice or better than any of the other IAC models I have seen, especially if the serial number is 450 or lower.     I must also say that Outlaw Gambler does some nice custom work on some '97's, of which I have shot and they are

nice..... really nice.

 

Good luck with your search and choice.  

Happy trails.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Howdy Kirk James how goes it? The cowboy who needs educated on the 97's started a cowboy club back home near my old home town in Pennsylvania and real close by where he is from and the Club is in another City also close by.

 

I kinda like take a little interest due to being from back there and if ever get back there would be nice to be able to shoot with the Beaver Valley Bushwhackers. He's the cowboy that started & runs it.

 

See you Kirk James on the Range some where in time.

 

Jackrabbit Joe