Staining a stock question *UPDATE*

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Please see post near end of second page of this thread.

 

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I have an 1950's era M1 Garand that needs its walnut stock refinished. Somewhere in its life an owner did a lousy refinishing job, so I'm not worried about affecting its value. I just want it to look good and be reasonably period correct.

 

There's a lot info out there -- and as many opinions – on how to go about doing this. Kinda like reading a thread on the Wire about rank points. A CMP site was pretty entertaining!

 

There are basically three kinds of stain: water base (Birchwood Casey), oil/spirit base (Minwax) and alcohol base like one I found at Dixie Gun Works.  What was never really explained is how or if the differences in these stains affects the final result. I'm planning to use boiled linseed oil or pure tung oil for the final finish, which were used by Springfield Armory during the rifle's long production run.

 

I'm leaning toward Minwax stain because I already have lots of it in my shop and can mix the exact color I want. But with the above final finishes in mind, does the type of stain make a difference?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'm traditional and like the Minwax stains.  Minwax now has a pre-stain conditioner that helps make the grain pop and not be blotchy.  I'm about to try it on a birch Mossberg 22 stock.  I've seen the water base stains not be able to penetrate gunstock hard woods (mostly walnut) real well. 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Pure tung oil is a good choice. 

Linseed oil fell out of favor once it was discovered that it will eventually encourage rot in the stock.  From what I remember, linseed allows microbes to grown inside the wood that will eventually destroy it - but it will take decades from what i remember.   So they no longer recommend it as highly for saving antiques.

http://refinishingfurniture.net/tung-oil-vs-linseed-oil/

 

And not the comment about mold for linseed oil:

https://www.realmilkpaint.com/blog/tips/tung-oil-vs-linseed-oil/

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Regardless of the stain you choose ... DO NOT sand the stock past 150 or 220 Grit.  Finer grits will pack the wood pores with sanding dust and make the stain fail to penetrate deeply into the wood.  DO NOT use steel wool between coats.  Steel Wool will leave fine metallic particles in the wood that will absorb moisture and give you rust blotches.  Do use 600 grit or 800 grit between coats of your final finish.  Be very careful of Tung Oil.  Tung Oil may never completely cure. 

[Cat Brules]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Regardless of the stain you choose ... DO NOT sand the stock past 150 or 220 Grit.  Finer grits will pack the wood pores with sanding dust and make the stain fail to penetrate deeply into the wood.  DO NOT use steel wool between coats.  Steel Wool will leave fine metallic particles in the wood that will absorb moisture and give you rust blotches.  Do use 600 grit or 800 grit between coats of your final finish.  Be very careful of Tung Oil.  Tung Oil may never completely cure. 

 

Good advice, above.  I use oil by wiping it on "dry," using a synthetic, low-absorbent cloth that leaves little behind.  Then rub that in and wipe well and allow to dry.  Don't over-oil the stock.

 

Look in the Brownells catalog for spirit stains, specific to military stocks.  I was pleased with the result of using a stain from there.

[J-BAR #18287]

I've followed Longshot Logan's instructions on several stocks with good results; strip with Citrustrip, Minwax stain, then tung oil finish.  Simple enough that even I could do it!  

[Pat Riot]

All good info above.

 

I do have a warning for you. I recently stained a stock for a Steven's shotgun. The wood appeared to be Birch. The stock was unfinished when I bought this stock. It was a Boyd's stock and it was obviously a "second". By the way, I was told that Boyd's doesn't sell "seconds" so I think this character had done some dumpster diving. 

Anyway, when I sanded I had to take the stock down quite a bit in the rear and smooth the edges at the bottom of the "grip" area. When I stained it with Minwax "Natural" stain the areas on the stock that had "end grain' or obvious areas where limbs or shoots were in the tree before it was cut up were much darker than the areas that were not end grain. The bottom of the grip and a couple spots along the side of the stock became much darker making the stock look mottled. I really don't care on this stock because it's for an old ugly gun anyway but it is something to keep in mind.

 

When you stain the stock wipe the end grain areas off much more quickly than the sides of the stock if you are letting the stain stay on the stock so that it soaks in.

 

My recommendations:

ZIp Strip Stripper - that eco friendly crap is crap.

Minwax Stain - water based crap is crap

Tung Oil Finish - if you aren't looking for gloss.

 

Remember, Tung Oil is basically really thin varnish that soaks in. If you don't like the stain job but want to get the gun back in action and plan to restain at a later date ONLY do one coat of Tung Oil and wipe it off quickly...or don't use anything for now.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Tung oil is not a varnish.   It's a drying oil.  It's much slower drying than varnishes and has to oxidize (like linseed oil does) in the air to set up.  A varnish is made from heat-and-resin (like polyurethane) modification to a drying oil base.    Tung oil is not a varnish just like beaten eggs are not an omelette.     Varnishes get much harder much faster than tung and linseed oils.  The boiling of linseed oil makes it much faster to dry.  Adding resins to get to a varnish gives even a harder and faster to dry finish.

 

Tung oil can get to gloss with a bunch of work, and linseed can get to gloss as well, but both are better suited for the "satin" oil finish that is standard in the gun business.  Both of these drying oils are easier to repair and more able to take minor dings without cracking than varnishes, however.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Thanks for the replies. Thinking I'll go with Minwax stain and avoid the boiled linseed for final finish.

 

The thing about tung oil, is there's pure tung oil, and tung oil finishes. Some say the TO finish products like Minwax and Formby's are more varnish-like and not really an oil. Are the TO finishes more prone to scratches like varnish?

 

My goal is a satin finish where the grain can be seen and maybe even felt, as well as something that will protect agains moisture and humidity. I'm trying to avoid that look of Uberti stocks and grips

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

The first thing you will want to do is remove as much of the old oils that have soaked into the wood. Brownells sell a Calcium Carbonate based product called 

OLD FASHIONED WHITING

You mix it to make a paste. I use MEK or lacquer thinner. Apply some heat by way of a hair drier helps too.

Once that is done you will want to raise any dents. I use a wet shop towel ( folded for two layers) over the dent then apply a hot iron. I have an old file that works well for this. Heat it to a low cherry red. 

Once this is all dry you are now ready for stain. I have found that Minwax doesn't penetrate all that well. Brownells does sell a 

MILITARY STOCK STAIN

 that does penetrate old stocks. But, you are limited to one color.

I use Fiebing's Leather Dye It comes in a multitude of colors and it penetrates really well. I like Tru-oil too. It's basically tung oil but with an accelerator 

[John Boy]

Linseed oil ...

Quote

Can encourage growth of molds

Not so sure this is fact ... About 1965, to a Remington Model 12 - applied burnt umber to deepen the color of the walnut, then applied 12 coats of hand rubbed linseed oil after rubbing with rotten stone.  Honestly, the wood looks like glass and has never developed any mold

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Pa Tre Ot,

 

Birch is notoriously hard to stain.  It Blotches for no good reason.  Birch has to be sealed before staining and will still blotch to an extent.  Think of Burch as a clown suit for your gun.

 

Have I ever mentioned I absolutely HATE "Auto Correct??"

[Pat Riot]

5 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Tung oil is not a varnish.

You are correct. I guess what I should have said is the Tung Oils that you usually find in most hardware stores - is basically thin varnish.

Minwax and Formsby's are not "Tung Oil". They are more like thin varnish.

[Yusta B.]

I did my M1 NM with Minwax stain & about 6 coats of Linspeed. Sanding & tackrag in between coats. Bit of work but beautiful finish.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, the commercial "tung oil finish" is largely varnish with a little real tung oil added, and some paint thinner. 

 

I've used a 1:1:1 boiled linseed - polyurethane varnish - thinner mix for years where I want something a little harder and faster drying than Linspeed.  Makes a good finish for gun carts that see lots of sun and weather.   Holds up for a long time.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Pat Riot]

On 8/11/2017 at 8:32 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Yep, the commercial "tung oil finish" is largely varnish with a little real tung oil added, and some paint thinner. 

 

I've used a 1:1:1 boiled linseed - polyurethane varnish - thinner mix for years where I want something a little harder and faster drying than Linspeed.  Make a good finish for gun carts that see lots of sun and weather.   Holds up for a long time.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

That's a good solution to know GJ Thank you.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Almost all stock makers have a different formula that they prefer.

Staining wood is not one of my favorite thing to do. I like to let the wood speak for itself without being coaxed into looking different. Patching and matching a stock is a different conversation.

 

Minwax makes a decent stain called "Gun Stock".  It results in a pleasant warm color without being ridiculous.

 

For new wood, especially if the stock is to be used in inclement weather, I like to treat the wood with a 50/50 mixture of marine spar varnish and thinner until the wood will absorb no more. I set the stock aside and allow to dry completely (several days to 2-3 weeks depending on weather). This is a sealer not a finish.

 

For an off the shelf finish it is difficult to beat Casey's Truoil finish.  (I prefer to thin it prior to use) 15 to 20 coats will give an enduring warm finish. Steel wool between each coat and rub down after each coat is dry.

 

For a higher gloss finish, you can use a 1/3- 1/3- 1/3 mixture of boiled linseed oil, Shellac, and denatured alcohol. This finish will give a  deep glossy finish to any piece of wood and can be easily touched up if damaged in use. This finish will slightly yellow light colored woods such as maple as most oil finishes will do. This finish dries rapidly and coats can be applied within an hour of each other. If glossy is not desired, treat the last coat with a good grade of rotten stone to taste.

 

Open pour woods such as american walnut, paduck, and oak should have a cellulose based sanding sealer applied to fill the pours between the sealer and the finish. This can be obtained at most good woodworking supply houses. These sealers can take from a day to several days to dry.

 

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Howdy Ace, the M1 has a three-part stock. While the main stock is original to the rifle, the hand guards are not and are a slightly different color. I want to even that out.

 

What do you use to thin True-Oil? Turpentine? Denatured alcohol?

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Lots to think about. Thanks very much for everyone's input.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Truoil is mostly boiled linseed oil. Thin with denatured alcohol.

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

On 8/11/2017 at 2:42 PM, John Boy said:

Linseed oil ...

Not so sure this is fact ... About 1965, to a Remington Model 12 - applied burnt umber to deepen the color of the walnut, then applied 12 coats of hand rubbed linseed oil after rubbing with rotten stone.  Honestly, the wood looks like glass and has never developed any mold

 

This was discovered by antique restorers.  They looked a wood that had been done by linseed oil and had surprisingly deteriorated.  Now it took 50 years or more, so we may not need to worry too much, but . . . 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Then again, what about a large number of items of colonial period furniture that have seen nothing but linseed oil for about 250 years now, and still is in great shape?  As well as colonial firearms that can be found in museums in fine shape?  Seems like we would have heard volumes about this if it was simply the linseed oil finish that was the culprit.....

 

Sounds like there was something else in combination with linseed oil that is the root cause.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Ron "Ironhead" Smith]

Kind of depends exactly how you want it to look. New Walnut or the reddish look US military rifles got after years of finish oxidation and USGI cleaning solvents. The Process is the same except the use of dye and the dye color.

Strip, I prefer Citrustrip and it works as advertised. I do a final scrub with gray scotchbrite and denatured alcohol.

Steam out dents. Wipe with a very damp cloth and let dry to raise the grain.

Sand lightly with 220 then 320. Blow dust off with 50 PSI or so air then tack rag.

Pick 100% tung oil or BLO, apply a little to a test spot inside the handguard or where the trigger guard plate sits. I'd use just a drop on a q-tip. The color it is after 5 minutes is the color the stock will look when done, if it's too light now is the time to decide color. Remove the oil spot before it dries by wiping with acetone or lacquer thinner if you are going to use dye.

Trans Tint dyes work with water or alcohol, I prefer denatured alcohol for stock work. The two best colors are "Brown Mahogany" for a darker walnut and "Reddish Brown" for the redder look, can be made less red by mixing the two. These are liquid dyes and you add a few drops to the vehicle (water or alcohol), I use 20 drops per pint of vehicle.

If you going to dye you'll need to let it dry a few days before oiling and it will look cartoonish until it's oiled.

Apply oil allowing 24-48 hours dry time. Between coats use gray scotchbrite. I usually use 3-5 coats. Allow final a week or more to cure before reassembly.

Pics in order- Refinished rifles (top to bottom- M1-A stripped dyed with Brown Mahogany tung oil, M-1 cleaned then tung oil, 1903A3 stripped Brown Mahogany tung oil and paste wax, M-1 new stock 2:1 Reddish Brown and Brown Mahogany oil modified varnish), M-1 looking cartoonish after dying, the pistol in my avatar without flash dyed with Reddish Brown (the avatar pic is with flash so it's off a bit).

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

On 8/10/2017 at 10:29 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'm traditional and like the Minwax stains.  Minwax now has a pre-stain conditioner that helps make the grain pop and not be blotchy.  I'm about to try it on a birch Mossberg 22 stock.  

 

 

I have now used that Minwax pre-stain conditioner on the refinish, and BOY did it open up the wood pores in the birch.   I got more stain penetration than I have seen before on most woods, let alone birch.  And it let the Minwax stain really pop the grain figure, even showing up the flame (tiger striping) pretty well.   A pic or two when I get another couple of coats of Linspeed on it.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Red Hooker]

On 8/11/2017 at 0:24 PM, J-BAR #18287 said:

I've followed Longshot Logan's instructions on several stocks with good results; strip with Citrustrip, Minwax stain, then tung oil finish.  Simple enough that even I could do it!  

Bless his memory!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

OK, photos of birch Mossberg 22 stock, citristrip, sand to 220, Minwax pre-stain conditioner, 2 applications of Minwax red mahogany + jacobean (dk brown) stain, 4 coats Linspeed.   The tiger stripe flame certainly brightened up.

 

Not too bad for a "clown suit" huh?

 

[Ben Beam]

I’ve seen beautiful results using a combination of TruOil and Armor-All of all things. There’s detailed instructions here, and if you google it you can find lots of pictures: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=246076

[Eyesa Horg]

Did my Stoeger with the Tru-Oil & Armour-All.  Worked great, but a little too glossy. Buffed it out a little with 0000 wool, but would try rotten stone next time. The Armour -All cures the oil really fast--a couple minutes!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

By the way, Tru-oil is not tung oil based.  It's linseed oil, with some paint thinner.  And a fair amount of resin varnish as well.   Per the MSDS.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Stock update: I got the 3 pieces stripped and stained. As mentioned earlier, the hand guards are a different color walnut from the main stock. I'm happy with the main stock color, but not the hand guards as they are bit lighter and more red. Gonna go back, remove the stain and find/mix another color that will more closely match the main stock. Pics to follow in a week or so.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That Minwax Jacobean stain color that I found at my hardware store recently might be a dark enough (and no red) to make that hand guard match the rest.  Or the Espresso.  Both seem to be a little darker than even their Dark Walnut.  Getting those replacement parts (hand guards are SO easily broken that almost none still exist on military guns unless a new complete stock set was procurred at some time) to match up is a chore.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Reference:

http://www.minwax.com/wood-products/stains-color-guide/

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Thx, Joe. I'm headed to the hardware store shortly. Will give those a try.

[Knarley Bob]

Birch Wood Casey gunstock finish, no stain

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

 

Quote

Birch Wood Casey gunstock finish, no stain

 

Yep, sometimes the walnut is just fine to apply the finish to and be done.    And your handpiece is fiberglass, so no need to match it to the wood.

 

Other times, like the OP is finding, it needs to be darkened and separate pieces need different amounts of color to match well.   Then, you have staining to do.

 

And with birch - no way you get away with no stain at all.

 

  GJ

 

(My taste would have been to darken up that M1A stock a little, but it's your stock and your taste) 

[Knarley Bob]

37 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

 

Yep, sometimes the walnut is just fine to apply the finish to and be done.    And your handpiece is fiberglass, so no need to match it to the wood.

 

Other times, like the OP is finding, it needs to be darkened and separate pieces need different amounts of color to match well.   Then, you have staining to do.

 

And with birch - no way you get away with no stain at all.

 

  GJ

 

(My taste would have been to darken up that M1A stock a little, but it's your stock and your taste) 

You really wouldn't like my Pedersoli sharps then................

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I wanted a darker color than the previous "refinisher" to make it closer to period correct, but not as dark as many M1's I've seen. You can barely see the grain in some of them, so I've backed it off a little.

 

As said earlier today, matching the pieces proved difficult. Instead of stripping as planned, I just sanded them with 220 grit and applied the Jacobean color Joe suggested. Bingo! They now match the stock. Everything is a nice deep walnut color with just a hint of red. Exactly like I wanted.

 

Thanks to Joe for the tip on Jacobean and for the input from all of you. This has been a great thread that's lead me in directions I might not have gone otherwise.

 

Pics to come after the final finish coats are applied.