WTC?

[40Chev]

Last stage of the day, pretty sure I was clean when this occurred, which is why I did what I did.

 

Long gun sequence doesn't matter as they weren't part of the call. FWIW - they were shot correctly with no misses.

 

Revolvers were shot last. Three targets, stage instructions were to "With first pistol put 2 on first target, 2 on second target, l on last target. Repeat with second pistol.

 

Pulled first revolver, either the 3rd or 4th shot failed to ignite the primer, turned to TO and said "I'm pretty sure I'm clean, going to load another round in the pistol and continue." It wasn't a squib, no poof or pop, it just didn't go off, when I got to unloading table that was verified.

 

Did that, finished with first pistol correctly and grounded it. Pulled second pistol and shot it correctly.

 

TO was saying something to the effect of "No, No, don't do that. But, I don't recall hearing him say "Stop, or ground, or hand off the gun."

 

Much discussion ensued, a credentialed and respected member of the posse was quizzed about what call to make and after much discussion, I was given a minor safety by the TO and told I could not do a load into the revolver as I had done.

 

The posse member said I could have loaded one into the second revolver (which would have put 6 in that one and hammer down on a live round, or (and I didn't get this part exactly), I could have unloaded all out of one (not sure if he meant unload the first pistol or the second) and put a round in and finish. To me, loading the sixth in the second pistol violates the only load 5 and hammer down on an empty chamber safety rule. It would also seem to me that I would have gotten a P, because I didn't shoot 5 with the first and five with the second - I would have done four and six.

 

I bring this up because having witnessed this happen a number of times, I questioned several people (one of them was a TG), on whether a pistol reload was allowed and the answer was yes it could be done.

 

It's in the books, got no gripe with it just want to know the right answer for the future.

 

Thanks

[Grizzly Dave]

Several things here, first, my understanding is yes you can reload a pistol for a dud round, just like a rifle with a jacked out round.

 

Second, with pistol strings, the convention is with first five shots do this, with second five shots do that. So unless someone saw a safety issue with the first gun, which pistol got reloaded is not material.

 

Loading on the line, there is no reason to decock so the hammer isn't down on a live round. Even if it already had five in it, ou load one, just pull it to full cock and blast away.

 

I'll now go take a look at the book and make sure my understanding is based on the rules.

[Yusta B.]

Based on just the action of reloading, I would say you were good to go. (As long as the process of doing the reload never had the hammer down on a live round.)

[Goody, SASS #26190]

The only way a penalty would have been called is if you grounded the first pistol with the hammer down on a live round. If you did not cock after firing the last shot it could not have been. I believe, after much discussion, the posse erred in awarding a penalty.

[Yusta B.]

 

 

"The only way a penalty would have been called is if you grounded the first pistol with the hammer down on a live round. If you did not cock after firing the last shot it could not have been. I believe, after much discussion, the posse erred in awarding a penalty."

 

 

 

Wouldn't grounding the pistol & declaring a malfunction negate this.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Wouldn't grounding the pistol & declaring a malfunction negate this.

Yes, but no malfunction was declared. Either way, if you fire a round and don't cock again the hammer cannot be on a live round.

[Sedalia Dave]

No reason you cannot load a round on the clock to make up for a dud. When you fire it, the hammer would be down on the just fired round so no call there.

[Yusta B.]

OK Goody, but then he's gonna get a P MSV for not reholstering.

 

Off by 2 letters

[Goody, SASS #26190]

OK Goody, but then he's gonna get a P for not reholstering.

Must be reholstered at end of the shooting string. I'm going to start calling you T Bone JR if you keep arguing with me.

[40Chev]

Must be reholstered at end of the shooting string. I'm going to start calling you T Bone JR if you keep arguing with me.

But - didn't I negate that by grounding the pistol? (There was a table in front of the targets.)

There was a questionable round in the pistol - although I went around at least twice and it didn't go off, it still had a loaded round in the cylinder.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

But - didn't I negate that by grounding the pistol? (There was a table in front of the targets.)

There was a questionable round in the pistol - although I went around at least twice and it didn't go off, it still had a loaded round in the cylinder.

 

Yes, you're good. I was rebuffing Yusta's argument for the P for not reholstering. As an aside, anytime you feel the need to ground a gun I would get in the habit of hollering "BROKE". This negates any penalties for rounds in chamber, under hammer, not holstered, etc. Sometimes in the heat of things it is hard to remember exactly what condition the the gun is in when leaving your hand.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

SASS Handbook, page 24:

If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be
awarded a single procedural penalty. In this situation, if the shooter elects or is forced to
miss an appropriate target due to unsafe angles or target availability, a round may be reloaded
to avoid a miss penalty (the dreaded “Double Jeopardy” of a procedure and miss). This does
not mean a shooter may reload a rifle or revolver at any other time to make up a miss.
Unfired ejected rifle rounds may be replaced.

 

The discussion clarify that you may also reload a pistol. So I would say not call as long as it is reloaded safely.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

My take is:

 

bad call was given to you.

 

PLUS, when it is obvious that a squib/no fire has occurred on a live round and you mentioned your situation to the TO, it becomes an understanding of the pistol situation in that grounding it at the end of your string should have been without penalty.

 

As a shooter, when we yell 'malfunction, squib, locked up, etc...' we shouldn't have to wait for the TO's acknowledgement for those situations.

 

There are situation where a shooter needs TO acknowledgement but I surely don't think your situation warranted one.

 

I'm eager to see how this pans out.

 

And BECAUSE pistols were shot last, reholstering is not required UNTIL the shooting string is finished, which is ALL 10 rounds.

No penalty there.

 

 

..........Widder

[Yusta B.]

Must be reholstered at end of the shooting string. I'm going to start calling you T Bone JR if you keep arguing with me.

I believe I've been called much worse . Ok, so have you ever seen a shooter have a malfunction with a pistol, ground it, draw the other, finish the string & then pick up the grounded pistol, reholster & walk to the ULT ? Without getting yelled at ?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The MSV would have been for failure to reholster at the end of the revolver shooting string (if no malfunction had been DECLARED).

NO penalty for loading a round to replace one that failed to fire (could have used either revolver)

REF: SHOOTER's CHOICE

 

NO penalty for an unfired round in the revolver that has been replaced...as long as it is not under the hammer (SDQ if it is).

 

Some of y'all need to review the RO1 "Penalty Overview" and/or take a refresher course...including the T/O.

 

JMHO.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

PaleWolf,

 

According to the OP, Pistol were last. Would there be a penalty for laying that 1st pistol down until the 2nd pistol has been fired?

 

I say ... No Call.

 

 

..........Widder

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PaleWolf,

 

According to the OP, Pistol were last. Would there be a penalty for laying that 1st pistol down until the 2nd pistol has been fired?

 

I say ... No Call.

 

 

..........Widder

 

NO...but he would have had to holster BOTH before exiting the stage to the ULT if no malfunction had been declared.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Also...as a side note re: the stage instructions:

"First pistol/second pistol" enforced as a "P" for shooting 4 & 6 is a BS P trap that doesn't apply to all categories.

GF and BW shooters treat that as "first 5 shots/2^nd five shots" as can everyone else.

It's a 10-shot revolver string...as long as TEN revolver rounds were fired and targets were HIT in the correct order, there should be NO PENALTY.

REF: RO2 p.10

 

Example

A squib of the first round in pistol #2...shooter would have the option of either taking five 5-second penalties for "unfired rounds"

OR

empty & reload the first (functional) revolver to complete the shooting string...with NO PENALTY for using the same "first pistol" for the entire string.

[40Chev]

This is what actually happened

I reloaded the first pistol and went around until that round went off and grounded it

Then shot the second pistol per stage directions

Waited for TO to take the grounded pistol to unloading table (that's just from habit as that is the convention where I usually shoot)

It was hot, they were having a lengthy discussion and I picked up the grounded pistol, holstered it and went to the unloading table unaccompanied and cleared all guns.

Apparently, I could have holstered the first pistol after firing the reload because the hammer was down on a fired (empty) chamber?

 

Thanks for all the replies

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

This is what actually happened

I reloaded the first pistol and went around until that round went off and grounded it

As long as you holstered it at the end of the string (stage in this case), there would be NO PENALTY

 

Then shot the second pistol per stage directions

Waited for TO to take the grounded pistol to unloading table (that's just from habit as that is the convention where I usually shoot)

It was hot, they were having a lengthy discussion and I picked up the grounded pistol, holstered it and went to the unloading table unaccompanied and cleared all guns.

Apparently, I could have holstered the first pistol after firing the reload because the hammer was down on a fired (empty) chamber?

YES.

 

Thanks for all the replies

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

First pistol, second pistol, stage instruction is just poor stage writing.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Have em send your clean match award in the mail.

[Prestidigitator]

First pistol, second pistol, stage instruction is just poor stage writing.

 

Just a question, why is that poor stage writing?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

Just a question, why is that poor stage writing?

 

Why write anything into the stage directions that doesn't apply to ALL categories?

...and then try to penalize those who, according to their category regulations, do NOT have to abide by them.

(i.e. GF, FCGF, SGF, & BW)

 

 

See previous references to the RO2 "Gunfighter" section (post #18)

...also Stage Convention #8

SHB p.22 & RO1 p.13

[Anvil Al #59168]

 

Just a question, why is that poor stage writing?

 

 

Have seen that cause a LOT of problems for some Gunfighters.

As many are not really up on all there rules.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

 

Have seen that cause a LOT of problems for some Gunfighters.

As many are not really up on all there rules.

Yeah... And then they blame the stage writers...when that terminology has been used for years...

[Anvil Al #59168]

Yeah... And then they blame the stage writers...when that terminology has been used for years...

 

 

 

We all know that a GFer should think of this as first 5 shots. 2nd 5 shots.

And not 1st pistol 2nd pistol.

BUT.

Not everyone is up on that.

[Hoss]

Stage writing is a hard-learned skill. there is a lot that goes into it. The better stage writers (and I include Phantom in that group) write very clear instructions, usually a bare minimum of questions are asked, and if the shooter carefully listens/reads the instructions, they would find thier questions are answered. Us new-comers to stage writing usually are bombarded with questions that we didn't even think of. But, the only way to learn is to pay attention at larger matches where the writer is usually more expereinced, and then volunteer to write for your monthly matches, then learn from your mistakes. I see a lot of shooters make a stage more complicated than it actually is. I usually listen to the instructions, then try to read them as well. When I write, I try to start and finish with different guns, have at least one right to left stage, one shooters choice on direction, and 1 shooters choice on which gun first. I try to vary the shotguns some, instead of just knock them down in any order. I also like to do a re-load for a bonus shot, and sometimes give a shooter a choice of a close target for a 5 second bonus or a further out target for a 10 second bonus.

 

As far as 1st pistol, 2nd pistol vs 1st 5 shots, 2nd 5 shots, I think either way is OK. GFers ought to know how to adapt to their chosen style of shooting. .

[Most Wanted]

Hoss I appreciate your efforts and I'm sure some will disagree but one of the things we hate most in stage design is , A : shotgun order and B : must be made up in order. But if your crowd likes it then good for you.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

As far as 1st pistol, 2nd pistol vs 1st 5 shots, 2nd 5 shots, I think either way is OK. GFers ought to know how to adapt to their chosen style of shooting. .

 

It's NOT the gunfighters who don't realize the difference. It's the TOs and spotters who try to pin penalties on GFs and BWs when there is no reason to even think about a penalty.

 

Write so that your instructions make sense to everyone. Don't assume a GF is smart enough, or a spotter is smart enough.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hoss]

Hoss I appreciate your efforts and I'm sure some will disagree but one of the things we hate most in stage design is , A : shotgun order and B : must be made up in order. But if your crowd likes it then good for you.

out of 6 stages I usually have an order on 2-3 of them, but makeups are in any order....if that makes sense. And I usually do a shotgun order that more or less follows rifle & pistol instructions like right to left, inside/outside or something like that.

[Hoss]

 

It's NOT the gunfighters who don't realize the difference. It's the TOs and spotters who try to pin penalties on GFs and BWs when there is no reason to even think about a penalty.

 

Write so that your instructions make sense to everyone. Don't assume a GF is smart enough, or a spotter is smart enough.

 

Good luck, GJ

point taken! I'll keep that in mind. As I said, its a learning process.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

have at least one right to left stage, one shooters choice on direction, and 1 shooters choice on which gun first. I try to vary the shotguns some, instead of just knock them down in any order. I also like to do a re-load for a bonus shot, and sometimes give a shooter a choice of a close target for a 5 second bonus or a further out target for a 10 second bonus.

 

As far as 1st pistol, 2nd pistol vs 1st 5 shots, 2nd 5 shots, I think either way is OK. GFers ought to know how to adapt to their chosen style of shooting. .

Howdy Hoss, I too applaude you for stepping up to write stages and willing to learn. IMHO stages at one time got too wordy and way too many "start on the left" "start on the left"............When I write stages I use Stage Covenents to cover the basics like "holster" or "make rifle safe on table 1" or 4+ shotgun, and I cover this in the shooters meeting. Stage Covenents tell us to holster at the end of a shooting string, and to make long guns safe, and shotgun KDs may be made up till down. Most of our shooters like options....so all of my sweeps may start on either end unless there is a reason to force the stage in a particular direction. This a allows left handers duelist ,DD, crossdraw, GF, BW and shooters of every category to shoot the stage in a manner that suits their style and method of transistion.

As MW pointed out, allota folks don't care for shotgun order, especially the Black Powder shooters, but it makes no difference to me as long as they don't have to fall in order. Ist P, 2nd P, 1st5 and 2nd5 can usually be avoided by just stating what the pistol order is......example using OP sweep;

 

"Start table 1 rifle port arms, SG on table 2.......at the beep with rifle shoot two 2-2-1 sweeps. Move to table 2, with shotgun KD the four targets. Move to table 3, with pistols shoot two 2-2-1 sweeps". That's it, that's all my stage instructions would say, and I would ask if there are any questions.

If you want the two sweeps to start from the same end then just specifiy... " with rifle shoot two 2-2-1 sweeps starting from the same end" and you can add an example if needed, but I would still allow the sweep to start on either end (R1,R1-R2,R2-R3--R1,R1-R2,R2-R3) or (R3,R3-R2,R2-R1--R3,R3-R2,R2-R1) Good Luck

 

Regards

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Blackey Cole]

PWB, is it a requirement to empty the pistol before loading the replacement round for the dud? If not I say he was clean per what is written because the way I read it he declared the malfunction before he loaded the extra round. I don't see where if he put it in the empty chamber or knocked one out and loaded makes a difference if he leaves the hammer down after firing that round. That leave the revolver safe to leave a shooters hand since the hammer is down on a spent round.

 

So if he didn't get a clean match or should of got one please tell me my errors.

[Prestidigitator]

First pistol, engage the five targets in a sweep. second pistol repeat. Ive been around this sport for 13 years and ive never seen a gunfighter get a penalty for shooting two sweeps with alternating shots. i guess im not clear on where the question of poor writing comes into play. if you shoot one handed, two handed, or gunfighter, you still shoot two sweeps. its just written like its always been written. i always thought it meant the same thing as first five shots and second five shots. kinda thought that was common sense.