Knife V. Gun

[Shawnee McGrutt]

Do you think a fellow who is highly skilled with a knife, could "outdraw a fellow with a gun? Fair fight, no one has upper hand.

Watching RIFLEMAN, and got a wondering.

What do you think? I think highly likely.

[Sparky Nelson]

Depends on what you mean by "outdraw," but there are circumstances where someone with a knife can beat someone with a gun. Google "Tueller drill" for an example.

[Alpo]

Can I get my knife out before he gets his gun out? Quite possible. Depends on how skilled I am, and how skilled he is.

 

Can I kill him with my knife before he kills me with his gun? Maybe. Too many variables, actually. Unlike with James Coburn in Magnificent Seven, and James Cann in El Dorado, sticking a knife in someone's chest does not kill all that quickly, and unlike a bullet, it does not have a great amount of shock (stopping power).

 

If we were close enough that I could stab him, and put it in at the angle I wanted, and turn and twist the blade to get the heart/lungs/liver, and things like that, then yes, I could probably kill him first.

 

But why, if he has a gun, is he that close to me? That's the neat thing about a gun - you don't have to be close. And if I have to THROW my knife? Ain't no way I can throw a knife 800 feet per second, so even if I'm much faster than he is, he's still got quite a bit of time, relatively, to fire, before my knife hits him. And even if I kill him AFTER he shoots, his bullet is still going to hit me.

 

And that presupposes that I'm going to THROW my only weapon. Pure insanity.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

I don't care if you can outdraw me, can you get you knife into me before I shoot you?

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

I saw a police training video once. It demonstrated how a man trained with a knife could take out a man with a gun within 10 feet.

[Big Sarge]

When I taught use of force, the 21 foot rule was the norm -that being if the bad guy is within 21 feet of you, he is likely to reach you before you draw your weapon. Sparky correctly referenced this as the Tueller Drill. Of course, a lot of variables can come into play but it is still a good rule of thumb that is backed by case law

[G W Wade]

+1 for Big Sarge. only they referenced even if you shot him, he could still get to you! GW

[Sparky Nelson]

When I taught use of force, the 21 foot rule was the norm -that being if the bad guy is within 21 feet of you, he is likely to reach you before you draw your weapon. Sparky correctly referenced this as the Tueller Drill. Of course, a lot of variables can come into play but it is still a good rule of thumb that is backed by case law

 

Sarge, if I understand the Tueller Drill correctly, the scenario is an attacker who has already decided to attack versus a defender who doesn't know what's happening until the attacker charges at him. If that's correct, then the attacker has the advantage of surprise and may already have staged his weapon within reach, or even has it in hand, before starting his run.

 

That's not the same thing as the Sheriff and Badlands Benny facing off in the street, but it's a much more likely self-defense situation today.

[Aunt Jen]

Do you think a fellow who is highly skilled with a knife, could "outdraw a fellow with a gun? Fair fight, no one has upper hand.

Watching RIFLEMAN, and got a wondering.

What do you think? I think highly likely.

Knife throw can be as fast as gun draw.

 

BUT

 

knife speed SLOWER than bullet.

 

Sooooooooo......CINCLUSION

 

gun has edge

Doer skill big factor

Greater distance STRONGLY favors gun

[Sparky Nelson]

Knife throw can be as fast as gun draw.

 

BUT

 

knife speed SLOWER than bullet.

 

Sooooooooo......CINCLUSION

 

gun has edge

Doer skill big factor

Greater distance STRONGLY favors gun

[Boon Doggle]

Here ya go...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KctqZVYgmO4

[Blackcat James SASS# 29509]

Back in the late 70s a fellow by the name Michael Echanis at the Soldier of Fortune Convention would face away from a target while a man facing one and at a beep they would both engaged the target. Echanis would always beat the gunman.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I have conducted many training drills wit officers over the years using the blade vs bullet scenario. Without significant training you are in very serious danger from a knife wielding adversary within 20 feet of you. Often even if you have drawn your pistol.

Throwing a knife is a circus act, not a self defense act.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I have conducted many training drills wit officers over the years using the blade vs bullet scenario. Without significant training you are in very serious danger from a knife wielding adversary within 20 feet of you. Often even if you have drawn your pistol.

Throwing a knife is a circus act, not a self defense act.

I don't dispute that Bob, but I would like to know more. If a man is within twenty feet knife in hand, let's say 15 feet, and I know he's a threat, AND I have my hand on my gun shouldn't I still have the edge? Assuming I'm willing to draw and shoot. I know when I practice starting with hand on gun I can get off my first shot with accuracy in under a second. How fast can someone cover 15 feet from a stand still? Is it about situation awareness?

[Utah Bob #35998]

I don't dispute that Bob, but I would like to know more. If a man is within twenty feet knife in hand, let's say 15 feet, and I know he's a threat, AND I have my hand on my gun shouldn't I still have the edge? Assuming I'm willing to draw and shoot. I know when I practice starting with hand on gun I can get off my first shot with accuracy in under a second. How fast can someone cover 15 feet from a stand still? Is it about situation awareness?

You would certainly think you'd nail him wouldn't you? But time after time I've seen experienced officers fail to get an aimed shot off in time. As for academy trainees. Fuggedaboutit. It's just amazing how quickly that distance can be closed

There are many factors involved in a real world situation where high stress affects your judgement, hearing, vision, muscle memory etc etc. I used to tell officers that if a determined subject had a knife, they were probably going to get cut unless they were very, very focused. Hopefully they could take him out in time.

[Alpo]

Back in the late 70s a fellow by the name Michael Echanis at the Soldier of Fortune Convention would face away from a target while a man facing one and at a beep they would both engaged the target. Echanis would always beat the gunman.

 

He would also lay down and let them drive a jeep over his chest.

 

He weren't normal.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I wonder if the situation is similar to the OODA loop that fighter pilots talk about. You know, observe, orient, decide act. If the bad guy gets inside your loop it throws you off. I would think that if I had time to go through OODA it would boil down having preprogrammed responses and being able to stay cool and execute them.

[Blackcat James SASS# 29509]

Alpo you are right, in order for him to die they blew him up.

[Houston CAS]

Do you think a fellow who is highly skilled with a knife, could "outdraw a fellow with a gun? Fair fight, no one has upper hand.

Watching RIFLEMAN, and got a wondering.

What do you think? I think highly likely.

Just watched The Magnificent Seven so I know the answer.

[Blastmaster]

I don't dispute that Bob, but I would like to know more. If a man is within twenty feet knife in hand, let's say 15 feet, and I know he's a threat, AND I have my hand on my gun shouldn't I still have the edge? Assuming I'm willing to draw and shoot. I know when I practice starting with hand on gun I can get off my first shot with accuracy in under a second. How fast can someone cover 15 feet from a stand still? Is it about situation awareness?

I too am familiar with the 'Tueller Drill'. It is amazing how quickly someone can cross 21 ft.

 

Best thing one can do is try it your self. stand facing down range with pistol in holster, open (not concealed) holster if you wish. hands on/off pistols. Have a friend stand to your side, 21ft (15ft if you wish) away. At signal, have him run at you, trying to just touch your back as he passes by. If he can touch you before you can draw and fire, you have sustained an injury. Even if you get a shot off before he reaches you, his momentum will probably still carry into you.

 

You may want to start with an empty gun first, so you avoid the chance of shooting your leg in the excitement. The click of the gun before the attacker reaches you will service the same demonstration purpose.

 

good luck.

[ShadowCatcher]

When we trained folks on this subject, we invariably shocked them. Finding out that a bad guy could reliably cross 21 feet in 1.5 seconds was bad enough, adding to that the fact that many of them could not draw and fire an aimed shot accurately in that same time span, and then switch to deflecting or defeating a knife weilding individual at contact range really messed up their heads and taught them religeon. Simple things like getting a table or chairs between you and the threat don't seem to occur to you when you're staring at a sharp knife and a bad guy who is intent on carving you up.

 

If I had to chose between a knife and a gun in my opponents hands, I'd rather it was a gun, especially if we're in an elevator! If he has a gun, and I can put disarming techniques, use of cover or distance to work, I stand a good chance against an untrained bad guy. If he's close and I can't evade, the knife will make for a bad encounter! People have done a fairly good job of messing each other up for millenia using sharp stuff . . guns are a new experiment . . .

 

SC

[Tom Bullweed]

How often does someone cross near us in the bank, a store, at work, on the street, etc. close enough to draw a knife from a pocket, open the blade with a spring-loaded device and have an opportunity to slash or stab us? My guees that this would require about 1/3 of a second for someone who is practiced and focused on doing such a thing.

I am an average shooter who has been timed at cowboy fastdraw (hand on gun, no concealment clothing) at .528 seconds. I figured that I would be cut or stabbed twice before I got my gun out, or even more if from concealment.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I don't dispute that Bob, but I would like to know more. If a man is within twenty feet knife in hand, let's say 15 feet, and I know he's a threat, AND I have my hand on my gun shouldn't I still have the edge? Assuming I'm willing to draw and shoot. I know when I practice starting with hand on gun I can get off my first shot with accuracy in under a second. How fast can someone cover 15 feet from a stand still? Is it about situation awareness?

With today's double and triple retention holsters the police use-You would be dead.

We were trained to have our weapon in firing position.

You assume that there is only one threat to deal with-BAD THINK'N!

OLG

[Shorty Jack Hammer]

The Tuellar drill "rule" is that by the time the average officer can draw and fire two center mass shots a person could reach them if 21 feet or less away. You're probably still going to get cut. The average practiced draw from a level three holster is 1.7 seconds. One stage of our qual is to draw and fire two shots to the body of one target, two to the body of another, the one to the head of the first target then one to the head of the second target in less than 6 seconds from "7 yards". Last Friday was one of our range days so we practiced that drill over and over and by the time we were done almost everyone was doing it in just over 4.5 seconds.

[Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022]

THIS!

https://youtu.be/9igSoJHEdUo

[Utah Bob #35998]

With lots of practice an officer can draw and fire pretty quick. He still has a very good chance of gettin inured. No imagine that you as a concealed or even opn carrying citizen find youself in such a situation. I know almost no one who carriesmthat would stand much chance of surviving. The best thing youcan do is,nas always, be aware of what's going on around you.

When in doubt get away as fast as you can.

[Big Sarge]

Here's a video of a knife wielding attacker stabbing several officers and continuing to attack after he has been shot multiple times. Police in video used poor judgement in their approach of the assailant

 

[Alpo]

I guess that's "training". At 2:43 into that video, the cop shoots the knifer twice, and then stops, allowing the bad guy to fall to the ground a fraction of a second later.

 

Me? I'da kept shooting until he was down or the gun went click.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I guess that's "training". At 2:43 into that video, the cop shoots the knifer twice, and then stops, allowing the bad guy to fall to the ground a fraction of a second later.

 

Me? I'da kept shooting until he was down or the gun went click.

S

Standard training. Double tap and then assess the threat. If need be, shoot again. It would seem that nowadays a lot of cops apparently forget their training and empty an entire hi cap mag. Not great tactics for several reasons.

[Alpo]

Training can be a wonderful thing. It teaches your body a whole new set of muscle reactions.

 

Sometimes, though, it works against you.

 

Cops, used to was, were required, on the firing line, to police their brass as they went. Shoot the target, dump the brass in their hand, put it in the brass can. Cops got killed during shootouts, with a handfull of brass, looking for the brass can.

 

I read, many years back, of a bullseye shooter who was gonna try "practical" shooting. When he was told to start, he automatically stood up straight, put his left hand in his pocket, took careful aim and put one in the center of the target. And the time ran out.

 

As I learned in high school band - as you rehearse, so shalt thou perform.

[Utah Bob #35998]

GOOD training never works against you. But BAD training will get you kilt fast.

[Blastmaster]

"Under pressure, you don’t rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That’s why we train so hard."

[Dutch Wheeler]

Then there is the 21 foot rule...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx4UOPSuVB8&feature=youtu.be

[Rye Miles #13621]

I don't care if you can outdraw me, can you get you knife into me before I shoot you?

That's what I was thinking!

[Utah Bob #35998]

I don't care if you can outdraw me, can you get you knife into me before I shoot you?

 

It is quite possible.