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This maybe easy but my son and I saw it differently so here we go . Stage is a 10 10 4 . Shoot two SG targets at pos. one and take SG with you to pos. two . Shoot rifle then shoot two SG targets . Then move to pos. three and shoot pistols . Shooter for one reason or another does not shoot second pair of SG targets . If the reason does matter A: no ammo B: forgot C: SG broken . I didn't think the reason would matter unless SOG could somehow be brought into the situation but believe me in this case it wasn't . Now a call was made without any debate and Nobody is sweating it . This is just for my personal growth . Thanks

 

 

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Here's my take:

 

 

Situation A:

(I'd have to go look this up to be sure but I'll guess) If no ammo and the shooter had picked up the gun and tried, that would 2 misses for unfired rounds only.

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Situation B:

 

P for shooting the guns in the wrong order (not following stage instructions) and two misses for unfired rounds.

 

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Situation C: If the shotgun broke and the shooter declared a malfunction and discarded it, then it would only be the two misses for unfired rounds.

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This is one of the poster children for "A Miss does not cause a P".

 

The shooter just didn't shoot his 3rd and 4th shotgun shells. Those are "rounds not fired - considered as misses for scoring purposes."

 

If the shooter had a gun malfunction, would you be trying to assign him a P or Failure To Engage or even a SOG penalty? Folks thinking like that must have a deep dislike of their fellow shooters. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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This is one of the poster children for "A Miss does not cause a P".

 

The shooter just didn't shoot his 3rd and 4th shotgun shells. Those are "rounds not fired - considered as misses for scoring purposes."

 

If the shooter had a gun malfunction, would you be trying to assign him a P or Failure To Engage or even a SOG penalty? Folks thinking like that must have a deep dislike of their fellow shooters. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

Excuse me, but did the shooter shoot their guns in the proper order?

 

Phantom

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This is one of the poster children for "A Miss does not cause a P".

 

The shooter just didn't shoot his 3rd and 4th shotgun shells. Those are "rounds not fired - considered as misses for scoring purposes."

 

If the shooter had a gun malfunction, would you be trying to assign him a P or Failure To Engage or even a SOG penalty? Folks thinking like that must have a deep dislike of their fellow shooters. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

I have to disagree those aren't 'considered' misses the penalties are the same, but it's a penalty for unfired rounds, not misses.

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Sorry, I'm with Allie. Where was the TO all this time?? Should have been yelling "SHOTGUN"

Two Misses.

 

Coffinmaker

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The "Failure to Engage" for situations A and B would earn the shooter a P. In addition, two 5 second penalties would be earned for 2 unfired rounds. If the shooter could not engage, but attempted to, because of a firearm malfunction and declared this, then it should be scored as two 5 second penalties for unfired rounds.

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Sorry, I'm with Allie. Where was the TO all this time?? Should have been yelling "SHOTGUN"

Two Misses.

 

Coffinmaker

I see...well I hope I have a TO that's not on the ball so that I can get a "P" negated.

 

Now I'm off to see where that is in the rule(s) book...

 

Phantom

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Two unfired rounds & a P.

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A P and two 5 second penalties for rounds not fired, which on the score sheet are counted as misses.

 

Unless a malfunction was declared. Then just the 2 five second penalties.

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Excuse me, but did the shooter shoot their guns in the proper order?

 

Phantom

 

I could be talked into believing Grizzly Dave's explanation. :o:lol:

 

But a rigorous reading of the Miss Flow Chart shows that the chart would not support that explanation. It would assign the misses, as far as I read it, which stops the examination for a possible Procedure call. Which would perhaps mean the Miss Flow Chart is not quite correct for this scenario?

 

GJ

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I could be talked into believing Grizzly Dave's explanation. :o:lol:

 

GJ

Respectfully, I'm pretty sure that S-R-S-P is not the same as S-R-P, so I'm thinking maybe the first shot out of the first pistol was out of order.
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The shotgun was to have been used again after the rifle, before the pistols. Should have been shotgun, rifle, shotgun, pistols; P for either failure to engage (second shotgun sequence) or guns shot out of order, rifle - pistols instead of rifle - shotgun - pistols.

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Look, the guns were fired out of order. The shooter could have gone back and shot the SG after the pistols and walked away with only a "P".

 

Phantom

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So shooter A works on his SG before a stage and doesn't put it back together correctly so his SG won't fire at all. But his mistake is forgiven because he can call malfunction. Shooter B forgets to put ammo in his belt and his mistake cost him a P ?

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Look, the guns were fired out of order. The shooter could have gone back and shot the SG after the pistols and walked away with only a "P".

 

Phantom

 

Dangit, I was just thinking the same thing. I gotta agree with Phantom on that. :D

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If NO attempt was made to shoot the second two shotgun targets, then there's an automatic P earned. Stage instructions not followed. The two targets left standing, (or un-fired upon), will of course earn a miss for each.

 

Had the shooter ATTEMPTED to fire on the targets, then only misses would be charged. Not even attempting to fire on the targets would automatically earn him a P. This is NOT a case of a P earning a miss.

 

Failure to follow stage instructions = P

Shotgun targets left standing, whether fired on or not = 2 misses

 

RBK

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So shooter A works on his SG before a stage and doesn't put it back together correctly so his SG won't fire at all. But his mistake is forgiven because he can call malfunction. Shooter B forgets to put ammo in his belt and his mistake cost him a P ?

 

Given the OP state of 'for whatever reason doesn't shoot' we are operating with the understanding, or assumption if you prefer that the shooter made no attempt to shoot them, he/she downed the rifle and moved directly to the pistols. Picking up the shotgun and going to the belt and discovering it empty is a different animal.

 

TOs will often save shooters from things like that, but it is not assumed and the shooter is ultimately responsible for their own run.

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Hi Folks,

 

It saddens me that something this seemingly "simple" isn't. I don't care if what I wrote is right or wrong. I just wish the rule made it simple enough that we would not have differing opinions.

 

Another thought, shooter shoots four pistol and "for whatever reason" doesn't shoot the fifth. The rule book calls that a miss. Why would shooting two out of four SG be any different?

 

I hope the correct call (PWB) is something that I will remember because it is in line with other rules.

 

Regards,

 

AM

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Hi Folks,

 

It saddens me that something this seemingly "simple" isn't. I don't care if what I wrote is right or wrong. I just wish the rule made it simple enough that we would not have differing opinions.

 

Another thought, shooter shoots four pistol and "for whatever reason" doesn't shoot the fifth. The rule book calls that a miss. Why would shooting two out of four SG be any different?

 

I hope the correct call (PWB) is something that I will remember because it is in line with other rules.

 

Regards,

 

AM

Because there was another gun between the first two and second two and another gun after.

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Given the OP state of 'for whatever reason doesn't shoot' we are operating with the understanding, or assumption if you prefer that the shooter made no attempt to shoot them, he/she downed the rifle and moved directly to the pistols. Picking up the shotgun and going to the belt and discovering it empty is a different animal.

 

TOs will often save shooters from things like that, but it is not assumed and the shooter is ultimately responsible for their own run.

It's always good to see how all the different people would make different calls and why. Hopefully PWB will respond and settle it.

That's why I gave A. B. C

I wanted to see if why it happened would change the call. Thanks.

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Okay, interesting and good point. However, where does it fit into the rules. :unsure:

 

Reference RO 1 page 15 under point 9.

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Reference RO 1 page 15 under point 9.

Is there a reference to support your saying that if they were going to shoot but didn't have ammo or the gun was broke then the P would be forgiven. And let me repeat. I am Not arguing one way or the other. At the end of the day I Don't Care what the call is. I just want us all on the same page. If A. B. C options change the call then I want us all to understand that. Thanks.

 

I'm in traffic and on my phone or I'd be looking some of this up so thanks for your help.

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Two 5-second penalties for "unfired rounds" (call them misses or not...they're 5-seconds each and scored as such).

 

Procedural for "brain fade" (A) for forgetting enough ammo to complete the stage requirements.

Procedural for "brain fade" (B) for forgetting to use the shotgun for the second SG string.

(C) No "P" for attempting to fire the SG: discovering a malfunction; declaring it; then safely grounding the SG before moving to the pistol sequence.

 

FWIW - There is no "Failure to Engage" penalty involved here.

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Two 5-second penalties for "unfired rounds" (call them misses or not...they're 5-seconds each and scored as such).

 

Procedural for "brain fade" (A) for forgetting enough ammo to complete the stage requirements.

Procedural for "brain fade" (B) for forgetting to use the shotgun for the second SG string.

(C) No "P" for attempting to fire the SG: discovering a malfunction; declaring it; then safely grounding the SG before moving to the pistol sequence.

 

FWIW - There is no "Failure to Engage" penalty involved here.

You da man. Thanks

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...and this is NOT a case of "A Miss causing a Procedural"...

 

the "brain fade" P (A&B ) resulted in the unfired rounds being scored against the shooter.

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Malfunction - SHB pages 24-25 point 18 last part. (also covered in RO 1 page 17 point 18) though the point primarily addressed rounds left in a gun, I would interpret it as also include guns picked up in an attempt to fire that were broken and a malfunction declared.

 

Failure to attempt to fire a firearm is covered in RO 1 page 24 under procedural penalties. It's the first one on the list in face.

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