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I once saw a shooter not bring enough shells. He fired the first two, reached for his belt and none were there. He then raised the shotgun and yelled "bang, bang". We all got a laugh out of that. I have no idea how if was called though. I assume just two misses?

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Thanks PW!

 

I will try to think about it until it is embedded in my memory! ;)

 

Regards,

 

AM

 

PS I've never, ever seen a shooter given a P for running out of SG shells. "Procedural for "brain fade" (A) for forgetting enough ammo to complete the stage requirements." :ph34r:

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Penalty Overview(s) on Pages 23 & 24 of ROI manual:

 

• Each Unfired Round. Five Second Penalty. (Page 23 ROI)

 

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm. Ten Second Procedural Penalty. ( Page 24 ROI)

 

Following the "Flow Chart" on Page 27 of the ROI would have you assessing two misses and, then (in terms of the flow chart) a procedural penalty. (The "P" cannot cause a "Miss" myth is not represented in that chart).

 

• Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds (or not) will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe... (Page 17 ROI) (But, of course, refer back to number one above with respect to penalties for unfired rounds)

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Two 5-second penalties for "unfired rounds" (call them misses or not...they're 5-seconds each and scored as such).

 

Procedural for "brain fade" (A) for forgetting enough ammo to complete the stage requirements.

Procedural for "brain fade" (B) for forgetting to use the shotgun for the second SG string.

(C) No "P" for attempting to fire the SG: discovering a malfunction; declaring it; then safely grounding the SG before moving to the pistol sequence.

 

FWIW - There is no "Failure to Engage" penalty involved here.

 

Just so I'm clear, let's look at a stage, shotgun is last, 6 targets, I only have 6 shells, it takes me all 6 to take down the first four targets, the last two obviously count as misses cuz they are still standing, but does it earn me a P as well?

 

In the OP the P is earned for failing to attempt to fire the firearm, no matter the reason. I guess in my mind picking it up and going to the belt to discover it empty counts as an attempt. Of course if it was me I'd yell 'BANG BANG' for comedic effect.

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Just so I'm clear, let's look at a stage, shotgun is last, 6 targets, I only have 6 shells, it takes me all 6 to take down the first four targets, the last two obviously count as misses cuz they are still standing, but does it earn me a P as well?

 

In the OP the P is earned for failing to attempt to fire the firearm, no matter the reason. I guess in my mind picking it up and going to the belt to discover it empty counts as an attempt. Of course if it was me I'd yell 'BANG BANG' for comedic effect.

How many SG rounds were required per the stage instructions?

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How many SG rounds were required per the stage instructions?

Does it matter? He said it was 6 SG and he used up six rounds. If I take up 6 for a 6+ stage and run out before I engage the sixth target am I getting more than just a miss. Or if I take up 10 for that matter and half fall out while I'm running to the SG does that mean I could earn more than a miss. I guess what I'm saying is what does the + add to the equation if anything. Thanks.
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Does it matter? He said it was 6 SG and he used up six rounds. If I take up 6 for a 6+ stage and run out before I engage the sixth target am I getting more than just a miss. Or if I take up 10 for that matter and half fall out while I'm running to the SG does that mean I could earn more than a miss. I guess what I'm saying is what does the + add to the equation if anything. Thanks.

Page 22 of the Shooters Handbook states the Stage Conventions for our Game. The first two conventions are:

 

 

1. All knockdown shotgun targets may be reengaged until down.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

(i.e. always take more ammo than you need)

The Glossary of Terms (Page 30 ROI) defines engagement:

Engaged – attempting to fire a round at the target.

And, as has already been offered:

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm. Ten Second Procedural Penalty. ( Page 24 ROI)

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Page 22 of the Shooters Handbook states the Stage Conventions for our Game. The first two conventions are:

 

 

1. All knockdown shotgun targets may be reengaged until down.

2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

 

 

(i.e. always take more ammo than you need)

Thanks but that doesn't answer the question that was asked. Read back a few post.

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I guess what I'm saying is what does the + add to the equation if anything. Thanks.

 

 

 

I believe it means you MUST fire 6 rnds even if two targets go down with one rnd.

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I guess what I'm saying is what does the + add to the equation if anything. Thanks.

 

 

 

I believe it means you MUST fire 6 rnds even if two targets go down with one rnd.

From what I've seen you get that without the +.
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Does it matter? He said it was 6 SG and he used up six rounds. If I take up 6 for a 6+ stage and run out before I engage the sixth target am I getting more than just a miss. Or if I take up 10 for that matter and half fall out while I'm running to the SG does that mean I could earn more than a miss. I guess what I'm saying is what does the + add to the equation if anything. Thanks.

Does it matter?

 

Yes, in answering Grizzly Dave's question.

 

No P because the shooter met the stage requirements. To do otherwise would require the range officer to insert knowledge of the shooter's intent into the equation.

 

Phantom

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From what I've seen you get that without the +.

The X+ terminology is there so that a stage writer can define only X SG can be used...therefore, no make ups may be made. Without the "+", no make ups if the number defined in the instructions match the number of SG targets.

 

Phantom

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If you were in a gunfight, would your opponent treat you differently if you <A> didn't shoot at him, or <B> ran out of ammo?

 

Probably not but......unlike SASS you could always try to beat said opponent to death with the shotgun.....or throw it at them.

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If you were in a gunfight, would you opponent treat you differently if you <A> didn't shoot at him, or <B> ran out of ammo?

I think that's a little off but using that reasoning.

If you were in a gunfight would your opponent treat you differently if A you ran out of ammo or B your gun broke?

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Phantom , Dave asked a question and you answered it with a question. I thought there was something you were getting at. But now I see it was rhetorical. My mistake.

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Phantom , Dave asked a question and you answered it with a question. I thought there was something you were getting at. But now I see it was rhetorical. My mistake.

Yep - rhetorical.

 

I've always had a aversion to answering questions directly...that aversion got permanently imbedded into my being while my kids where in middle/high school.

 

Phantom

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Interesting. While it doesn't relate to the OP, in some situations, the whole call can depend on the definition of "ENGAGED" ????? Kind of reminds me of a political situation many years ago. I've never been comfortable with the SASS definition of ENGAGED. It differs from the definition in every other shooting sport.

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FWIW,

 

I;ve had a yard sale or two of shotgun shells (fell/knocked out of belt)while transversing the firing line to get to the other side to engage KD's. I guess if I had lost them all and had none when I got there, I would've gotten a P. I didn't loose a couple but more like 6-7.

 

I've also seen shooters drop two, shoot two, lay down two and end up with none. They didn't engage all KD or fire required count. So I guess they get a P too.

 

Perhaps my case would be just misses where as the OP had shells but just didn't use them, thus a P.

 

I would've voted for just two misses for the OP, but guess I would've been wrong.

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Ok, Most Wanted

 

I don't think I saw the answer to this................what was the call at the match and between you and your son who was right?

 

Sheesh...........you don't look at the wire for one afternoon and look what happens!

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Ok, Most Wanted

 

I don't think I saw the answer to this................what was the call at the match and between you and your son who was right?

 

Sheesh...........you don't look at the wire for one afternoon and look what happens!

What are you trying to say, Wyatt? I do not believe you missed an afternoon here... ;)

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I understood the answer.

 

Stage calls for 6+, you shoot at least 6 and take misses for targets left standing.

 

Stage calls for 6+ and you only have 4 you should get a P and misses for standing targets.

 

I've just never seen it called that way. Or at least I don't remember seeing it called that way.

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What are you trying to say, Wyatt? I do not believe you missed an afternoon here... ;)

 

:ph34r: It was to late to get involved............just tried to catch up!

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Ok, Most Wanted

 

I don't think I saw the answer to this................what was the call at the match and between you and your son who was right?

 

Sheesh...........you don't look at the wire for one afternoon and look what happens!

The correct call was made and I was WRONG. Glad I kept my mouth shut. This is a call that I have seen missed many times. And trying to work all the different what ifs really twist this around. Let's say there's three pos and two SG are engaged at each. When the shooter gets to pos three he's out of SG ammo. So now we have to remember if he had any makeups then look on the ground for live ammo in case some were dropped. If we come up with six all is good if not P. Hope a live one isn't hiding under a boardwalk. And yes the TO tried to get the shooter back but he was long gone. No I wasn't the shooter and again their wasn't any discussion as to right or wrong call.

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I understood the answer.

 

Stage calls for 6+, you shoot at least 6 and take misses for targets left standing.

 

Stage calls for 6+ and you only have 4 you should get a P and misses for standing targets.

 

I've just never seen it called that way. Or at least I don't remember seeing it called that way.

You and me both. Learn something everyday.
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Failure to stage guns or ammunition at the designated position(s)/location(s) is the fault of the competitor and scored as a procedural unless the competitor is able to correct the situation, unassisted, while in the process of completing the stage under time. The penalty for using "illegally acquired" ammunition (i.e., NOT carried to the line/staged by the shooter in an approved manner) is a PROCEDURAL. Any targets hit using that ammo are scored as MISSES. NO adjustments will be made to the stage raw time.

 

SHB pp. 22 & 26

RO1 p. 20

 

If the shooter initially brought the designated number of rounds to the stage in a legal manner; then either shot them up or dropped them at some point, there would be no "P" under this rule.

S/he would still get the 5-second penalty for each unfired round/target still standing (assuming SG KD's)

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SHB pp. 22 & 26

RO1 p. 20

 

If the shooter initially brought the designated number of rounds to the stage in a legal manner; then either shot them up or dropped them at some point, there would be no "P" under this rule.

S/he would still get the 5-second penalty for each unfired round/target still standing (assuming SG KD's)

That is an answer that I can understand and support. Thank you!

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SHB pp. 22 & 26

RO1 p. 20

 

If the shooter initially brought the designated number of rounds to the stage in a legal manner; then either shot them up or dropped them at some point, there would be no "P" under this rule.

S/he would still get the 5-second penalty for each unfired round/target still standing (assuming SG KD's)

that answers by concerns and situation. Thanks PW!!

 

I am still chewing on what the difference is between two shooters bringing the required amount , and staged legally of SG shells... One shooter drops his and just gets 5 second penalties and Second Shooter just forgets to use his,,,, he gets a P plus 5 second penalties for each target still standing/not-engaged.

 

As with Grizz, I haven't really seen this situation, but I am not too worried or upset with any of it.

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I think attempted to engage comes into play. He did even pick the shotgun up........p+ 2 unfired rounds. Which is different than firing a shot and not hitting the target....... 20 seconds is painful doen't matter who you are

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I appreciate all that replied and I got an answer that settles it . So any further discussion is just that . Using the OP stage . If a shooter goes to the line with the necessary amount of SG shells and shoots two targets at pos A then on the way to setting his SG down at pos B he knocks his needed shells on to the ground . Then he shoots his rifle and doesn't bother to touch his SG because he knows the needed shells are on the ground and proceeds strait to pos C and shoots his pistols . Two misses . Same exact stage is shot but second shooter doesn't touch his SG because he forgot to shoot remaining targets . Two misses and a P . Both shooter error but one gets a P and one doesn't . Just so we're clear I'm not saying the first shooter should get a P .

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