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Why not borrow Blackpowder, was he the only Frontiersman?

 

YES...he was the only one on the range at that time (Staff/RO/PM "pre-shoot" for a State match).

Grizz came up with the obvious solution.

 

^_^

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Just for fun (I think this thread should make at least 5 pages :P ) back to what Grizz said almost in jest earlier. Pointing the gun at the targets and saying: BANG,BANG. Reading the SASS definition of "ENGAGED"

 

Engaged - Attempting to fire a round at a target RO1 page 30

 

Does that remove the "P" ????

(quote) YES...it would remove any "P" for failure to attempt to fire a firearm.

 

But it would not remove the "P" for failure to stage ammo if the shooter had not loaded his gun or not brought enough ammo. (If I am following this correctly?)

The "Bang Bang" remedy could only be used if all of rounds (4) had been fired on the first two shotgun targets in Grizz's scenario of the split shotgun, or if all the extra rounds were dropped on the way to engage. The shooter would have had to bring the prescribed minimum number of rounds to the firing line.

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I believe pointing your empty gun at the target and going "Bang, Bang" is PRETENDING to shoot the target, but is NOT attempting to engage. IMO, it would not negate the P.

On occasion, I hear people at the LT whisper bang, bang, bang as they pretend to shoot the stage. Does that count? Or do you have to wait till after the beep? Who's beep? LOL

 

Edit: PS, I agree with you

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I believe pointing your empty gun at the target and going "Bang, Bang" is PRETENDING to shoot the target, but is NOT attempting to engage. IMO, it would not negate the P.

What about when a person has a round that fails to fire? Are they not engaging the target either?

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Howdy Possum Skinner

 

The answer to this one should be interesting because my understanding is that it does.

 

I thought about this one yesterday. The example I came up with was: A GF forgets to load his pistols.

Stage calls for rifle, pistols, shotgun. Shooter gets to pistols, pulls pistols and click, click, click. Realizes the pistols are empty, holsters and moves to shotgun. My understanding is that is a P and 10-5 sec penalties for unfired rounds. If the GF had performed 10 clicks the P would not have applied or announced "Broke" grounded pistols and moved on.

 

Dang.........my head hurts!

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I would hope that something has to come out the end of the barrel (or cylinder) to count as 'engaged'. Bullet, puff of smoke, a SG wad, BB's rolling out the end of the barrel,,,,,, something. But that is just me.

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I would hope that something has to come out the end of the barrel (or cylinder) to count as 'engaged'. Bullet, puff of smoke, a SG wad, BB's rolling out the end of the barrel,,,,,, something. But that is just me.

Not in SASS.
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If you attempt to fire at the target, (e.g. shell in chamber, but light strike and round fails to go off) no P. That counts as attempting. If you jack out a round, you were attempting to engage target. Pointing an empty gun at the target and yelling, "Bang, bang, bang, bank, bang) is PRETENDING to engage the target. Big difference! To carry this argument further, if saying, "Bang, bang" counts as engaging, wouldn't saying, "clang, clang" count as hits?

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Is yelling Bang, Bang, Bang..............attempting to fire a round at the target? That is an interesting question.

 

I heard the Clang, Clang, Clang............I saw the rounds hit the stand. Three misses :lol:

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Possum , are you saying ( and I'm probably getting it wrong) that if the stage calls for six SG. And by the time I get to target six I have expended all my SG shells , let's say 8 shells. So I have no ammo to engage the target so I get the failure to engage p(failure to attempt to Fire a firearm ) ? Thanks.

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if the stage calls for six SG. And by the time I get to target six I have expended all my SG shells , let's say 8 shells. So I have no ammo to engage the target so I get the failure to engage p(failure to attempt to Fire a firearm ) ?

 

The way the explanation has gone on this, it depends upon when the shooter finds he has run out of shells.

 

If shotgun is shot "unsplit" by any other type of gun, then no P, because the gun was able to be fired at (at least) one SG target. Just misses for unfired rounds.

 

If the shotgun usage is split by movement or by another type of gun that has to be shot in between, then if the shooter runs out as they begin to use the shotgun for the second shotgun usage, that is a P for failing to be able to shoot the shotgun during that second usage, plus misses for unfired rounds.

 

If the shotgun usage is split by movement or by another type of gun that has to be shot in between, but the shooter can fire at least one round at the second usage time/position, then it's back to just unfired rounds counting as misses.

 

This is a pretty complicated and hard to grasp fallout of our current rule set. Yuck.

 

And, we will see it more often as we continue to use "split-shotgun" stages. Fortunately, we hardly ever do "split-rifle" stages.

 

In fact, we could see the penalty having to be issued for stages where the "splitting" of the shotgun is because you shoot it, in continuous use, from two or three different positions requiring movement between. As I understand what we need to penalize, having four shells with you, and having to shoot a pair of SG targets from each of three windows, would give you the P and two unfired rounds at the third window, because there was movement between 2nd and 3rd window, and you are required to engage from the 3rd position by stage instructions, which you cannot do due to lack of shells. Double yuck.

 

Good luck, GJ

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GJ, I agree with your position, but how do you get to that position in the rules? What once seemed simple is now not.

 

Based on the rule:

 

 

Procedural Penalties

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by “brain fade,” confusion, ignorance, or mistakes (not to exceed one for any given stage).

 

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm

RO I handbook, page 24

 

I get to that conclusion because I used to go with this meaning:

the first time you use the shotgun, that removes any possible P penalty for not using it a second time if the stage instructions have split the shotgun into being used at two different times or two different positions. I assumed that once the shooter used it, it was fired (sure smells like it has been fired), so inability to use it at the second time or position would just be "unfired-rounds."

 

We now have been told clearly that that interpretation of the rule is wrong.

 

So, now, where a type of gun is split by another type of gun or by movement, you still have to "attempt to fire the right firearm" at each point in the instructions where you are to fire the firearm. QED - you are subject to the P for failure to fire at each point in the split-shotgun stage instructions.

 

Out of simple, into complicated.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The way the explanation has gone on this, it depends upon when the shooter finds he has run out of shells.

 

If shotgun is shot "unsplit" by any type of gun, then no P, because the gun was able to be fired at (at least) one target. Just misses for unfired rounds. My understanding is a P for not firing/having enough rounds to engage targets. Unless employing the click, click or "Broke"

 

If the shotgun usage is split by movement or by another type of gun that has to be shot in between, then if the shooter runs out as they begin to use the shotgun for the second shotgun usage, that is a P for failing to be able to shoot the shotgun during that second usage, plus misses for unfired rounds. Let say there are four shotgun KD the shooter fire at least four rounds during the course of fire, no P

 

If the shotgun usage is split by movement or by another type of gun that has to be shot in between, but the shooter can fire at least one round at the second usage time/position, then it's back to just unfired rounds counting as misses. At some point during the course of fire, the minimum number of rounds needs to be expended to avoid a P

 

This is a pretty complicated and hard to grasp fallout of our current rule set. Yuck.

 

And, we will see it more often as we continue to use "split-shotgun" stages. Fortunately, we hardly ever do "split-rifle" stages.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

That's my understanding...............all of this is above my pay grade

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And I have NEVER seen a P awarded for running short of rounds once a firearm type is being used. NEVER at EOT nor Winter Range. NEVER, EVER. Wow, sorry if I was yelling. :lol:

 

So I would really challenge the interpretation:

 

 

 

My understanding is a P for not firing/having enough rounds to engage (all of) the targets.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

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SHB pp. 22 & 26

RO1 p. 20

 

If the shooter initially brought the designated number of rounds to the stage in a legal manner; then either shot them up or dropped them at some point, there would be no "P" under this rule.

S/he would still get the 5-second penalty for each unfired round/target still standing (assuming SG KD's)

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:ph34r:

 

FWIW - the "P" for "failure to stage guns or ammo..." is very RARELY (if ever) assessed for neglecting to bring AMMO to a stage.

It is generally applied for mis-staging guns or ammo (e.g. supposed to be on a prop, instead of holstered...or ammo in a box instead of belt loops).

Both easily remedied "on the clock" & "unassisted" by proper staging before actual use on the stage.

 

Not saying that's right or fair...most T/Os are hesitant to add the additional penalty to that for the unfired round(s).

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The complications of this decision that the posse has to make is enough to make us consider that this is not simple enough yet.

 

Proof: see above.

 

Good luck, GJ

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The complications of this decision that the posse has to make is enough to make us consider that this is not simple enough yet.

 

 

Proof: see above.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

I agree with you Sir. My thought on the matter is if the event as it happened including all the fine points were presented to 6 of the top, respected, knowledgeable and qualified RO's you would still get a difference of opinion on the call. Having said that I think the best we can hope for is at any match, particularly at a large or major event, if there are disputes on a call, that the MD makes the final decision as is done. That way, you are getting a consistent interpretation from one person. It might vary from one match to the next but I can live with that.

I'm sure I will be told if I'm way off base.

 

Enjoy your shooting Folks!

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come on guys, keep trying. We HAVE to get to page 5 :P:D:D

 

Like I said back on page 3, the SASS definition of "Engaged" is different than in other sports. As PaleWolf has already said, whether you like it or not, pointing the firearm at the target and saying something like Bang, Bang, fulfills the SASS definition of Engaged.

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Like I said back on page 3, the SASS definition of "Engaged" is different than in other sports. As PaleWolf has already said, whether you like it or not, pointing the firearm at the target and saying something like Bang, Bang, fulfills the SASS definition of Engaged.

 

Shall I record all the laughter that I will get when at our club we next discuss the rule for awarding a P for failing to fire a firearm? And I point out to them that "a verbal bang" is sufficient to avoid the P?

 

You're right, I don't like it one bit. It is a silly state of affairs. I will enforce it, but I won't defend it. It's just silly.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

PS. This really stems from the definition for Engaged. I have declared before that the Engaged definition we use is wrong in several ways. This is proof of one of the ways it is wrong.

 

PPS - then again, I can enjoy "silly" as much as the next cowboy. :blink::lol:;)

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Well, then, what should Engaged be defined as?

 

something closer to what other sports use.

 

Perhaps, even, "When a bullet or shot column leaves the barrel of the gun as a result of firing the gun."

 

That would prevent a squib or no-fire-cap or no rounds in the gun from satisfying "Engaged" condition.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I'll let y'all know when/IF that check arrives.

 

^_^

 

The check is in the hands of the USPS

 

I'll keep an eye on the mail for my new RO pin from you

 

Thanks

 

PS: Every few years I'll PM you when I need a new one :D

 

 

 

 

PPS: Hi Allie! :ph34r: I'm going back to Lurking and More Sarcasm

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I don't see why the definition needs to be changed.

 

Engaged = attempting to fire a round at the target. Special note, it doesn't say a imaginary round. You can't attempt to fire a round that isn't there.

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Failure to bring/load the minimum amount of ammo to the firing line, as designated by stage instructions - A procedural unless corrected on the clock.

This would apply to the shooter that forgot to load his gun(s) at the loading table and also to forgetting to load or bring his shotgun rounds.

 

Failure to shoot a gun is the order specified by stage instructions - A procedural unless corrected on the clock and prior to the next gun being fired.

This is applied only if the shooter forgets or intentionally bypasses an entire shooting string and has not received a prior procedural on the stage.

 

All targets not engaged, or in the case of knockdowns left standing, are counted as misses.

 

Like some others, I don't think the "bang bang" exemption is really valid although it is entertaining.

Am I on the right track?

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come on guys, keep trying. We HAVE to get to page 5 :P:D:D

 

Like I said back on page 3, the SASS definition of "Engaged" is different than in other sports. As PaleWolf has already said, whether you like it or not, pointing the firearm at the target and saying something like Bang, Bang, fulfills the SASS definition of Engaged.

I believe saying "bang bang" is optional. : ) maybe PWB can weigh in again and clarify.

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