1873 discussion

[J-BAR #18287]

Competition in a free market is always the best way to provide high quality and low prices for a consumer.

 

I hope both Uberti and Winchester/Miroku sell enough 1873s over the long haul for us to get the benefits.

 

Choice is good!

[Russ T. Sites]

Competition in a free market is always the best way to provide high quality and low prices for a consumer.

 

I hope both Uberti and Winchester/Miroku sell enough 1873s over the long haul for us to get the benefits.

 

Choice is good!

+1. With 2 manufacturers I think both will end up making better rifles and we will benefit

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Since we're discussing different 1873's, why not throw into the discussion barrel length. What are people's thoughts on this? Also, although not available yet on the new winchesters, how about opinions on straight stock versus pistol grips.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Told ya all my druthers on post #8

 

Rance

thinkin' I repeat myself enough without doin' it the wire :lol:

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Rance,

 

Your post is part of the reason I added the extra questions about barrel length and pistol grip, so you're partly to blame heh

[Charlie Whiskers]

I actually have 3 73's all with different barrel lengths and all 3 are the straight stock. I don't like the pistol grip stock. My original 73 in 44-40 is a 24inch. My other 2 are in 38/357, one's a 19inch carbine and the 1st one I bought is the 20inch. I've gotten to where I shoot the carbine 90% of the time. I have bum shoulders and it's lighter and with the shorter (not that much I know) barrel it seems to swing faster to the next target than the 20 inch. Maybe it's just in my head, but it seems like that to me.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Since we're discussing different 1873's, why not throw into the discussion barrel length. What are people's thoughts on this? Also, although not available yet on the new winchesters, how about opinions on straight stock versus pistol grips.

I prefer a straight stock and a 24 inch barrel on my '73. I like the extra weight out front to help stabilize the gun.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

For what we do on the action side of things, for me length of pull is more critical than barrel length. Have a 20 inch Miruko 73 short rifle, a Rossi 92 24 inch rifle and a 20 inch Rossi round barreled carbine. Of the 3 the rossi carbine fits best. I need to get used to the Miruko. The Miruko is significantly heavier than the 92 carbine.

 

For long range shooting the longer barrel and longer sight radius help a lot.

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I am with Charlie on this, the lighter the better, as I shoot senior.

[Frenchy Cannuck]

Well!

I sold my Uberti 66 in .357mag to upgrade to .45colt.

I recently found and bought a Winchester (Miroku) 1873 in .45 Colt 20" barrel, I had a Pioneer Short Stroke kit put in, a new Carrier and a new front sight. I had the lever safety spring lightened and she is a real smooth running rifle.

The spring and magazine follower are stainless steel so no need to replace'em.

I would easily recommend it. The CHB is second to none!

 

Frenchy

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I shot an uberti 73 today in 44-40, thanks to a good pard in Tully Mars. It was really nice and smooth while handling some really fun black powder loads. It has me considering the whole Uberti/Winchester debate some more. On top of that, another shooter purchased an original Winchester 73 in 44-40. Anyone have experience with that as well?

[Charlie Whiskers]

I know one shooter that has an original 73 in 44-40. It was made in 75 or 76...I forget which. All he'll shoot in that is BP. Most of the time he shoots his 92's in 38-40 or 32-20 using smokeless.

[Tombstone Tex]

Bighipiron, how do you mean you are considering the debate more?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I shot an uberti 73 today in 44-40, thanks to a good pard in Tully Mars. It was really nice and smooth while handling some really fun black powder loads. It has me considering the whole Uberti/Winchester debate some more. On top of that, another shooter purchased an original Winchester 73 in 44-40. Anyone have experience with that as well?

They all three work well enough (with proper tuning) to keep most folks satisfied at least 10 years in SASS. If you are the one-in-a-hundred who starts winning state and regional categories, and maybe even an overall, then you are well justified in finding the fractional-second-difference between these guns on a ten shot string. I think you are over-thinking this at this point:

 

It has me considering the whole Uberti/Winchester debate some more

 

Get a good gun, shoot it a lot and learn from your experience. Most championships right now are being won with the Uberti 73s. Then Marlin 94s. The Miroku/Winchester has not been around long enough at this point to be a speed demon. And original Winnies have owners who usually don't want to ruin their value with enough mods to make them competitive.

 

 

 

Since we're discussing different 1873's, why not throw into the discussion barrel length. What are people's thoughts on this? Also, although not available yet on the new winchesters, how about opinions on straight stock versus pistol grips.

 

No one has ever shown any data on which barrel length or grip style is "better". Shucks, we can't even all agree on what BETTER would mean. As fast as possible while having enough accuracy and nice enough balance to hit every target is about all that I care about. And short enough to never hang me up on a stage prop.

 

I haven't found that combination yet. And from looking at other pards scores, that level of "better" is hard to find. Therefore, it's all personal comfort and experience. There's a story regarding Badlands Bud winning EOT with a borrowed stock rifle. I believe it. At least 80% of success with the rifle, is the shooter.

 

I have "pretty good" rifle speed and accuracy. It has not won me a first place yet. Rifle never will. It's shotgun speed and handgun reliable accuracy that I need, as do 98% of the other folks playing this game.

 

"You hold your own with a rifle, you lose on your shotgun and you win on your revolvers," I believe is how the saying goes.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Bighipiron, how do you mean you are considering the debate more?

I just mean whether I am going to get the New Winchester or the Uberti. I'm sold on the 44-40 rounds.

 

GJ, I can't find any fault in your logic. I think that I have a good 20 years before I get to be as good as most of the fellas at my club. I am not looking for any speed advantages or some kind of trick that will push me into first place. I am looking for a rifle in 44-40 that I can shoot smokeless now and possibly switch over to BP in the future. What I need in a rifle is something that is fairly smooth, reliable, will hold up to our game, and looks good (not necessarily in that order either). Right now I am leaning toward the new Winchester. They should come available in these parts in the next couple of months, which is when I should be in a good position to purchase one.

[Tombstone Tex]

Gotta say, I have not compared Uberti to Winchester in a head-to-head type situation. You mentioned that you shot the Uberti today in 44-40 and you are sold on the cartridge. But I have shot the Winchester, I couldn't believe how smooth that was box stock. Unfortunately, I have not handled a Uberti, so we are exactly opposite on that matter.

 

To me, and this may be horrendous, but I've never fired a 44-40. I will learn quickly and because I will be shooting, I'm sure I'll love it haha. But I am gripped by the authenticity of it, much like I had been with the 45 Colt, and love that. Plus, while this argument has been hashed out numerous times, I'm a sucker for branding, and the feller I'm looking to purchase has the Winchester name on it. I know, I know, my six guns aren't Colt's, but cost wise, the pair of Uberti's that I shoot just about equal half the price of a single new Colt SAA, whereas for the 1873, price comparison is about a $100 difference (if that) to pick up the Winchester v. the Uberti.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

That's sort of my thinking there as well, Tombstone Tex. Although the name is not the deciding factor for me, the fact that the new Winchesters come with much stronger steel, look and function really well out of the box, and just happen to say Winchester is a big pull for me. I did handle one in a store not long ago and it was ridiculously smooth in comparison to what I usually run. The Uberti I shot was really cool as well and didn't have that much done to it either. Just some minor action work and new springs, no short stroke. The black powder was the best part though. The boom, smoke, and smell was just way too cool.

 

This thread has shown many of the advantages and disadvantages of each, which is what I was hoping for when I started it. The only real downside I can find in the new Winchesters for me is that they won't be available again in these parts until around April-May time frame. That's fine by me. I am still pretty darn happy shooting my '66 until then.

[Tombstone Tex]

Well to be fair, between this thread and other's I have read, the quality of the metal is a big sell point for me moreso than the branding. Lots of stories of folks breaking tabs off etc. I wont be running at champion speed by any means so I don't expect that any time soon haha.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I'm going to keep watching you, Tex. whichever one of us gets that Winchester first will have to give the other a complete detailed report. I've decided on the 20" barrel and want the cch, but will take the standard blue if that's all I can get.

[Lucky Vaquero]

I have owned 3 different Ubertis. A 24" half-octagon 357 rifle, a 19" round barrel 44mag carbine, and a 20" octagon 45 Colt competition carbine. I bought the 357 first, then the 44mag, then the 45 Colt. I sold the 357 after getting the competion carbine 45 Colt and I still have the 44mag. I'm looking for a pair of 44mag Vaqueros to go with it.

 

I haven't had a bit of trouble with any of the three. Both the 357 and the 44mag would function perfectly fine with either the the mag calibers or their shorter cousins (38spl and 44spl).

 

I really like the competition carbine a lot. The factory short stroke works fine and the bigger gold bead front sight gets the job done.

 

Folks have been running the Uberti '73's pretty hard for a lot of years with good success. I doubt the Mirokus are significantly any better or any worse.

 

If I were in the market for a new 1873 I'd probably just buy whichever one I found first for a reasonable price. I really like my Ubertis. I'm

pretty sure I'd really like any Mirokus I happened to find in my gun safe too.

[Tombstone Tex]

HAHAHAH Sounds like a deal sir!

 

I was originally thinking the 20 inch round barrel myself, but after seeing some 24 inch octagonal, I'm liking them mighty fine haha. We will see what pops up and when though. Like yourself, it will really depend on availability as to what I will get. That is also why I really enjoyed the question about barrel lengths.

 

I think I may have mentioned it before, but a few months back, while the weather was still warm round these parts, I asked the folks at my friendly LGS if they could locate a winchester 44-40 20 inch cch. That was a Tuesday, told me they could have it on that thursday.....to my shame, I passed on it. However, if I did get it, it likely would've been used on me by the soon-to-be missus. Now that I am back in the market, yeah sure, good luck finding anything . I will certainly keep you up to date.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

What "tabs" are these '73's breaking?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

What "tabs" are these '73's breaking?

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220640&hl=%2Bnew+%2Buberti+%2Bbolt

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

HAHAHAH Sounds like a deal sir!

 

I was originally thinking the 20 inch round barrel myself, but after seeing some 24 inch octagonal, I'm liking them mighty fine haha. We will see what pops up and when though. Like yourself, it will really depend on availability as to what I will get. That is also why I really enjoyed the question about barrel lengths.

 

I think I may have mentioned it before, but a few months back, while the weather was still warm round these parts, I asked the folks at my friendly LGS if they could locate a winchester 44-40 20 inch cch. That was a Tuesday, told me they could have it on that thursday.....to my shame, I passed on it. However, if I did get it, it likely would've been used on me by the soon-to-be missus. Now that I am back in the market, yeah sure, good luck finding anything . I will certainly keep you up to date.

Before Sunday I would have told you that I only want a 24 inch barrel, as is my 66, but after shooting that 20 inch, I can say that I really enjoyed it. Being that the Winchester 20" is more available and cheaper is just an added bonus.

[Zach Taylor,SASS#14359]

For Tombstone Tex, I have a Winchester 73 in 357 and a 45, both short barrels , no complaint on either, I have had Ubertis and Rossi's in 357, 45 and 44-40 , in my opinion, the Winchester, with no work on it, is the best of the bunch and I don't plan on doing anything to any of them. After all that , I found a 24 inch oct. barrel in 357 at Bass Pro Shop last summer, just as good as the others. This is a rifle you can shoot out of the box, unlike the Uberti, which usually needs work.Also, I prefer the longer version.

[Tombstone Tex]

The longer version just has an "original" look to it, be it Uberti or Winchester. I like that idea personally, hell, my shotty is a hammered double , so I'm definitely about the original type looks. Granted, I know the original 1873 came in a few different models, but still.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I think I read somewhere that it was an east coast/west coast thing for barrel lengths. That does make sense seeing how it's much thicker brush out in these parts and much more open back there. When it comes to barrel lengths, my thought is why not have both (or even more for that matter)? My '66 is 24 inches so my 73 will most likely be 20.

[Captain Bill Burt]

That's sort of my thinking there as well, Tombstone Tex. Although the name is not the deciding factor for me, the fact that the new Winchesters come with much stronger steel, look and function really well out of the box, and just happen to say Winchester is a big pull for me. I did handle one in a store not long ago and it was ridiculously smooth in comparison to what I usually run. The Uberti I shot was really cool as well and didn't have that much done to it either. Just some minor action work and new springs, no short stroke. The black powder was the best part though. The boom, smoke, and smell was just way too cool.

 

This thread has shown many of the advantages and disadvantages of each, which is what I was hoping for when I started it. The only real downside I can find in the new Winchesters for me is that they won't be available again in these parts until around April-May time frame. That's fine by me. I am still pretty darn happy shooting my '66 until then.

I shoot an Uberti 18 inch straight stock with a C&I 4th gen short stroke in it. I've put about 20,000 rounds through it so far with no issues at all.

 

I handled two new Winchesters last week and they were not even close to mine in terms of the length of the stroke, the smoothness of the actions or triggers. It may be that we have gunsmiths and parts that will allow a stock Winchester to be tuned to run as well or better than a slicked up Uberti, but out of the box the two Winchesters I tried were not ready to shoot in a match.

 

I've heard quite a bit about the Winchesters having higher quality metal, but it's not clear to me how we 'know' this. They haven't been around long enough to see how they hold up to CAS type usage, so how do we know that their metal is better?

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I shoot an Uberti 18 inch straight stock with a C&I 4th gen short stroke in it. I've put about 20,000 rounds through it so far with no issues at all.

 

I handled two new Winchesters last week and they were not even close to mine in terms of the length of the stroke, the smoothness of the actions or triggers. It may be that we have gunsmiths and parts that will allow a stock Winchester to be tuned to run as well or better than a slicked up Uberti, but out of the box the two Winchesters I tried were not ready to shoot in a match.

 

I've heard quite a bit about the Winchesters having higher quality metal, but it's not clear to me how we 'know' this. They haven't been around long enough to see how they hold up to CAS type usage, so how do we know that their metal is better?

So you're saying that your fine tuned, short stroked, race ready Uberti is smoother than a brand new Winchester out of the box? That's not really a fair comparison is it? Shouldn't the comparison be between out of the box guns? I have spoken to folks that work on both and the consensus seems to be that after work the Uberti are still slicker and faster. The Winchesters require less work and are made with tighter tolerances and higher quality out of the box. I've worked on neither so I'm just the messenger.

 

As for the metal, well I don't know this, but plenty of folks that have experience with metallurgy do and they're the ones saying it. I am still new so I can't speak for the past, but I imagine that Rugers faced the same comparison at first and now it's become common knowledge that Rugers hold up better in the long haul. I wonder if that will be the case with the Winchesters in a few years. I guess time will tell. It does seem to me that the most ardent defenders of Uberti are the same folks that have sunk a lot of money in them over the years and are trying to defend themselves by dissing the Winchesters. At least that's my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.

 

I personally don't see anything wrong with liking both. If I had unlimited funds I would have both, or more in every caliber available. I love my '66 and it has very little work done on it, isn't all that smooth and certainly not short stroked. I might do it someday, but a short stroke isn't going to place me at the top of anyone's boards anytime soon. While a stock Winchester might not be ready for you to shoot in a match, I am certain that it will be just fine for me. But I am a looks good first and shoots good second kind of guy so what do I know?

[Monco]

Either one will perform well. I've recently seen a newer Uberti that came with a much nicer and more "Winchester" like satin finish. So maybe Uberti is finally getting away from the high gloss redish stained wood......at least for one of their customers? Yes, the Uberti cartridge tabs can break over time even on a well tuned rifle. In my opinion, assuming the rifle is properly tuned, this seems to happen after more after the shooter becomes faster. I have no idea if the Miroku rifles will suffer the same fate. No biggie. This is a relatively easy one time fix with a small amount of tooling rotating in a mill and a small piece of heat treated & tempered tool steel.

 

Personally, I'm a bit more comfortable abusing an Uberti in competition than I am what I consider a more finely crafted Miroku.....and since I like carbine rifles a little better, my next CAS rifle will likely be made in Italy.

[Captain Bill Burt]

So you're saying that your fine tuned, short stroked, race ready Uberti is smoother than a brand new Winchester out of the box? That's not really a fair comparison is it? Shouldn't the comparison be between out of the box guns? I have spoken to folks that work on both and the consensus seems to be that after work the Uberti are still slicker and faster. The Winchesters require less work and are made with tighter tolerances and higher quality out of the box. I've worked on neither so I'm just the messenger.

 

As for the metal, well I don't know this, but plenty of folks that have experience with metallurgy do and they're the ones saying it. I am still new so I can't speak for the past, but I imagine that Rugers faced the same comparison at first and now it's become common knowledge that Rugers hold up better in the long haul. I wonder if that will be the case with the Winchesters in a few years. I guess time will tell. It does seem to me that the most ardent defenders of Uberti are the same folks that have sunk a lot of money in them over the years and are trying to defend themselves by dissing the Winchesters. At least that's my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.

 

I personally don't see anything wrong with liking both. If I had unlimited funds I would have both, or more in every caliber available. I love my '66 and it has very little work done on it, isn't all that smooth and certainly not short stroked. I might do it someday, but a short stroke isn't going to place me at the top of anyone's boards anytime soon. While a stock Winchester might not be ready for you to shoot in a match, I am certain that it will be just fine for me. But I am a looks good first and shoots good second kind of guy so what do I know?

I'm not really comparing the two so much as pointing out that from the competitive shooters perspective the fact that the Winchester is closer to being ready 'out of the box' doesn't really mean much. Neither gun is match ready out of the box and the consensus 'seems' to be as you said, the Uberti can be taken further with appropriate work. The tolerances can be a mixed blessing as tighter tolerance makes shooting it dirty harder to do. I'm not at all criticizing your perspective, merely adding my 1.5 cents to the conversation. I have nothing at all against the Winchester, if it had the same parts available and the same variety of configurations I would have already bought one.

 

I would never assume that because you're more focused on the looks side you don't know much.

 

When shortstroke kits and competition springs etc. are as readily available for Winchesters as they are for Uberti's and they have an established track record, I'll be in line for one of the straight stock Turnbull editions with an 18 inch half octagon half round barrel fully slicked and race ready. To me that would be the epitome of looking and shooting good.

 

I wish someone with a metallurgy background would come on and give us some details on how and why the Winchester has better metal, and how they know it. That's a selling point that would matter to me.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Either one will perform well. I've recently seen a newer Uberti that came with a much nicer and more "Winchester" like satin finish. So maybe Uberti is finally getting away from the high gloss redish stained wood......at least for one of their customers? Yes, the Uberti cartridge tabs can break over time even on a well tuned rifle. In my opinion, assuming the rifle is properly tuned, this seems to happen after more after the shooter becomes faster. I have no idea if the Miroku rifles will suffer the same fate. No biggie. This is a relatively easy one time fix with a small amount of tooling rotating in a mill and a small piece of heat treated & tempered tool steel.

 

Personally, I'm a bit more comfortable abusing an Uberti in competition than I am what I consider a more finely crafted Miroku.....and since I like carbine rifles a little better, my next CAS rifle will likely be made in Italy.

I want to see pics of that wood. I actually like the reddish stain on my 66. I think the two go together really well. But on the 73, I like the more toned down and brown wood.

 

Captain Bill,

You make really great points. I spoke with the guys from cowboys and indians and they aren't even doing work on the Winchesters because many of the parts aren't available yet. Plus they have worked on tens of thousands of Ubertis and are really good at it. Pioneer will work on them and have a short stroke kit. I would want to take one out and play with it for a bit before doing anything. I am pretty sure that I would be happy with either version, and while I really want a Winchester, if I can't find one relatively soon and a good deal on an Uberti comes along I certainly am not going to pass it up.

[German Jim]

I've got a "real" Winchester 73 in .32-20. Great gun. All orginal, no modifications, runs great and never malfunctions.

 

Showed it to a fellow at a shoot in Michigan once, he could barely lever the action cuz he was so used to slicked up, short stroked, heavily modified Uberties.

 

I thought that was funny.

 

Submitted for your amusement only....

 

Got any pictures? I'd like to get a Winchester '73 in 32WCF one of these days. Need $$. I know Uberti imports them, but I'd like a "real" one. I have an Uberti 38WCF and love it but 32WCF is interestingly different.

[German Jim]

Since we're discussing different 1873's, why not throw into the discussion barrel length. What are people's thoughts on this? Also, although not available yet on the new winchesters, how about opinions on straight stock versus pistol grips.

I'm not opposed to shorter barrels, but I like 24" OCTAGON barrels. I do like the straight stock. Both my rifles (Marlin '94 .45LC & Uberti '73 38WCF) have 24 inch octagon barrels. I just like the old timey look of those barrels.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

There's no "right answer," here. The '73 is the hand's down favorite for MOST of the fastest shooters in SASS. Those virtues which make it a good platform for an experienced shooter, are also true for a less experienced shooter, so it's a wise choice.

 

That said, the three fastest rifle shooters of which I'm aware are Deuce Stevens (check it out on Youtube!) with a MARLIN, and 1873 shooters Smokestack (got to squeeze your name in, buddy!) with a freaking .44-40, and HellHound, from Germany, who I've watched pull off a sub 1.7 second, ten shot string.

 

Get practicing, folks.

 

A tip of the hat to the great shooters who employ them, and to the gunsmiths who have make this kind of performance possible, using these antiquated platforms.

 

FJT

 

Oh, the Badlands Bud borrowed rifle EoT win was using my 3rd gen, 20 inch, straight-stocked 1873. Jim Bowie modified it just before the match, by re-installing the safety mechanism. That's it. He had never shot if before the match. The stock 1897 that Bud cut down the night before he left for EoT, with a pipe cutter - now that's a different story... :-o!!!