Agenda items 1 & 2 - shooting style age subcategories.

[Rye Miles #13621]

While I agree that age based categories should follow the base category, why not allow adjustable sites in all categories?

 

Fillmore

Exactly what I'm thinking'! This not target shooting so adjustable sights give none an "edge" at least in MHO!

 

Rye

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I am with Ruff Cobb as is my club as we discussed the Agenda items this weekend. At first glance the answered to Grizzly Dave's questions should be:

 

1- Yes

2- No

 

However it hasn't been necessarily broke to need fixing. And in another 9 page post we were reminded once again that folks vote with their feet and don't attend matches where sights are required... So the first question put to clubs and then put to the TG's at the convention is:

 

Should this be voted for change? Yes - Proceed to questions 1&2 No - Proceed to the bar

[Ruff Cobb]

At several times in this thread it has been asked just who is responsible for this proposed rule modification. I believe there is a clue to the answer in post #7.

 

There is a passing similarity between this issue and the Grand Dame category recognition fiasco at EOT several years ago. Both are relatively small categories, populated by senior shooters, & are represented by a small number of the SASS population. I have observed that a rule or decision that negatively impacts one of these small categories is often dismissed by some members and trivialized under the excuse as standardization, equitability, correcting a previous oversight, not visually appealing, "fairness", or financially expeditious to a match director.

 

Please remember several issues. In this instance some Senior Duelist is going to have to purchase new revolvers, drop the category, or drop out. Also the same folks that are bringing this to the table terminated the Modern Category. Imagine for a moment the effect of banning pump shotguns & you'll be close to understanding just how disgusted some of us are with this latest rule proposal.

 

When Modern Category which was eliminated by SASS many competitors owned adjustable sight revolvers that they couldn't use. The various Senior categories provided a use for these revolvers. (Anybody ever wonder what the genesis was for the creation of Silver Senior? But I digress.)

 

If one SASS member or Wild Bunch owner can explain to me how this rule change will grow our sport, enhance the SASS image to a prospective member, increase participation in the category, or improve the image & community respect for Senior Duelists I'll start a thread promoting the rule change and be 100% in favor.

A huge plus 1 on Cinch's post above.

[Mordecai Sackett, SASS #5236L]

I would like to see adjustable sights in SG. Our local club allows it and as of right now I’m the only one

shooting in this category for the last couple of years but I have been using vaquero’s in 32/20.

However I would like to use a pair of Ruger Bisleys’ in 41 mag, a pair of rugers with birdheads grip in

41 mag and a pair of ruger buckeye in 32/20 and a pair of rugers w/plow handle grips. I hate not getting

to shoot these other rugers because of the adjustable sight issue.

 

MS

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

The idea of having the shooting-style category coming first makes sense to me. That said, I see that there will be opposition by folks with adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

How about a compromise?

 

The shooting-style requirements are followed when subdividing by age, except that adjustable-sight revolvers are allowed. That way, the "purists" (for lack of a better name) can shoot FC, GF, Duelist, CC in those categories with fixed-sight revolvers. However, when sub-divided by age (this will likely be Senior or older), allow the adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Grizzly Dave]

At several times in this thread it has been asked just who is responsible for this proposed rule modification. I believe there is a clue to the answer in post #7.

 

There is a passing similarity between this issue and the Grand Dame category recognition fiasco at EOT several years ago. Both are relatively small categories, populated by senior shooters, & are represented by a small number of the SASS population. I have observed that a rule or decision that negatively impacts one of these small categories is often dismissed by some members and trivialized under the excuse as standardization, equitability, correcting a previous oversight, not visually appealing, "fairness", or financially expeditious to a match director.

 

Please remember several issues. In this instance some Senior Duelist is going to have to purchase new revolvers, drop the category, or drop out. Also the same folks that are bringing this to the table terminated the Modern Category. Imagine for a moment the effect of banning pump shotguns & you'll be close to understanding just how disgusted some of us are with this latest rule proposal.

 

When Modern Category which was eliminated by SASS many competitors owned adjustable sight revolvers that they couldn't use. The various Senior categories provided a use for these revolvers. (Anybody ever wonder what the genesis was for the creation of Silver Senior? But I digress.)

 

If one SASS member or Wild Bunch owner can explain to me how this rule change will grow our sport, enhance the SASS image to a prospective member, increase participation in the category, or improve the image & community respect for Senior Duelists I'll start a thread promoting the rule change and be 100% in favor.

A huge plus 1 on Cinch's post above.

 

Ruff, I would say it's exactly the opposite that made it to where adjustable sight pistols were allowed in SD in the first place. Someone with clout wanted it, and so it was. It makes no sense to allow them in one senior shooting style category and not another.

 

I'm not against adjustable sight pistols in SD, I am against category requirements that are different between age broken out categories. Right now adjustable sights are allowed in SD but not in SG. There is no continuity.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Guys (and girls),

This proposal is NOT about adjustable sights. Do not lose the forest for the trees.

It is about defining the category either as AGE based first or CATEGORY based first.

 

The reason we are so focused on pistol sights is the discussion surrounds Senior Duelist - which currently is AGE based first.

And the discussion (and common appearance of Senior Gunfighter {Yes, we are all aware that SGF is not an official category}) - which most clubs are offering as CATEGORY first.

In the limited scope of looking at these two offering - it would seem the debate is solely about pistol sights.

It is not.

 

With the ongoing aging of SASS - more and more categories are going to expand toward "Senior" this and "Senior" that.

So what happens when the first match director offers Senior Classic Cowboy?

 

If it is AGE based first (as is currently the situation in Senior Duelist)

Instead of being limited to 40 cal rimmed cartridge and above pistols - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may shoot ANY SASS legal caliber.

Instead of being limited to a 1873 or earlier 40+ caliber rifle - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may shoot any SASS legal rifle.

Instead of being limited to a external hammered double barrel, single barrel or lever action shotgun - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may use any SASS legal shotgun.

 

So if you shoot Senior Classic Cowboy

You may use adjustable sighted 9mm Rugers

A 32 caliber Marlin Cowboy

A 1897 pump shotgun

And to top it off - if you really want to go by the definition of age based FIRST - they could shoot their pistol two handed supported.

 

This is the slippery slope that codifying the rules will avoid,

Establishing the requirement to abide by the rules of the CATEGORY first and then simply divide the CATEGORY by age will ensure that an age division of an existing category does not transform the category into something unrecognizable.

 

Question two would simply bring Senior Duelist into line as it should have been all along.

But even if you choose to leave Senior Duelist alone as a aberration - We must be proactive going forward to limit those exceptions to a single category.

[Pit Bull Tex]

Category first then age if I had a vote.

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

 

Question two would simply bring Senior Duelist into line as it should have been all along.

But even if you choose to leave Senior Duelist alone as a aberration - We must be proactive going forward to limit those exceptions to a single category.

The forest isn't included in the language... You are jumping to the 2015 Convention

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

The idea of having the shooting-style category coming first makes sense to me. That said, I see that there will be opposition by folks with adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

How about a compromise?

 

The shooting-style requirements are followed when subdividing by age, except that adjustable-sight revolvers are allowed. That way, the "purists" (for lack of a better name) can shoot FC, GF, Duelist, CC in those categories with fixed-sight revolvers. However, when sub-divided by age (this will likely be Senior or older), allow the adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Anyone care to give an opinion on this?

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Hi Folks,

 

The idea of having the shooting-style category coming first makes sense to me. That said, I see that there will be opposition by folks with adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

How about a compromise?

 

The shooting-style requirements are followed when subdividing by age, except that adjustable-sight revolvers are allowed. That way, the "purists" (for lack of a better name) can shoot FC, GF, Duelist, CC in those categories with fixed-sight revolvers. However, when sub-divided by age (this will likely be Senior or older), allow the adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Allie, I guess I didn't pay close enough attention, until this came up last year I thought that was the way it was. Maybe because adjustable sights were allowed in Senior Duelist I thought they would also be allowed in Senior Gunfighter. I am not now and have never been naive enough to think I could shoot Duelist with a 2-handed grip but because of the ruling after Modern was eliminated that adjustable sights could be used in all age-based categories I assumed that when you put Senior in front of any category it is now age based.

 

Thanks

Randy

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie, I guess I didn't pay close enough attention, until this came up last year I thought that was the way it was. Maybe because adjustable sights were allowed in Senior Duelist I thought they would also be allowed in Senior Gunfighter. I am not now and have never been naive enough to think I could shoot Duelist with a 2-handed grip but because of the ruling after Modern was eliminated that adjustable sights could be used in all age-based categories I assumed that when you put Senior in front of any category it is now age based.

 

Thanks

Randy

Maybe the format should be changed to Duelist/Senior, Duelist/Elder..., Gunfighter/Senior...

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS There are other problems like age based allows holsters that are not allowed in GF...

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

PS There are other problems like age based allows holsters that are not allowed in GF...

As you mentioned earlier I don't have any problem with any category rules, but once you're a Senior I don't see the problem with adjustable sight revolvers.

 

Thanks

Randy

[Guest Cinch, SASS#29433]

I am with you fella's

[Grizzly Dave]

Hi Folks,

 

The idea of having the shooting-style category coming first makes sense to me. That said, I see that there will be opposition by folks with adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

How about a compromise?

 

The shooting-style requirements are followed when subdividing by age, except that adjustable-sight revolvers are allowed. That way, the "purists" (for lack of a better name) can shoot FC, GF, Duelist, CC in those categories with fixed-sight revolvers. However, when sub-divided by age (this will likely be Senior or older), allow the adjustable-sight revolvers.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

Anyone care to give an opinion on this?

 

The way the agenda item is stated, it seems it is setting the terms by which any possible future senior category divisions would hold to. By changing that now to allow adjustable sights in senior divisions of shooting style categories, senior gunfighter would also have to allow it, as well as senior anything else like CC, Frontiersman, or whatever that might maybe get added in the future.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Guys (and girls),

This proposal is NOT about adjustable sights. Do not lose the forest for the trees.

It is about defining the category either as AGE based first or CATEGORY based first.

 

The reason we are so focused on pistol sights is the discussion surrounds Senior Duelist - which currently is AGE based first.

And the discussion (and common appearance of Senior Gunfighter {Yes, we are all aware that SGF is not an official category}) - which most clubs are offering as CATEGORY first.

In the limited scope of looking at these two offering - it would seem the debate is solely about pistol sights.

It is not.

 

With the ongoing aging of SASS - more and more categories are going to expand toward "Senior" this and "Senior" that.

So what happens when the first match director offers Senior Classic Cowboy?

 

If it is AGE based first (as is currently the situation in Senior Duelist)

Instead of being limited to 40 cal rimmed cartridge and above pistols - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may shoot ANY SASS legal caliber.

Instead of being limited to a 1873 or earlier 40+ caliber rifle - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may shoot any SASS legal rifle.

Instead of being limited to a external hammered double barrel, single barrel or lever action shotgun - the AGE based Classic Cowboy may use any SASS legal shotgun.

 

So if you shoot Senior Classic Cowboy

You may use adjustable sighted 9mm Rugers

A 32 caliber Marlin Cowboy

A 1897 pump shotgun

And to top it off - if you really want to go by the definition of age based FIRST - they could shoot their pistol two handed supported.

 

This is the slippery slope that codifying the rules will avoid,

Establishing the requirement to abide by the rules of the CATEGORY first and then simply divide the CATEGORY by age will ensure that an age division of an existing category does not transform the category into something unrecognizable.

 

Question two would simply bring Senior Duelist into line as it should have been all along.

But even if you choose to leave Senior Duelist alone as a aberration - We must be proactive going forward to limit those exceptions to a single category.

 

Thank you for further explaining the reasoning behind the proposal.

When reading the ENTIRE agenda item, one should note that there are MANY distinctions for those categories in question that are NOT related to "adjustable-sight revolvers"...and that are NOT required for the AGE-BASED category participants.

Only a few examples are given...this post expands the idea with a specific circumstance that MIGHT be applicable if there are no standards in place moving forward.

[Oklahomabound]

I support the change to shooting style/costume category governs period; not first with age second--which confuses the question. It just needs to be that the style/costume requirements govern period. Further category division by age can be done by the Match Director--any age related requirements do not govern period (are not considered; are not applied in any fashion)

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The agenda item is written the way the WB approved it after numerous discussions at TG meetings throughout the past year.

 

The only age-related considerations would be that the shooter qualify for the age subcat by virtue of DOB.

 

Lets not start "amending" this beyond recognition before it even gets to the Summit.

[Ramblin Gambler]

I think it should be the other way around from what most of you seem to be saying. The base category should be first, and then it should be modified by the age category. Those modifications should include things to make it easier for seasoned shooters. Some things that should be considered:

Holster requirements - As we get older, all of us might not be able to draw from certain types of holsters.

Caliber - Smaller calibers are cheaper and the recoil is easier to handle.

Sights - If adjustable sights help you see them better, then let it happen. In fact, I think we should consider relaxing the rules about front sight color too.

 

I think the line should be drawn closer to the thing that makes the category unique. No matter how old you get, if you can't handle a gun 1 handed, there's no reason to be shooting gunfighter or duelist because that's the defining characteristic of those cats. Same would go for BW or Classic, if you can't wear all the flair, then just shoot with the regular folks.

 

I also think the exceptions should be on a sliding scale of sorts. For instance, 49ers probably shouldn't get any exceptions to the base category (49 don't seem that old to me. Plus, I heard 50 is the new 30 and a couple years back 30 was the new 20, so that means 50 is the new 20 now, right? Some of you thought you were old goats but it turns out you're not even old enough to drink!) Removing holster requirements should probably only be done in the top age categories. I think that if you do it this way, you'll only have people taking advantage of the lesser requirements if and when they need to.

 

As for the blackhawks, I believe that back in the early days of cowboy shooting, our pistol options were pretty much either a blackhawk or an old colt, as ruger was the only company still making single action revolvers. As such, the blackhawk holds a special place in my heart, and for the old timers who were actually shooting back then, it's probably even more special. So, that seems like a good reason to allow them in age categories where the base category doesn't allow them.

[Rootin Tootin]

I shoot Senior Duelist, currently with NM Blackhawks with Jimmy Spurs action work. I will continue to shoot Senior Duelist with whatever gun they approve, but some may not be as fortunate as I am to change out expensive guns.

 

I HAVE SOME MAJOR CONCERNS ABOUT THESE RULE OPTIONS!!!!

 

For starters. Those that say "you can still shoot B-western" assume the senior has a correct rifle for B-western and a double drop holster........That may not be the case. To do so may cost as much as changing the pistols......

 

Those that say shoot in the senior classes assume a one handed senior shooter can compete on a level playing field with a two handed shooter...This may or may not be the case. There are exceptions but for the most part this is not likely

 

So here are the options, the Senior Duelist if he/she is 1. not financially able to change pistols or other equipment, or 2. not equipped with the correct rifle and holsters, or 3. has chosen his class based on the level of completion he wants to face or 4. is not willing to become a 2 handed shooter to compete then he/she will most likely leave the sport.

 

I question the reasoning behind this rule change that has the potential to put fixed income folks in a position to chose between staying and investing in new equipment; changing shooting categories; changing shooting styles or JUST QUITING

 

I for one can miss as fast with either fixed or adjustable sights once they are dialed in. They get dial in much like one dials in a fixed site gun with blade and notch adjustment. So once dialed in adjustable site guns offer no real advantage.

 

SO WE REALLY NEED TO ASK THE QUESTIONS.......WHAT IS THE REASONING BEHIND THE RULE CHANGE?? ...and DO WE REALLY WANT PEOPLE TO CHOSE BETWEEN 1. CHANGING EITHER STYLE OR EQUIPMENT; OR 2. JUST LEAVE THE SPORT........

 

I hope the rule change isn't just cosmetic.............

 

Respectfully ...........Rootin Tootin

[Colt Walker 45]

I would hope that people would not just leave the sport due to needing to change categories. When the modern cat was eliminated I had to go to other guns/ style to shoot so I did. I understand the hardship of not having money to buy different guns but let's not forget all the other catagories that are availBle to shoot in. I also do not understand why adjustable sights are outlawed in other catagories( not including classic) as it would make little if any difference to the majority of people I have asked. If the restriction of Blackhawks was changed, then you would only be looking at age based.gunfighter is still 2 hands , duelist is still 1 hand only, b western is still required to have certain equipment , etc. you would only be looking at the requirements of the cat then as all other requirements would still all apply with the pistols as a non issue in regards to adjustable/non- adjustable sights.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I know someone who quit shooting with SASS when Modern was eliminated. I was happy to see him go!

[Ramblin Gambler]

What was the modern category?

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

I used to shoot CC. The last couple of times I tried shooting duelist style I ended up with severe tendinitis. Doc says nothing he can do about it so I don't shoot CC anymore. Age will catch up with all of us if we live long enough.

 

So, I support category first with all of the rules that apply to a category. Next comes age. If the time comes that you cannot shoot a category there are others that will work.

 

Of course, I am not sure how much this really matters. I was put into a different category after a match was complete so that there would be enough shooters to be SASS legal and get a buckle. So, all of this is a bit contrived. The match director will do what s/he is going to do.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

What was the modern category?

Before we added Cowboy and Wrangler, we had Traditional and Modern categories. The only difference between the two was that Modern allowed adjustable-sight revolvers.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

What was the modern category?

 

EQUIPMENT & SHOOTER CLASSIFICATIONS

Cowboy shooters are divided into three categories: blackpowder, traditional and modern. A shooter's classification is determined by the type of "six-gun" he or she uses. Originals and reproductions of firearms manufactured during the early to late 1800's by Colt, Winchester, Remington, Smith & Wesson, Marlin, Sharps, Henry, etcetera are allowed in SASS competitions so long as they are in safe shooting condition.

REVOLVERS:

Frontier Blackpowder - Percussion or cartridge, single action revolvers of original manufacture prior to 1896 and reproductions thereof.

Must be .36 caliber or larger.

Adjustable sights are not allowed.

Blackpowder, pyrodex or golden powder propel lants must be used in all loads.

NOTE: Blackpowder competitors must also use blackpowder, pyrodex or golden powder propellants in their rifle and shotgun loads in all main matches.

The Ruger Old Army Blackpowder, because of its design and target sights must compete in the modern category.

Traditional - Single action cartridge revolver, manufactured prior to 1896, or reproduction thereof.

Must be .32 caliber or larger.

Must have non-adjustable, traditional sights.

Must use smokeless propellant.

Examples: Colt SAA, Smith & Wesson American or Russian, Remington Models 75 or 90, Bisleys, and their reproductions.

Modern - Any single action cartridge revolver of at least .32 caliber with adjustable sights.

 

SHB 1989

 

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Classic Cowboy has no age distinctions...leave it alone.

 

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot the larger calibers.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot duelist or double duelist.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot a hammered double.

You have to be WILLIN' to dress in accordance to the accoutrement rules.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot against anyone else who is WILLIN'

 

Classic Cowboys would appreciate it if you'd be WILLIN' to leave the entire category out of your discussions about age....we are ageless and WILLIN' to stay that way for the unforeseeable future.

[Griff]

If'n #2 remains as is, then I think we should push for a "Senior Frontiersman" category along the same lines as "Senior Duelist"; that way I can shoot my suppository pistols in a death-like squaw-grip fashion.

 

And if THAT makes sense to you, there's no hope.

[J-BAR #18287]

Classic Cowboy has no age distinctions...leave it alone.

 

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot the larger calibers.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot duelist or double duelist.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot a hammered double.

You have to be WILLIN' to dress in accordance to the accoutrement rules.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot against anyone else who is WILLIN'

 

Classic Cowboys would appreciate it if you'd be WILLIN' to leave the entire category out of your discussions about age....we are ageless and WILLIN' to stay that way for the unforeseeable future.

 

 

Amen.

 

Ditto for Frontiersman.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Classic Cowboy has no age distinctions...leave it alone.

 

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot the larger calibers.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot duelist or double duelist.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot a hammered double.

You have to be WILLIN' to dress in accordance to the accoutrement rules.

You have to be WILLIN' to shoot against anyone else who is WILLIN'

 

Classic Cowboys would appreciate it if you'd be WILLIN' to leave the entire category out of your discussions about age....we are ageless and WILLIN' to stay that way for the unforeseeable future.

It is not about what YOU are willin' to do.

 

The issue is that until the rules are clarified - the moment ANY category (including Classic Cowboy) that has specific equipment and style restrictions gets an age based designation added to it - ALL the restrictions within the category are over ruled by the age based allowances.

 

If you want to protect categories from becoming unrecognizable - including Classic Cowboy, then you have to support a YES vote on question 1.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

It is not about what YOU are willin' to do.

 

The issue is that until the rules are clarified - the moment ANY category (including Classic Cowboy) that has specific equipment and style restrictions gets an age based designation added to it - ALL the restrictions within the category are over ruled by the age based allowances.

 

If you want to protect categories from becoming unrecognizable - including Classic Cowboy, then you have to support a YES vote on question 1.

Apparently I didn't make myself clear. Anyone and everyone who shoots Classic Cowboy category....there...that oughta do it. We Classic Cowboys plan on being AGELESS for some time to come.

 

Age based categories have been an abomination in the eyes of God from the beginning. The whole concept was conceived in a dark, deep, wet, hot place by none other than the devil hissownself. Ever since all y'all who conspired with him have been fixin' ta fix it. How's that working for ya?

I'll thank you to just leave the one category that ain't broke from your fixin'. Seems you have plenty to keep busy with elsewhere.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Apparently I didn't make myself clear. Anyone and everyone who shoots Classic Cowboy category....there...that oughta do it. We Classic Cowboys plan on being AGELESS for some time to come.

 

Age based categories have been an abomination in the eyes of God from the beginning. The whole concept was conceived in a dark, deep, wet, hot place by none other than the devil hissownself. Ever since all y'all who conspired with him have been fixin' ta fix it. How's that working for ya?

I'll thank you to just leave the one category that ain't broke from your fixin'. Seems you have plenty to keep busy with elsewhere.

 

 

 

See one, and only one change I think they should make to CC

Frontiersman I think needs the same change.

 

I know. I don't shoot either so butt out.

 

 

But I feel BOTH categories only change should be that they allow you to

shoot GFer and Duelist in both of them.

Don't see why GFer is not allowed in either one of those.

 

But that's just me.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

But I feel BOTH categories only change should be that they allow you to

shoot GFer and Duelist in both of them.

Don't see why GFer is not allowed in either one of those.

 

But that's just me.

We're probably lucky that they don't make us turn full sideways and put one hand behind our back? There are so many good reasons for what you suggest that I have wondered the same. Yet, it seems whenever the SASSS'SSS get to fixin' the whole thing ends up with the cart in front of the horse.

 

I'd support minimum PF as well as any unsupported shooting style including Outlaw. BRING IT! Plus, I'd get a raging kick out of watching T-Bone, Cowhand, Dragon Hill Dave, Ghost etc. shoot it that way!

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

We're probably lucky that they don't make us turn full sideways and put one hand behind our back? There are so many good reasons for what you suggest that I have wondered the same. Yet, it seems whenever the SASSS'SSS get to fixin' the whole thing ends up with the cart in front of the horse.

 

I'd support minimum PF as well as any unsupported shooting style including Outlaw. BRING IT! Plus, I'd get a raging kick out of watching T-Bone, Cowhand, Dragon Hill Dave, Ghost etc. shoot it that way!

 

Probably end up with somebody wondering why CC isn't shooting all blackpowder too. I've wondered that, but...

 

I'm not really in a hurry to start loading blackpowder.

 

And I like shooting CC so...