Texas Jack Daniels Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hi all, This is for my wife to shoot. So I am looking for comfortable loads. I am looking for a TRAILBOSS load to use for .45 cowboy brass with 160g bullet. I found some .45 acp loads for 180g that go 3.5 to 5.0g. I was thinking about 3.8g? Anybody have any experience or thoughts on this? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan Disorderly Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 New here myself, but I don't think it's permitted to discuss actual loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The .45 Cowboy is just a .45 ACP with a rim. So you can use ACP data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The .45 Cowboy is just a .45 ACP with a rim. So you can use ACP data. Then why don't they call it the .45 Auto Rim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Then why don't they call it the .45 Auto Rim? The auto rim has a thicker rim. It was designed to work in a double action revolver without half moon clips. 45 acp uses half or full moon clips in the same revolvers. The acp and a clip equal the thickness of a auto rim rim. The auto rim won't work in a 45 colt revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sabre Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Then why don't they call it the .45 Auto Rim? Cuz it's a different case. The Cowboy Special is a 45 Colt case with ACP length. It can be used in 45 Colt chambers and also the Ruger SA ACP cylinder. The Auto Rim case is an ACP case with a very thick rim, designed for use in ACP double action revolvers with the cylinder rebated at the rear for moon clips. You can't make CS cases from AR cases because the back of the AR rim is heavily chamfered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrswanson1 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yup Yup, my bad. Didn't think about the rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I love'm. They load easy, less bulky to pack and burn light loads of fast burning powder more efficient. I use the same bullets, primers and powder for C45S and 45 Colt. It takes 5g to get a clean, and consistent load in C45S were I have to go to 7g in 45 Colt. (I ain't telling what powder so I don't feel I'm breaking any no-tale rules.) The loads correspond to starting load for ACP for C45S and 45 Colt published in Lyman manual. I don't have a chronograph so I don't know if the C45S load is slower than the 45 Colt. I'm feel that it is, but not by much. I shot the C45S in my handgun and 45 Colt in Marlin 1894. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Regarding 160 gr loads. Your thinking in the right direction. PM if you want! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollifer A. Dollar Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 That powder charge you are thinking about is great with 160 gn bullets, shoots like a 38 but bangs like a 45. I never tried it with 180 gn bullets. Holler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck N Bronco Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Does anyone know if there is any worry about pressure limits with the C45S brass? If loaded to 45ACP that looks to me like about an 18,000 to 20,000psi even with light loads. While my Ubertis and other Colts all limit out at 14,000psi. I would like to try the Cowboy Brass, but have been held back by not knowing what loads to try that wouldn’t exceed the pressure limits. Am I correct in assuming C45S brass is only for Ruger revolvers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 TEXAS JD (as a Tennessean, I always prefer to capitalize TEXAS, ifn ya know what I mean). anyhow, I use the C45S in my Ruger Sheriff model .45's. I have used the 160, 170 and 180 with CLAYS powder and I will PM you my load info. My opinion, one of THE BEST all around bullets for this is probably the 170 grainer, of which I get mine from Lone Star Bullets down in your next of the woods. I do have a Marlin set up for the C45S but I don't use it in SASS. Its my 'Zombie' short rifle with a 16.25" Octagonal barrel and my ammo is the C45S with 185 grain Gold Dot HP loaded up to equal the .45 Super load. Very efficient in that short rifle. PM coming your way with load info. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkeep Casey Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I do have a Marlin set up for the C45S but I don't use it in SASS. Its my 'Zombie' short rifle with a 16.25" Octagonal barrel and my ammo is the C45S with 185 grain Gold Dot HP loaded up to equal the .45 Super load. Very efficient in that short rifle. PM coming your way with load info. ..........Widder Widder, Now that is a cool little gun! How many 45cs's will the 16"er hold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Hey Barkeeper, it'll hold 10 of the C45S loaded with 185 grain Gold Dot HP's. If I don't forget it, I'll bring it tomorrow and let you check it out. Come and witness my destruction of The Purly Man..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 BNB, the references to 45 ACP were more intentioned as to being of similar design than load data, which was suggested as a starting reference. The loads that you use in 45 cowboy special typically are with lighter lead bullets at a lesser velocity than that of hardball FMJ 45 ACP. And don't start worrying about the neck thickness of cutoff colt brass, as my chronograph says that it has no influence on velocity either! Just My 2 cents worth. Remember....... Your results will vary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck N Bronco Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Thank You Captain. I have been looking at charts of 45ACP loads using the minimum Trail Boss with a 200grain LRNFP. The velocity is low, but the pressure is above limits so I have hesitated to place an order for the C45S brass. If you have a load that you would recommend and would be kind enough to PM it to me, I would GREATLY appreciate it and will try to find a way to repay the kindness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Does anyone know if there is any worry about pressure limits with the C45S brass? If loaded to 45ACP that looks to me like about an 18,000 to 20,000psi even with light loads. While my Ubertis and other Colts all limit out at 14,000psi. I would like to try the Cowboy Brass, but have been held back by not knowing what loads to try that wouldn’t exceed the pressure limits. Am I correct in assuming C45S brass is only for Ruger revolvers? [/size] I checked my Lyman Cast Bullet handbook and the load I'm using lists 7,700 C.U.P. I think I'm safe in saying that there are no commercial loads available for the C45S so it's up to the reloader to load to safe levels. And it makes no sense to load to full house pressures when the goal is to produce as light a load as possible. While I'm not sure it's a perfect answer to the strength of the Uberti revolver but it is available in 45 ACP with conversion cylinder. It well may be the 45 ACP chambers are tighter and thus smaller - thus maybe the walls are thicker but it would be only a very slight amount. It could be they use a different material on ACP cylinders. But I would expect them to be the same. Back when I was young and liked to push things, I loaded and shot a lot of "Elmer Keith" loads in my 45 Colt Cattleman. We both survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 The original Adirondack Jack website advised using .45 ACP data. Not all .45 ACP is designed to operate 1911s. There are plenty of .45 ACP revolvers and data for lighter loads. The brass is basically a .45 ACP WITH a .45 Colt rim. It is not merely cut down .45 Colt brass. As you shorten .45 Colt brass the case wall gets thicker toward the bottom and it is often hard to seat 250 grain bullets in cut down brass. (160s and 180s work fine.) The ACP brass has less taper in the case walls so it can load 250 grain bullets. Jack's original website is gone and the new one does not have loading data. Here is a discussion by Jack before the new brass even was commercially available. http://forums.handloads.com/archive/forum_posts.asp?TID=10022&KW=Cowboy+.45+Special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck N Bronco Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Thank You Warden, I wish I knew what 7,700CUP is in relation to PSI. Do you have any idea how 7,700CUP might relate to 14,000psi? Hodgdon, which is a great reloading site, shows 9,200CUP for the “smallest” Trail Boss ACP load with a 200 grain LSWC. It is a very mild load for a 1911 and probably would struggle to work the slide, but I am uncertain about feeding a steady diet of them thru my Uberti Runnin Iron revolvers. I have never seen a way of comparing CUP to PSI……. and my loading manuals and Hodgdon’s site list ACP load pressures in CUP, while they list 45Colt in PSI. It makes it impossible for me to compare the two pressures. I will just have to wing it and see how it goes. Larsen, Thank You for the link to the other forum and the discussion on case thickness. Going to a lighter bullet will reduce the pressures, so I will try 180s and 160s and cut down maybe a dozen cases for testing. If that works out I will give Miss Cubbie a call and order a supply of the C45S. My goal is to cut-down the amount of powder I burn, simply because it is so hard to get nowadays. I also like to get a solid clean burn, and I feel I need a coal shovel sized load to get a decent burn rate in the Colt cases. I like a stout recoil, I am just trying to stretch my powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 All's I know is C.U.P. stands for Copper Units of Pressure and indicates the method used to measue by how much a copper pellet is crushed. I never knew there is also a Lead Units of Pressure. Further reading. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_units_of_pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Speaking of coal shovel full of powder, my last batch of loads were powered by FF black powder. The C45S case fills up to slightly compressed level with considerable less powder than the 45 Colt. The recoil is quite comfortable. Less than my light smokeless loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 This is an easy question to answer....Just fill the case almost full of BP (or suitable sub), seat bullet to get a small amount of compression and get to makin smoke and loud "CLANG"! Been shootin them for year in mu Ruger Revs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Speaking of coal shovel full of powder, my last batch of loads were powered by FF black powder. The C45S case fills up to slightly compressed level with considerable less powder than the 45 Colt. The recoil is quite comfortable. Less than my light smokeless loads. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck N Bronco Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Well Warden, I have learned two things here. (1) Uberti 45Colt cylinders aren’t materially different from their ACP type cylinders, so both should handle the same pressures – which is what you said in an earlier post. (2) 14,000PSI turns out to equal approximately 15,900CUP. I had thought that CUP would be a much lower number than PSI, which indeed becomes the situation but only when approaching much higher rifle pressures. It appears certain that by using the ACP “minimum” or start load for Trail Boss, or virtually any powder we use for our game, a steady diet won’t cause undue wear. (such as pounding the cylinder star into the breech recoil shield) My estimation is that with these C45S cases I should just about cut my powder use in half, or pretty close to it. That means I can shoot twice as much now!!!! And when my smokeless runs out, I will definitely take your suggestion and look to load those C45S cases with holy black. They look to be perfect for BP use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex M Rugers #6621 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 It is possible to over-think some of this stuff. If you shoot enough CAS-type loads to batter your sixguns the way you describe , in a serious practice regemen , you should be getting up to Jerry Miculek skills. Keep 'em smokin' , Rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Fiddler SASS Life 10127 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I'm working up some loads for these cases. If you're interested, send me an email -tex fiddler joepro@proandsons.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Adirondack Jack gave the cowboy game a great gift in the form of the Cowboy 45 Special. Adios Sgt. Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Adirondack Jack gave the cowboy game a great gift in the form of the Cowboy 45 Special. Adios Sgt. Jake Yes indeed. And he also gave some VERY innovative stuff for some 73 rifles to help work great for the C45S. PLUS, lets not forget his Barnstormer bullets. And he got SPUR involved by setting up a Spur Special short stroked .45 to feed the C45S. AND personally, the C45S cartridge intrigued me enough to create the WiddermAJik, which is the Marlin 1894 set up for the C45S without having a short stroke modification. The 'AJ' is capitalized to stand for Adirondack Jack, in case anyone wants to know. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck N Bronco Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 I'm working up some loads for these cases. If you're interested, send me an email -tex fiddler joepro@proandsons.com E-mail sent. Thank You Tex, I look forward to your information and taking advantage of these new cases as soon as I receive them! Much obliged, Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strongbox, SASS#19154 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Widder----Captain---if you have some cowboy loads for the 45---I sure would appreciate that info---I am shooting short barrel Piettas and have ordered 1000 rounds of the short stuff for myself and 3 other SASS members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Strongbox, I've sent you a PM with my favorite C45Spl load. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 Am I correct in assuming C45S brass is only for Ruger revolvers? Nope, not at all. With care, will work just fine in any .45 Colt revolver. Just stay under the maximum SAAMI pressures to which all "non-Ruger" .45 Colt ammo is produced. However, loading without a published reference book with several loads in it is a little bit of the advanced handloading art. If you don't know what high pressure looks like in a fired cartridge, then find a real good loader to help you sort out a safe load for your revolvers. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted August 4, 2014 Share Posted August 4, 2014 I've been shooting cowboy 45 special loads in a set of 1860 Pitas converted with Kirst cylinders for near three years. I have many thousands of 170 grain Big Lube bullets over a mild charge of Trail Boss. Guns are still in one piece. Love the C45s. Even better with Black Powder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Daniels Posted September 5, 2014 Author Share Posted September 5, 2014 I want to say thank you to everyone who posted and PM'ed me on this topic. This was all great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 One nice thing about bp loads compared to smokeless loads is the bp push for recoil whereas the smokeless hits hard and at once, like an explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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