There seems to be misunderstanding about awarding a P

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

Just as an FYI for everyone.......I know Big Whiskey, we shoot together with the Eas'dern Shore Renegades in MD's eastern shore. He's a "stand up" guy, a pretty good shooter too and I know he's trying real hard to correct any mistakes he's made as a TO., thats why he asked his questions. I have NO DOUBT he has learned from this and will strive to be the best TO he can be; just like the rest of us do. I would NOT have any issue with him behind me with the timer.

 

That said.......(serious mode OFF)...............Whiskey, enough "stirring the pot" for one thread pard, Put down the bottle and walk away from the keyboard........WALK AWAY PARD......RUN FOREST...RUN ..hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

see ya next month pard. we'll discuss things then

 

Red Eye

[Big Whiskey]

You're supposed to be watching the gun, not hits and misses.

I agree with that 100%. I'm watching the muzzle, counting rounds that leave the muzzle, listening for squibs. etc. If a T.O. is doing that, how can he be so adament that the shooter got a P, for shooting out of sequence, that he alone can make that call ? That is simply what I have been trying to touch on for two days.

[Big Whiskey]

Just as an FYI for everyone.......I know Big Whiskey, we shoot together with the Eas'dern Shore Renegades in MD's eastern shore. He's a "stand up" guy, a pretty good shooter too and I know he's trying real hard to correct any mistakes he's made as a TO., thats why he asked his questions. I have NO DOUBT he has learned from this and will strive to be the best TO he can be; just like the rest of us do. I would NOT have any issue with him behind me with the timer.

 

That said.......(serious mode OFF)...............Whiskey, enough "stirring the pot" for one thread pard, Put down the bottle and walk away from the keyboard........WALK AWAY PARD......RUN FOREST...RUN ..hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

see ya next month pard

 

Red Eye

LOL OK, Sorry Red-Eye, I didnt get it before last post. Good everybody. LOL

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Over a year ago, at an above monthly, a good shooter came to me and said that somehow he had not unloaded one of his pistols at the un-loading table. Seems someone was working on a malfunction, both he and ULO were distracted. We had just moved to next stage, I told him that would be a SDQ. He then said, that this had happened to him some times back at another match, but the TO, ROs, and even MDs had a conference in which it was decided that the shooters handbook says that , that a SDQ would be given if it was discovered at the loading table, and would then fall back to previous stage as a SDQ. But since he had discovered it before arriving at the next stage loading table, the SDQ was erased.

I informed him that not following unloading table procedures, was a SDQ, and was so listed under penalties of SDQs. He did not follow unloading table procedures, and left with firearm not verified and released by ULO.

So sometimes, even the best make mistakes, or don't read everything in the rule books. I'm surprised this isn't in the shooters handbook more clearly.

I know that day, I probable wasn't his most popular TOs. MT

[Cactus Whiskey, SASS #75905]

To Everyone

I wish I could get the majority of shooters to read the shooters handbook. Good luck with RO courses. We had an RO 1&2 course last weekend. Seven people showedup only 1 had never taken the course before. Yet the same people that didn't come are the ones who will argue with you on calls. Big Whiskey won't argue any call you make. I know this for a fact.

Red Eye come on over to Geezers if you can.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Ok, so I'm in the best spot to catch safety intractions, I'm in the best spot to observe the shooter "possibly" shoot out of sequence, if they do and the spotters do not catch it, I have the authority to penalize them, I'm in the best spot to catch an edge shot, No authority to help shooter with penalty except to hopefully point out to spotters. Hmmm

You sure do like to stir the pot don't you. You already knew the answer didn't you. If you did not then it is a moot point since you should not be operating the timer, until you get some RO courses or refreshers, as these issues are all discussed in them. You may not like the rules but you have to follow them.

[Warhorse]

Just as an FYI for everyone.......I know Big Whiskey, we shoot together with the Eas'dern Shore Renegades in MD's eastern shore. He's a "stand up" guy, a pretty good shooter too and I know he's trying real hard to correct any mistakes he's made as a TO., thats why he asked his questions. I have NO DOUBT he has learned from this and will strive to be the best TO he can be; just like the rest of us do. I would NOT have any issue with him behind me with the timer.

 

That said.......(serious mode OFF)...............Whiskey, enough "stirring the pot" for one thread pard, Put down the bottle and walk away from the keyboard........WALK AWAY PARD......RUN FOREST...RUN ..hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

see ya next month pard. we'll discuss things then

 

Red Eye

I, too, shoot frequently with Big Whiskey and totally agreee with Red Eye Kid. BW is one of the best workers at any match he attends and is truly one of the good guys. He really pays attention in whatever role he is serving and, in the rare case where he may be wrong in a call, will readily admit to it if anyone else can point out an error. Frankly, I have only seen one instance of that.

 

I was afraid that this thread was "going south" fast but, to my surprise and gratification, it turned around and I think that is finally came out OK. I think we all got a little education as a result. I certainly did.

 

Warhorse

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

So, as I mentioned earlier, what about the posse member who sees a procedural but the counters and the TO don't?

Howdy Jack, it's the shooters lucky day, the peanut gallery has no say. Only one or more of the three spotters, or the TO can call a P. Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Shooting Bull]

I agree with that 100%. I'm watching the muzzle, counting rounds that leave the muzzle, listening for squibs. etc. If a T.O. is doing that, how can he be so adament that the shooter got a P, for shooting out of sequence, that he alone can make that call ? That is simply what I have been trying to touch on for two days.

I'm going to assume this is a serious question and not just stirring the pot. Think of where you, as the T.O. are standing relative to the shooter. You're alomst directly behind him and watching the muzzle of whatever gun he's shooting. By watching the muzzle from behind him you can see the targets in your periferral vision so you should have a relatively good idea of which target he's shooting at. You're also counting shots. Your view from this angle is the absolute best for seeing which targets he's shot at and how many times he's shot at them. That's why you, as the T.O. have the final say on Procedural penalties. Also, as Deuce said, not all procedurals are the result of shooting wrong targets and/or wrong number of times.

 

Now for misses. As I stated, you should be focused on the muzzle of whatever gun the shooter is using at the moment. Yes, you can see the targets in your pereferral vision but, you're not focused on them. For that reason you may or may not see all hits and misses. It's for that reason that you, as the T.O. do NOT have the final say on hits and misses. Only the spotters should have a laser like focus on the targets.

 

Having said all that, I'll openly admit that as a T.O. I've seen hits the spotters called misses. I usually know which hit they're calling a miss so I'll ask which target and with which gun. If it's the one I'm thinking I'll go down range and point out the hit. If they agree to change it to a hit, great. If not, sorry shooter, I tried.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

So, as I mentioned earlier, what about the posse member who sees a procedural but the counters and the TO don't?

We are all Safety Officers. but as the TO, I would listen to but ignore any input from that person on that stage. If it was a safety concern tho', I would watch that shooter "a little closer" on the next stage.

 

The shooter you mentioned previously. that shot the stage backwards. relayed a story to me from this year's Winter Range. A shooter not involved as an Officer at the time told the TO that she saw someone break the 170 and the TO awarded a DQ!!!

 

Fillmore

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Only the spotters should have a laser like focus on the targets.

 

Interesting that you mention this Philly. One of the spotters, who I consider a good spotter, was so focused on the target that was supposed to be engaged that she called a miss because nothing hit the target, not realizing the shooter hit the target next to it, (which was placed in such a way to allow a clean miss). When I mentioned the P, the phrase, "a miss can't cause a P" came up. I responded, "A miss didn't cause the P, shooting the targets in the wrong order caused the P".

 

Fillmore

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

We are all Safety Officers. but as the TO, I would listen to but ignore any input from that person.

 

Fillmore

 

 

We are all Safety Officers. but as the TO, I would listen to but ignore any input from that person.

 

Fillmore

 

 

We are all Safety Officers. but as the TO, I would listen to but ignore any input from that person.

 

Fillmore

Non posse officials do not get an input on misses, Ps, etc. No matter what they see you have to ignore it and ask them to hold their opinion to themselves next time.

[Grizzly Dave]

Philly Slim, you can run the timer for me anytime, just try not to doze off or laugh while I'm shooting.

[Shooting Bull]

Philly Slim, you can run the timer for me anytime, just try not to doze off or laugh while I'm shooting.

 

I promise you Dave, I'll never doze off while you're shooting............But lauging is another matter alltogether.

 

P.S. Is your heartrate back to normal since our little parking lot incident?

[Grizzly Dave]

I promise you Dave, I'll never doze off while you're shooting............But lauging is another matter alltogether.

 

P.S. Is your heartrate back to normal since our little parking lot incident?

 

Actually I was kinda numb from too many hours behind the wheel, it took me a while to figure out who the heck you were You don't look much like your avatar I don't think. I'm not sure if that is a compliment or a slam

[Cat Brules]

We are all Safety Officers. but as the TO, I would listen to but ignore any input from that person on that stage. If it was a safety concern tho', I would watch that shooter "a little closer" on the next stage.

 

The shooter you mentioned previously. that shot the stage backwards. relayed a story to me from this year's Winter Range. A shooter not involved as an Officer at the time told the TO that she saw someone break the 170 and the TO awarded a DQ!!!

 

Fillmore

 

 

Non posse officials do not get an input on misses, Ps, etc. No matter what they see you have to ignore it and ask them to hold their opinion to themselves next time.

 

Well, I completely disagree with that statement, that Fillmore should have told the posse member, "to hold their opinion to themselves next time."

 

First, Fillmore would never be that rude, and second, many shooters would tell him to go $%#@ @ %$$%& if he were to say something like that.

 

He knows and I'm sure most do as well, the difference between his various duties as Posse Leader, a Timer Operator or a Spotter and simply responding to and conversing with fellow posse members in a polite, resonable manner. Posse Members can converse to the various officers on the posse for a given stage all they want, but the TO/RO has his duties to attend to. And, a TO/RO who disrespects and blows off a fellow club member in such an impolite, rude manner deserves rude comments in return.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Posse members that are not officials for a shooter on the stage need to understand they have no say in spotting, calling Ps, or getting involved in disputed calls or challenges to rulings. Unfortunately you see it all the time and in some POLITE manner they need to be informed to keep their views to themselves. Non stage official posse members can talk all they want among themselves as long as they do not bother the shooter or stage officials while doing their tasks.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Posse members that are not officials for a shooter on the stage need to understand they have no say in spotting, calling Ps, or getting involved in disputed calls or challenges to rulings. Unfortunately you see it all the time and in some POLITE manner they need to be informed to keep their views to themselves. Non stage official posse members can talk all they want among themselves as long as they do not bother the shooter or stage officials while doing their tasks.

Good advice. That is be something the Posse Leader should convey to the shooters at the beginning of the Match. When I'm the PL I try to communicate some of the tips I've learned to make the the stage run well and to make sure that every effort is made to be fair and accurate for every shooter on our posse.

 

Fillmore

[Snakebite]

This has been covered many times and there are still many folks that do not seem to understand it. It should be emphasized in the RO I class. The T.O. is the person who makes the "P" call. The Spotters provide the T.O. with input with which to make that call... they do NOT directly make the call themselves, such as they do when reporting misses. If the T.O. saw the "P"... and has no doubt about it, then s/he can make the call without any of the Spotters being in agreement... but as has been stated... s/he better be Damned sure. There are times when the T.O. has the advantage of position on the Spotters. It is a rare situation when the T.O. exercises this perogative. In most cases, the T.O. will accept the Spotter's input and report it to the Scorekeeper as such.

 

Snakebite

[Snakebite]

Well, I completely disagree with that statement, that Fillmore should have told the posse member, "to hold their opinion to themselves next time."

 

First, Fillmore would never be that rude, and second, many shooters would tell him to go $%#@ @ %$$%& if he were to say something like that.

 

He knows and I'm sure most do as well, the difference between his various duties as Posse Leader, a Timer Operator or a Spotter and simply responding to and conversing with fellow posse members in a polite, resonable manner. Posse Members can converse to the various officers on the posse for a given stage all they want, but the TO/RO has his duties to attend to. And, a TO/RO who disrespects and blows off a fellow club member in such an impolite, rude manner deserves rude comments in return.

 

 

+1

 

Filmore knows what he is doing. Even when he is throwing Polish insults at you, he does it in a polite manner. In most cases, we are dealing with our friends. It might be alright to tell some of them to "Pound Sand" and "Eat stuff and Die", but I would never be impolite to them. Yes... it is true that they ought not provide input to the T.O., but it happens. The T.O. just has to do his/her best to ignor it.

 

Snakebite

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

This thread has perplexed me and I decided to sit it out. Then I let my fingers get carried away on another thread and posted to Big Whiskey I'd step up. I think he is just trying to understand what I believe is a series of contradictions.

 

Following are some of the pertinent rules from the ROI. Rules are in blue font.

"The Timer Operator is the Chief Range Officer during shooting stage operations...

The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits....

 

Just what does chief mean if he cannot overrule. If he’s in the best position to see muzzle direction, why can’t he overrule the counters when they say, we saw the impact way up the berm. Well Duh! If the muzzle was aiming at the target and the impact was way up the berm, it seems pretty certain that it was an edger. What if none of the counters are willing to admit they were wrong? I guess the shooter is the bug this time.

The Timer Operator should not count misses, but watches the shooter for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures in addition to counting shots fired if possible. However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate hits or misses if in question.

 

See my preceding rant and remember that "if possible" verbiage.

 

Spotters...

Have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to verify the targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.

Okay, this sounds like they are boss (responsible) in misses and procedurals where the TO only does this "if possible." But, the consensus on this thread is that the TO can overrule spotters on Ps not misses.

...It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses."

Okay,spotters are in charge of misses.

...The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

This one really gives me a headache. It should say (with the interpretations on this thread in mind) “The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or input on procedural penalties and then calls his determination to the Score Keeper and competitor in a loud, clear voice."

If he/she’s in charge of procedural determination based on their input, then he/she calls his/her (the TO's) determination, not “those numbers.”

 

Regards,

 

Allie "running for cover" Mo

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Hey Allie!

 

You know what I don't like about the way it's written>>>you know the rule, I know it, all the pards who're following this and other threads know it, PWB has spoken. But....you will inevitably encounter a pard who hasn't been privy to what's being said here on the wire and who will interpret:

 

"The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters ....The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper."

 

as meaning the TO is not the final word on Ps. I had this 'discussion' just two weeks ago and the other party to the discussion is still convinced the shooter should have been given a P despite the fact that I, as TO, clearly saw him shoot clean and the person making the P call wasn't sure about the stage procedure, but 'thought' they saw a P. That part of the rule book is exactly what he quotes.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Y'all keep forgetting to "read on" to the section on "SPOTTERS" where it states (one more time):

 

 

H) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses.

RO1 p.10 (emphasis added)

[Captain Bill Burt]

You're preaching to the choir PWB! I've got a highlighted, tabbed copy of all three manuals in my gun cart, but pards will point to what you just quoted as supporting the idea that it only takes one person to call a P and two to call a miss rather than supporting the TO's final authority on Ps. Just to be clear, I'm not supporting that interpretation, I'm just relaying the fact that I've heard that argument (in conjunction with 'the TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters') more than once. Clearly that argument is incorrect, but the fact that it is made MIGHT indicate the need for more explicit language on that topic.

[Colt Walker 45]

As amie mo pointed out along with several others the rules are open to who is reading them, unclear, and should be stated better. Instead of the rules board and "experts" fighting about how clear it is they should be polling and getting a clear rewrite of the rule. I work with procedures every day as I bet others on the wire here do and this is one rule that can use some help with a rewrite.

[Krazy Kajun]

You're preaching to the choir PWB! I've got a highlighted, tabbed copy of all three manuals in my gun cart, but pards will point to what you just quoted as supporting the idea that it only takes one person to call a P and two to call a miss rather than supporting the TO's final authority on Ps. Just to be clear, I'm not supporting that interpretation, I'm just relaying the fact that I've heard that argument (in conjunction with 'the TO does not have the authority to overrule the spotters') more than once. Clearly that argument is incorrect, but the fact that it is made MIGHT indicate the need for more explicit language on that topic.

Ah, so you must have a copy of the hard to find RO3 manual....you got a link where I can download that one

[Grizzly Dave]

KK, I would assume he's talking about the shooters handbook as one of the three, but what do I know?

 

Heck, I think it would be a good idea for clubs to print up copies of all the manuals and keep a copy on each stage in a three ring notebook. They could slip the stage scenario in the front cover clear pocket.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I think he means the "shooters handbook, ro1, and ro2

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

FWIW, it DOES need a rewrite,,,,,,as per the clarification discussions a few years ago. I was soundly against the TO being able to call a P by hissef, I was wrong, but this wording is no better now than it was then.....

 

A simple sentence added would clear it up. The TO, by his position behind the shooter has the best view as to how the targets were engaged, and as such has the final say as to wether or not a P was committed. A P does not require a majority decsision. or something as such..

 

Cheyenne, who is no longer on the ROC, and hasn't been for 3yrs or so....Culpepper

[Cat Brules]

Yes, I agree. A re-write is in order, not to update the rules, but to clarify and streamline them and remove misleading and contradictory statements.

Cat Brules

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

As far as rewording, here's one example...As the MD at the Match that started this topic put it,

 

"The TO can assign any penalty except a miss".

 

Maybe another sentence similar to this one...,

 

"Any Spotter or Spotters can tell the TO what they saw as far as a P, DQ, or a MSV but the TO has final authority when it comes to telling the scorekeeper what penalties will go on the scorecard. Input from any other participants should be evaluated for importance, but be disregarded in making a call."

 

Fillmore

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Y'all keep forgetting to "read on" to the section on "SPOTTERS" where it states (one more time):

 

RO1 p.10 (emphasis added)

I like this one.

 

 

H) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses

 

 

Three spotters, one has 1, one has 2, the third has 3. How many misses? PWB, hold back a little bit.

 

Fillmore

[Grey Beard]

I like this one.

 

 

H) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses

 

 

Three spotters, one has 1, one has 2, the third has 3. How many misses? PWB, hold back a little bit.

 

Fillmore

 

The correct call is 2 misses because two spotters clearly saw at least two misses. The one holding up 2 fingers and the one holding up 3 fingers. That's what I teach in all of the RO courses I run.

GB

[Harvey Mushman]

The correct call is 2 misses because two spotters clearly saw at least two misses. The one holding up 2 fingers and the one holding up 3 fingers. That's what I teach in all of the RO courses I run.

GB

+1 That is how I learned it, and how I call it!

[Curly Red Ryder]

As far as rewording, here's one example...As the MD at the Match that started this topic put it,

 

"The TO can assign any penalty except a miss".

 

Maybe another sentence similar to this one...,

 

"Any Spotter or Spotters can tell the TO what they saw as far as a P, DQ, or a MSV but the TO has final authority when it comes to telling the scorekeeper what penalties will go on the scorecard. Input from any other participants should be evaluated for importance, but be disregarded in making a call."

 

Fillmore

Fillmore, if a spotter sees an action to be called with a DQ, He has to stop the shooter immediately, not to report the DQed action to the TO later at the end of the string!

 

A DQing action, the shooter has to be stopped immediately by the officer who sees this action (TO is not always in the best position to see this action ie a cross draw breaking the 170°)