There seems to be misunderstanding about awarding a P

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Geese, I better watch for the angry mob of disgruntled past posee members that are grabbing pitchforks and clubs to come after me for cheating them out of there Caddies and 10,000 dollar prize checks.

Thanks for agreeing that this is a topic we should discuss. Different folks get different things out of this sport. There is room for the serious competitor and for the people that do this "just for fun".

 

Me, I don't think I'll ever be the fastest shooter at my club again, but there's a good chance that I can be the best TO, if I practice.

 

Fillmore

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I went through this two years ago. The rules are contradictory regarding procedurals. I suggested the Wild Bunch and the TG's address this issue and clarify the rules at their End of Trail meeting. IMO when there is a recurring issue repeatedly that is an indication there is a problem with the rule.

 

IMO...the rules were modified a bit in an attempt to clarify the issue (by adding "...spotter's INPUT to the T/O regarding penalties)

See also the specific sections ref'd in post #4

 

One of the "problems" is RO's who haven't attended a refresher course (specifically RO1) to get updated on the rules.

...and/or those who haven't bothered to READ the published updates and clarifications.

 

Another seems to be a reading comprehension issue (as in re: attempting to assess a MSV for unfired rounds remaining in a revolver...which penalty only applies to LONG guns, and has been stated as such in the rules for quite some time)

[riverview rattler]

I think that I have a pretty good understanding now:

TO, makes the calls on safetys and procedurals, and polls the spotters on misses(majority rules).

What is confusing is the way it is worded in the Handbooks and Rules.

5. Timer Operator

A) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer.

Is responsible for assigning and identifying three Spotters. It is a good idea to have bandanas or batons for the spotters to hold. This helps identify the spotters and keeps them on the line until they hand off the baton or bandana to the next spotter.

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

D) The Timer Operator should be aware of the skill level of the competitors and very attentive to newer shooters, helping and coaching them through the course of fire, as needed, and always ready to control the newer shooter.

E) Give seasoned shooters a little more room since they tend to move very fast. Don’t let them run over you because you’re crowding them.

F) The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately loaded guns or available ammunition on their person.

C) Seems to be saying that the spotters are to make the calls on misses/ and or procedurals

K) The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

K) This is not clear as worded who makes the procedural calls.

 

It would really be nice if it was stated somewhere in the rule books: Procedurals and safetys are called by the TO, input of spotters concidered. (something to that effect)

[Shooting Bull]

Geese, I better watch for the angry mob of disgruntled past posee members that are grabbing pitchforks and clubs to come after me for cheating them out of there Caddies and 10,000 dollar prize checks.

 

You're completely missing the point. No, I'll never win a Caddy or a $10K prize but, I work very hard to be the best shooter I can be. When I go to a big match I go to win. It saddens me to know there are people like you who refuse to accept your responsibility as a T.O. (As verified here by Pale Wolf Brunelle) would cheat me out of a possible win. And I do mean CHEAT. Anyone can hide behind the cloak of "Benefit of a doubt" but your very words betray you, "If I'm absolutely sure my shooter got a Procedural..." If you're absolutely sure then you owe it to every other shooter out there to make the call. If you're not prepared to do that you need to hand the timer to someone who's willing and able to make the tough call.

[Six-Shot]

I think that I have a pretty good understanding now:

 

TO, makes the calls on safetys and procedurals, and polls the spotters on misses(majority rules).

 

What is confusing is the way it is worded in the Handbooks and Rules.

 

5. Timer Operator

A) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer.

Is responsible for assigning and identifying three Spotters. It is a good idea to have bandanas or batons for the spotters to hold. This helps identify the spotters and keeps them on the line until they hand off the baton or bandana to the next spotter.

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses. The Timer Operator does have the best advantage to see the direction the muzzle is pointed, which is helpful in edge hits.

D) The Timer Operator should be aware of the skill level of the competitors and very attentive to newer shooters, helping and coaching them through the course of fire, as needed, and always ready to control the newer shooter.

E) Give seasoned shooters a little more room since they tend to move very fast. Don’t let them run over you because you’re crowding them.

F) The Timer Operator never starts a competitor in a faulted position or location. It is not considered a faulted position or location for allowing a shooter to start without appropriately loaded guns or available ammunition on their person.

 

C) Seems to be saying that the spotters are to make the calls on misses/ and or procedurals

 

 

K) The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

 

 

K) This is not clear as worded who makes the procedural calls.

 

It would really be nice if it was stated somewhere in the rule books: Procedurals and safetys are called by the TO, input of spotters concidered. (something to that effect)

 

Thanks Rattler for pointing out the discrepancies. I did two years ago. Two years later I am too tired to do it again.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Geese, I better watch for the angry mob of disgruntled past posee members that are grabbing pitchforks and clubs to come after me for cheating them out of there Caddies and 10,000 dollar prize checks.

Just because you don't give weight to the accomplishments of others, don't mean it ain't worth anything.

 

You may not want to swallow that pill of reality...but it reality. You see a "P" and you don't hand the 10sec out, you ARE cheating everyone else.

 

This is a fact...regardless of how you feel about the rewards of the competition.

 

Phantom

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I think that I have a pretty good understanding now:

 

TO, makes the calls on safetys and procedurals, and polls the spotters on misses(majority rules).

 

What is confusing is the way it is worded in the Handbooks and Rules.

 

5. Timer Operator

A) Is the Chief Range Officer for the stage and is in charge of the firing line, as long as he/she is running the timer.

...

.

C) The Timer Operator does not have the authority to overrule the spotters but can question spotters as to location of misses.

...

C) Seems to be saying that the spotters are to make the calls on misses/ and or procedurals

That statement only refers to MISSES.

 

 

K) The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

 

K) This is not clear as worded who makes the procedural calls.

??

 

 

It would really be nice if it was stated somewhere in the rule books: Procedurals and safetys are called by the TO, input of spotters considered. (something to that effect)

That's what it DOES say.

 

 

 

H) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses.

 

RO1 p.10

 

 

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Chutzpah -- telling your three spotters they are FOS when they saw no P, but yet you, the mighty TO did see the P. Who says the TO is right and the THREE spotters are wrong? As MD, I would overrule the TO in this case, assuming the spotters were doing their job, and not smoking and joking and playing grabass. Benefit to the shooter ALWAYS.

[Harvey Mushman]

Chutzpah -- telling your three spotters they are FOS when they saw no P, but yet you, the mighty TO did see the P. Who says the TO is right and the THREE spotters are wrong? As MD, I would overrule the TO in this case, assuming the spotters were doing their job, and not smoking and joking and playing grabass. Benefit to the shooter ALWAYS.

Absolutely not, but ya must be DAM sure when you do it, one way or the other. The RO IS usually in the best position to keep track of the firing order rather than misses, particularly when the stage has multiple shooting options - and that is the only place I've seen it happen to that degree.

 

Our last shoot we had a stage with multiple options and only two shooters shot a different order than everyone else on the posse. In both cases, the shooters (two of our fastest) shot in a correct order, but two or three spotters called P's.

 

I was RO for one and overruled it (with explanation and agreement) and spotter for the other where the RO also correctly overruled us. In my opinion, explaining and reconstructing what the RO saw is an important part of this and the shooter has always agreed when that has been done in my experience as TO or spotter.

 

It can and does happen, unfortunately, but fast shooters with options can certainly confuse spotters from multiple different angles. If the RO is absolutely sure, then he/she must explain and then call it. Unless the spotters and shooter were vehement that what the RO saw was wrong, the MD should not overturn that. If they were, then I agree with ya.

[Gus 'Buck' Silver]

There is room for the serious competitor and for the people that do this "just for fun".

 

This is off topic but it reminds me that last year at a SASS state championship event I had my posse leader tell me that those participating "just for fun" shouldn't be held to the same standard as competitive shooters regarding SASS rules. This after I called his attention to a non-competitive shooter in our posse using a rifle not allowed in his category.

 

The PL and MD made the wrong call, issuing a SDQ instead of a P (first offense for failure to adhere to category guidelines), which ultimately was corrected the following day, however that day their wrong call made me out to be the "bad guy" and I was confronted by the offender for turning him in to the "costume police." There was no consequence for interpersonal conflict.

 

[VENT MODE OFF]

[Big Whiskey]

You're completely missing the point. No, I'll never win a Caddy or a $10K prize but, I work very hard to be the best shooter I can be. When I go to a big match I go to win. It saddens me to know there are people like you who refuse to accept your responsibility as a T.O. (As verified here by Pale Wolf Brunelle) would cheat me out of a possible win. And I do mean CHEAT. Anyone can hide behind the cloak of "Benefit of a doubt" but your very words betray you, "If I'm absolutely sure my shooter got a Procedural..." If you're absolutely sure then you owe it to every other shooter out there to make the call. If you're not prepared to do that you need to hand the timer to someone who's willing and able to make the tough call.

Let me tell ya some'tn buddy, first off, If your your gonna piss on a tree, you better find out who's property it's on. I've bit my tongue for 3 of your posts looking to degrade me, and this time you've pushed the edge. People like you are the reason that many forum members don't get involved in posts. I see it many times with a handfull of the same people on here looking to just rip into someone thats looking for advice or just trying to better themselves. I have replyed a few times, how this topic and the clarifying advice that has been pointed out to me, will make me better at my job.

I've been running posee's for a year and a half now, at every club I shoot at, I've run posee's at 3 day match's I've attended, not one time has anyone ever complained about a call I've made in regards to a Procedule that I didn't call (not one time), because none of the spotters picked it up. I guess the best way to put it for individules like you is this, when the little blue box goes in my hand, I don't turn into something I'm not or Mr. Perfect that "never" could possibly make a mistake. I suppose me wording that comment earlier by saying, " I absolutly know for sure the shooter shot out of sequence ", was the wrong way to put it. I'm one person, know matter how sure I am, I could be wrong. Thats why I ask the shooter, and thats why I ask the spotters.

If anyone is missing a point, it's by all means you. The mob comment was a "between the lines" remark on the fact of the side issue of what this post hit on. I have read many times on the forum when "cash for winning" has come up, and the many responses of, "absolutly not, it will ruin the game". But whats a shame is, it's obvious that your name finishing in front of his name, a plaque, trophy or buckle, means every bit the same as that caddie or check.

I am every bit competitve in this as any Top shooter, but it's not a competitive sport, it's a game. It's conception was one of friends that love shooting firearms can get together and have FUN.

The point is, one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule, if there's not one other person that did not observe it. (Safety issues excluded).

[Shooting Bull]

Let me tell ya some'tn buddy, first off, If your your gonna piss on a tree, you better find out who's property it's on. I've bit my tongue for 3 of your posts looking to degrade me, and this time you've pushed the edge. People like you are the reason that many forum members don't get involved in posts. I see it many times with a handfull of the same people on here looking to just rip into someone thats looking for advice or just trying to better themselves. I have replyed a few times, how this topic and the clarifying advice that has been pointed out to me, will make me better at my job.

I've been running posee's for a year and a half now, at every club I shoot at, I've run posee's at 3 day match's I've attended, not one time has anyone ever complained about a call I've made in regards to a Procedule that I didn't call (not one time), because none of the spotters picked it up. I guess the best way to put it for individules like you is this, when the little blue box goes in my hand, I don't turn into something I'm not or Mr. Perfect that "never" could possibly make a mistake. I suppose me wording that comment earlier by saying, " I absolutly know for sure the shooter shot out of sequence ", was the wrong way to put it. I'm one person, know matter how sure I am, I could be wrong. Thats why I ask the shooter, and thats why I ask the spotters.

If anyone is missing a point, it's by all means you. The mob comment was a "between the lines" remark on the fact of the side issue of what this post hit on. I have read many times on the forum when "cash for winning" has come up, and the many responses of, "absolutly not, it will ruin the game". But whats a shame is, it's obvious that your name finishing in front of his name, a plaque, trophy or buckle, means every bit the same as that caddie or check.

I am every bit competitve in this as any Top shooter, but it's not a competitive sport, it's a game. It's conception was one of friends that love shooting firearms can get together and have FUN.

The point is, one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule, if there's not one other person that did not observe it. (Safety issues excluded).

 

Have you ever heard of a gentleman named Pale Wolf Brunelle? He's not hard to find, he's posted numerous times right here in this thread. Do you know what his role is here on this site? For some reason I don't think you do. You might want to do a little bit of research. Maybe then you'll realize that pretty much everyone who knows anything about being a T.O. has said you're wrong. But if you want to continue to bury your head in the sand, by all means, enjoy the view.

 

If you don't like the rule that says the T.O. can give a Procedural penalty without the agreement of any of the spotters, too bad. It's not your place to decide which rules get enforced and which don't. Again, if you can't handle the responsiblity, hand the timer to somone who can.

 

And by the way, if it's just a game, why do we keep score?

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

The point is, one person should not have the authority to give a 10 second procedule, if there's not one other person that did not observe it. (Safety issues excluded).

Pard, again you are applying YOUR standards and not the standards of the game. The TO has the responsibility to call what they see.

 

If you are not sure don't make the call.....If you are SURE that the shooter screwed up then you MUST make the call even if you are the only one to see it. That is part of your job/responsibility as the TO.

 

If you don't accept that as part of the game then you really shouldn't be running the timer because as others have said you are not being fair to all the other competitors that at the match when you don't make a call.

 

Nothing says you can't work to get that changed but until that were to happen you owe it to all of us to strive to follow the rules as written. I don't agree that hitting a pistol target with the rifle is just a miss but I call it like that because that's the rule.

 

One last thing.......don't put on the rose colored glasses and try to make this sport out as not being about competition......It's not solely about competition but that is a BIG part of it and always has been. Otherwise they would have never kept score to begin with and to think otherwise is just not right. Don't believe me then ask a Wild Bunch member the next time you see one. Sure there were more on the clock non-shooting activities in the beginning but it was still competitive.

 

Stan

[Captain Bill Burt]

Pard, again you are applying YOUR standards and not the standards of the game. The TO has the responsibility to call what they see.

 

If you are not sure don't make the call.....If you are SURE that the shooter screwed up then you MUST make the call even if you are the only one to see it. That is part of your job/responsibility as the TO.

 

If you don't accept that as part of the game then you really shouldn't be running the timer because as others have said you are not being fair to all the other competitors that at the match when you don't make a call.

 

Nothing says you can't work to get that changed but until that were to happen you owe it to all of us to strive to follow the rules as written. I don't agree that hitting a pistol target with the rifle is just a miss but I call it like that because that's the rule.

 

One last thing.......don't put on the rose colored glasses and try to make this sport out as not being about competition......It's not solely about competition but that is a BIG part of it and always has been. Otherwise they would have never kept score to begin with and to think otherwise is just not right. Don't believe me then ask a Wild Bunch member the next time you see one. Sure there were more on the clock non-shooting activities in the beginning but it was still competitive.

 

Stan

+1

I've written similar things on other threads. It's perfectly OK to disagree with the rules and work to have them changed. It's not OK to disagree with them and refuse to follow them. If you feel that way then don't run the timer.

[Big Whiskey]

Guys, Please !!! I am not saying I'm going to keep calling the way I have in the past. How many times have I posted that I'm apreciative of the clarifying.

I mean really, somebody help me out here !! Yes, obviously my way of that perticular call has been wrong and yesterday I learned how to call it right. No, again, in 1 1/2 years nobody's ever approached me to say, " ya know, I don't think you called that right".

Good lord, I'd hate to be you'alls kid to think, I could not live down a mistake. On the other front, I'll flat tell ya, you're not gonna call me a cheater and see me go in the corner with my tail between my legs.

A good friend of mine, whom has his nose burried in these rule books, has said # 1 it's really not perfectly clarified, # 2 rules are rules, if you don't like them, lobby to get them changed.

In regards to # 1, many of the people I have total respect for PWB, Stan, Red-Eye, Griff, Fillmore, Cactus have steared me in the correct direction, especially PWB, that is not an issue anymore.

# 2, your saying I cannot even express my thinking of " has it ever been thought of to change to this".

I would love for anyone here to poll any if not every single person that has ever been on a posee that I have run and ask, " what do you think of this guy ? would you ever be on his posee again ?"

So many of you are totally taking this the wrong way. I'm friend - not foe !!!

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

. The TO has the responsibility to call what they see.

 

not being fair to all the other competitors that at the match when you don't make a call.

 

 

 

 

Stan

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Chutzpah -- telling your three spotters they are FOS when they saw no P, but yet you, the mighty TO did see the P. Who says the TO is right and the THREE spotters are wrong? As MD, I would overrule the TO in this case, assuming the spotters were doing their job, and not smoking and joking and playing grabass. Benefit to the shooter ALWAYS.

You take things interestingly...no one said the spotters were FOS nor not doing their job. Sometimes the angle of view has everything to do with a "P"...or a miss as well.

 

Again, if the T.O. KNOWS it's a P, then they have the responsibility to call it...even if it puts them on an island.

 

Phantom

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Chutzpah -- telling your three spotters they are FOS when they saw no P, but yet you, the mighty TO did see the P. Who says the TO is right and the THREE spotters are wrong? As MD, I would overrule the TO in this case, assuming the spotters were doing their job, and not smoking and joking and playing grabass. Benefit to the shooter ALWAYS.

If you really saw a P and the spotters did not, you are doing a dis service to all the other shooters in the match if you did not call it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, but if you the RO saw a clear safety, and the spotters did not wouldn't you call it? A P is no different.

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Chutzpah -- telling your three spotters they are FOS when they saw no P, but yet you, the mighty TO did see the P. Who says the TO is right and the THREE spotters are wrong? As MD, I would overrule the TO in this case, assuming the spotters were doing their job, and not smoking and joking and playing grabass. Benefit to the shooter ALWAYS.

 

OS,

 

In this hypothetical case, if you overrule the TO when he is dead certain that he saw what he saw, then good luck getting that person to ever pick up a timer at one of your hypothetical matches ever again. We all make mistakes, but it's a matter of trust as well. We trust these poor fools who pick up the timer to be truthful to themselves and to those they oversee during the course of fire, and, in that vein, if they are certain of what they saw and you belittle them by over turning their call, they have no reason to continue. It's a vote of no confidence, a slap in the face if you will. I will be the first to tell you that there are some that don't need to be holding that timer just as some don't need to spot, but by in large, you have to back up your range staff unless you have reason, a damn good reason not to.

 

Regards,

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

 

 

I was RO for one and overruled it (with explanation and agreement) and spotter for the other where the RO also correctly overruled us. In my opinion, explaining and reconstructing what the RO saw is an important part of this and the shooter has always agreed when that has been done in my experience as TO or spotter.

 

It can and does happen, unfortunately, but fast shooters with options can certainly confuse spotters from multiple different angles. If the RO is absolutely sure, then he/she must explain and then call it. Unless the spotters and shooter were vehement that what the RO saw was wrong, the MD should not overturn that. If they were, then I agree with ya.

 

There you go. This is what I am trying to convey. If I was spotting for a particular TO, and he overruled my call when I was absolutely sure of what I saw, I would no longer spot for that person. It has happened to me only once -- a shooter had their double close on them, MSV. The RO said nope, didn't see it.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

You take things interestingly...no one said the spotters were FOS nor not doing their job. Sometimes the angle of view has everything to do with a "P"...or a miss as well.

 

Again, if the T.O. KNOWS it's a P, then they have the responsibility to call it...even if it puts them on an island.

 

Phantom

 

Shoot, I think Phantom is about to figure me out. I deliberately take a contrarian view at times to try and stimulate conversation of the subject, especially if it is one that I am interested in. Fortunately for me, I have never seen a P that at least one of the spotters picked up on as well. I'm sure it happens, but it hasn't happened to me yet.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

If you really saw a P and the spotters did not, you are doing a dis service to all the other shooters in the match if you did not call it. Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter, but if you the RO saw a clear safety, and the spotters did not wouldn't you call it? A P is no different.

 

I would call it. I'm just being ornery. As I said to Phantom, it has never happened to me yet, because I take spotting seriously. If a spotter is over having a smoke and jack jawing while they are supposed to be spotting, I'll give the baton to someone else. Spotting is the weakest link in our game, IMHO, and people do not take it with the seriousness it should be taken.

[Grizzly Dave]

I don't run the timer much, but I have been in the situation where I saw a P that none of the spotters did, or maybe it was the other way around, they saw it and I didn't. I handed off the timer and replaced at least one spotter so we could sort it out and get the call right.

 

At the end of the shooting for the shooter in question I KNEW what I had seen, but as it turns out I was wrong because I was reading the stage scenario wrong. By handing the timer off and having a confab, we were able to make the correct call.

 

I guess I say all that to say this - if I see a P no matter if no one else does, I will call it. If no one else saw it, I'll take the time to make sure I am right, but unless I discover that I was looking at something wrong, I will still call it.

 

Same thing if I am spotting, I'll call it if I see it, if the TO overrules me, so be it.

[Shooting Bull]

Guys, Please !!! I am not saying I'm going to keep calling the way I have in the past. How many times have I posted that I'm apreciative of the clarifying.

I mean really, somebody help me out here !! Yes, obviously my way of that perticular call has been wrong and yesterday I learned how to call it right.

I didn't pick this up in your other posts. I was going under the impression that you were still ignoring the rule. By my definition, someone who knowingly and willfully disregards the rules is a cheater. Since I now know you're not a cheater, please accept me sincere appology.

 

Please note that some people take this "game" very seriously. No, not seriously enough to come to blows but, we compete to win. Add to that, my wife and I routinely spends many hundreds of dollars to go to big matches. We're not alone in that. When people spend that kind of $$$ to participate and compete, they like to know they're competing aginst other shooters who are all following the same set of rules. If a T.O. on another posse is letting folks get away with things that they should be penalized for, it's no longer a fair competition. You've said you see that and won't do it anymore. I trust your word. Just want you to understand where the rest of us are coming from and why we take it so seriously.

[Big Whiskey]

Your apology means alot Slim, I do accept it, and thankyou. I knew you wuz a good guy.

Now that I have one Cowboy back in semi good graces, I gotta throw this out there, which I'm hesitant, but, its gonna be interesting... I'm T.O., I know for sure the shooter had an edge hit, ( oh geeeze ), 2 or all 3 spotters call it a miss. Can I over ride them, especially if I point out the lead mark ????

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Your apology means alot Slim, I do accept it, and thankyou. I knew you wuz a good guy.

Now that I have one Cowboy back in semi good graces, I gotta throw this out there, which I'm hesitant, but, its gonna be interesting... I'm T.O., I know for sure the shooter had an edge hit, ( oh geeeze ), 2 or all 3 spotters call it a miss. Can I over ride them, especially if I point out the lead mark ????

You can not over ride the spotters call, ever on hits and misses. You can point out the edge hit and hope to change their minds, give them a chance to chang their calls, but in the end it is the spotters call.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Your apology means alot Slim, I do accept it, and thankyou. I knew you wuz a good guy.

Now that I have one Cowboy back in semi good graces, I gotta throw this out there, which I'm hesitant, but, its gonna be interesting... I'm T.O., I know for sure the shooter had an edge hit, ( oh geeeze ), 2 or all 3 spotters call it a miss. Can I over ride them, especially if I point out the lead mark ????

No.

[Big Whiskey]

Ok, so I'm in the best spot to catch safety intractions, I'm in the best spot to observe the shooter "possibly" shoot out of sequence, if they do and the spotters do not catch it, I have the authority to penalize them, I'm in the best spot to catch an edge shot, No authority to help shooter with penalty except to hopefully point out to spotters. Hmmm

[Big Whiskey]

Guys, I'm just stir'n the pot. I'm a fun dude, thats what I've been try'n to tell ya'll.

[Captain Bill Burt]

You're supposed to be watching the gun, not hits and misses.

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

So, as I mentioned earlier, what about the posse member who sees a procedural but the counters and the TO don't?

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I think a lot was learned by this posting. Mistakes can and are made in this game. Reading and keeping up to date on changes in rules. Taking refresher courses, and asking questions will only improve consistency in scoring, and if warranted, penalties handed out fairly. Sometimes, trying to be the good guy for a shooter, only hurts the shooter, and shooters of the match overall.

I've applied this to myself even in spotting, sometimes I say to myself, "OOOps, looks like shooter missed", do I hold up a finger for that? Nope, because "I thought", "I wasn't sure". I also won't TO, unless I'm 110% sure I know the sequence of the stage.

Asking questions is good, and I hope it continues on the wire to educate everyone, including myself to be the best at what I do. I make it a habit, each Monday morning to check out the rule books, changes, updates, and to study that what is written is interpreted as that, and not read between to make a decision fit which I might have erred in.

Calling misses, "P" or "DQ", is never an easy task, but must be done to be fair and equal, and gain knowledge, both for the shooter, and for those around. We all learn, and put that learning to practice.

Overall, a good learning post. MT

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Ok, so I'm in the best spot to catch safety intractions, I'm in the best spot to observe the shooter "possibly" shoot out of sequence, if they do and the spotters do not catch it, I have the authority to penalize them, I'm in the best spot to catch an edge shot, No authority to help shooter with penalty except to hopefully point out to spotters. Hmmm

Spotting is subjective. Also not all P's are earned from shooting, foot faults,failure to engage from correct postiton or failing to carry out stage instructions also can earn the shooter a P. I find the rules to be clear on this. The real issue is lack of shooter education and ignorance of current rules. Also what is really lacking is the lack of shooter responsibility. We have worked ourselves into a position where the TO and RO's can and are held responsible for virtually anything that can take place during the course of the stage. Leaving many as of late not wanting to act as a TO or spotter.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Ok, so I'm in the best spot to catch safety intractions, I'm in the best spot to observe the shooter "possibly" shoot out of sequence, if they do and the spotters do not catch it, I have the authority to penalize them, I'm in the best spot to catch an edge shot, No authority to help shooter with penalty except to hopefully point out to spotters. Hmmm

 

If the spotters will not acknowledge an obvious edger after the T/O points it out to them, unfortunately their call stands...

HOWEVER, the T/O DOES have the option to REPLACE those spotters.

REF: RO1 p.7 (A, B, C under "TImer Operator")

 

...but that doesn't help the shooter who got the MISScall.

[Big Whiskey]

Listen, contrary to what was thought, I am all about the rules. I am not timid to penalize nor DQ anyone. I unfortunatly missed a refresher course last weekend, but I assure you, I will be attending one real soon all for reason of this thread.

These are the sort of issues I wish were discussed more often, instead of whats going on with Top Shot or American Guns. But hey, a forum is a forum, I'm down with that.

I am still intreaged ( prob didnt spell that right ) , with this further though. 1st I am curious if Im the only one that see's what seams to be a double standard with this. I'm in the best spot to penalize, but not over turn. I look at that rule as, it's kinda more important to penalize than it is to help. The majority rules here, but it don't rule there.

I'm only referring to hits/misses/shooting out of sequence. As the T.O., has that rule ever been discussed at the meetings to be changed so that the T.O. either does or does not have the authority to changes a call on all 3.

2nd, Am I sincerely the only cowboy that believes, the majority should rule on all 3, and 1 person (T.O.) should not have the authority to penalize for a out of sequence string ?