There seems to be misunderstanding about awarding a P

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

This past shoot, I was the TO. A shooter had completed the course of fire. I announced the raw time and polled the spotters for misses which I then announced. I then asked if any of the spotters had seen the targets shot in an incorrect order. None of them could say they had. I happened to be in a position where I could watch the shooter and have a view of the targets. I saw the incorrect target engagement, no doubt in my mind.

I told the scorekeeper to award the shooter a P. Well, some of the posse onlookers who have gone thru ROII and have some time under their belt "knew" that there was no way that I, the lonely TO, could call a P on a shooter. One uninvolved shooter went as far as to run off to the MD for a clarification.

Well, of course I, or any other spotter can call a P on the shooter. It concerns me tho' that after all this time, some folks still think there has to be a majority to make this kind of call. The only advice I would offer is that if you are going to award a penalty, you better be damn sure you are right.

I recommend all concerned shooters and potential spotters and TOs watch and participate on this Wire to keep up on the nuances of the Rules.

 

Fillmore

[Colt Walker 45]

I think that the reason people were asking is you need more than 1 person to call a P or a miss.that is the reason for 3 spotters, otherwise it's a no call. Running the timer is for safety of the shooter, you, and others on the stage, to catch miss fires, 170 breaks, empty guns placed etc. most timers leave the spotting to the spotters. Thanks

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Technically you are absolutely correct. Doesn't take a shooter in the same category or a spotter to make an out of category call or sweep either. But from the firing line (LT to ULT) the 4 line officers make the shooting line calls. It's not up to the scorekeeper or the gallery.

 

I have to admit though that when I've had the clock I've called only 1 procedural that the spotters didn't see. Once I pointed it out they were unsure, but I wasn't so I called it. Make no mistake... like you say, FC... "better be damn sure you're right"

 

Cuz my bet is that someone is going to have a thing or two to dispute about that call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

I think that the reason people were asking is you need more than 1 person to call a P or a miss.that is the reason for 3 spotters, otherwise it's a no call. Running the timer is for safety of the shooter, you, and others on the stage, to catch miss fires, 170 breaks, empty guns placed etc. most timers leave the spotting to the spotters. Thanks

 

REF: RO1 page 8 (G & K) & page 10 (H)

 

 

[Big Whiskey]

This is an example, in my opinion, where the committee needs to clarify whether a T.O. has the authority to over-ride 3 spotters.

I know Palewolf is "on point" when it comes to the rule's, and I like when he adds his judgement to questions, I feel the same about Griff, and a handfull of others on the wire. But in this situation, as happens many times, we're told to "refer to"... And the way I read it, the T.O.'s responsibility - "watch for correct procedure" and then in the other section, "T.O. most of the time has the best view".

It's too open to interpretation of the reader. It does not say " T.O. can call a P alone if he observes ".

When it reads, "watch for correct procedure", I take that as, "if I can stop shooter from shooting wrong target, I will certainly make the attempt". But, if I turn to spotters, and none of the 3 call the P, I say to them, " neither of you noticed the shooter shot this way ", they say " no ", I have been under the impression my 4 short years in the " game ", the benefit goes to the shooter.

I'm climbing on this because, I myself, this past weekend, for the 1st time, had a S.O.G called on me from the T.O.. Anyone that has shot with me knows, if we have one hundred thousand shooters in SASS, I am the " last " person that deserves a S.O.G penalty.

So the point is, if a T.O. has the right to make a call on his own, over-riding 3 spotters, it needs to be added to our rules.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Big Whiskey,

PWB is the voice of the Range Operations Committee on the wire......so the ROC has clarified that the TO can call a P by themselves.

 

Did you read page 10 section H......

H) It is up to the Timer Operator to verify at least two of the three Spotters agree on misses.

 

There is no mention of agreeing on Procedurals or Safeties is there? Makes it pretty clear that a majority is only needed on misses.

 

Stan

 

P.S. I am curious about your SOG.....what happened? I've never seen one called.......

[Captain Bill Burt]

There was a thread on this very subject not to long ago. PWB contributed to that one as well. The long and short of it was. The TO gets the final call on Ps, but not misses, those are the responsibility of the spotters. Yes one person can call a P, but the TO can overturn that call if he polls the spotters and they can definitely state that there wasn't a P.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

The "P", is often the most misunderstood penalty. I've even seen TO ask if anyone caught the "P", since no one did but the TO, he gave non. Some shooters, and spotters also think it takes more then one to call a "P".

It maybe only one spotter that caught it, then the TO will ask what the "P" is for, then make a decision. Or, non of the spotters caught it, except the TO. The TO will poll the spotters, if non saw it, but TO, he will then make and call the penalty.

Not all spotters may see it, or maybe just seeing and hearing hits and misses, and counting shots. Some may forget the sequence, especially early in a stage.

This past Saturday, only one person caught a "P" on me. I didn't know I had received it, nor gotten one, since after shooting I never look at TO, or spotters and just pickup long guns and head to unloading table. The one spotter who saw it, said "sorry, I called a "P" on you for shooting second string from same side". I didn't know until she told me, and said "you did right". MT

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Do not know where those folks took their RO classes recently, but it is clear from the classes I have taken including several refreshers that only the RO can call penalties for non miss situations, i.e. Ps, Ss, DQs, etc. The RO has to make the decision based on what he saw and what the spotters saw. The RO does not have to agree with the spotters as sometimes he is in best position to see what is going on. A P can be called by the RO with 0, 1, 2 or 3 spotters seeing it. The RO can over ride the P even with 1, 2, or 3 spotters seeing it.

[Big Whiskey]

Stan, that sounds good and because you've explained that aspect, now I know how to proceed. I just want to point out though, just as you explained... you say, " There is no menion of agreeing on Procedurals or safeties, making it pretty clear that only a majority is needed on misses ".

That is where I'm thinking we need to have it adjusted in the book. Do you kinda see where my thinking is ? Because there's no mention, the way I, or someone else may read into it, is that it's " not " clear.

I absolutely do not mean to twist this into a big ball of a mess, I would simply be happy if the rule simply read, " when it comes to misses and procedurals, the T.O. has the authority to overide spotters".

Now I will add, I don't like that. Because when it comes to those two things, I believe it should be a majority decision with the spotters.

I of course certainly feel strongly that the T.O. should call everything related to safety issues if he "alone" catch's a infraction.

By the way, you are another Cowboy that I respect in the same regards as the above mentioned. AS for my S.O.G penalty, I don't wanna highjack Mr. Coffin's thread, so I will be happy to PM you of the occurance. Because I would respect your input whether it would be in my favor or not. BW

[Tracker Mike SASS #38824]

Do not know where those folks took their RO classes recently, but it is clear from the classes I have taken including several refreshers that only the RO can call penalties for non miss situations, i.e. Ps, Ss, DQs, etc. The RO has to make the decision based on what he saw and what the spotters saw. The RO does not have to agree with the spotters as sometimes he is in best position to see what is going on. A P can be called by the RO with 0, 1, 2 or 3 spotters seeing it. The RO can over ride the P even with 1, 2, or 3 spotters seeing it.

 

+1 this was my understanding as well ..... based on my last RO refresher course and PWB educational comments on this topic

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Do not know where those folks took their RO classes recently, but it is clear from the classes I have taken including several refreshers that only the RO can call penalties for non miss situations, i.e. Ps, Ss, DQs, etc. The RO has to make the decision based on what he saw and what the spotters saw. The RO does not have to agree with the spotters as sometimes he is in best position to see what is going on. A P can be called by the RO with 0, 1, 2 or 3 spotters seeing it. The RO can over ride the P even with 1, 2, or 3 spotters seeing it.

 

And this is also a good way to start dissent in a club. Override a P when 2 or 3 spotters saw it, and rumors of favoritism get started.

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

Shoot, when I mess up. The timer operator don't need to call that "P". I do it myself.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

And this is also a good way to start dissent in a club. Override a P when 2 or 3 spotters saw it, and rumors of favoritism get started.

Spotters do get it wrong, once in a while especially on stages where shooters given lots of flexibility on how they shoot a stage. Saw it at WR this year and RO made the right call, twice. Happened on stage where one shooter did it differently than everyone else, but met stage requirement.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Spotters do get it wrong, once in a while especially on stages where shooters given lots of flexibility on how they shoot a stage. Saw it at WR this year and RO made the right call, twice. Happened on stage where one shooter did it differently than everyone else, but met stage requirement.

 

This is very true as well. I have overruled the spotters in this occasion after discussing the stage with them and clarifying the shooting process. Communication is the key.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Stan, that sounds good and because you've explained that aspect, now I know how to proceed. I just want to point out though, just as you explained... you say, " There is no menion of agreeing on Procedurals or safeties, making it pretty clear that only a majority is needed on misses ".

That is where I'm thinking we need to have it adjusted in the book. Do you kinda see where my thinking is ? Because there's no mention, the way I, or someone else may read into it, is that it's " not " clear.

I absolutely do not mean to twist this into a big ball of a mess, I would simply be happy if the rule simply read, " when it comes to misses and procedurals, the T.O. has the authority to overide spotters".

Now I will add, I don't like that. Because when it comes to those two things, I believe it should be a majority decision with the spotters.

I of course certainly feel strongly that the T.O. should call everything related to safety issues if he "alone" catch's a infraction.

By the way, you are another Cowboy that I respect in the same regards as the above mentioned. AS for my S.O.G penalty, I don't wanna highjack Mr. Coffin's thread, so I will be happy to PM you of the occurance. Because I would respect your input whether it would be in my favor or not. BW

No problem pard.....I understand completely. Sometimes things aren't so clear in the books.....PM me please.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

And this is also a good way to start dissent in a club. Override a P when 2 or 3 spotters saw it, and rumors of favoritism get started.

Your right, seen it at a large state match. Did make a difference in who got State Champ. 2 spotters called it. Shooter didn't stage firearm on proper table. Instead of a "P", TO gave a re-shoot. Made a difference in outcome. MT

[Shooting Bull]

I absolutely do not mean to twist this into a big ball of a mess, I would simply be happy if the rule simply read, " when it comes to misses and procedurals, the T.O. has the authority to overide spotters".

Now I will add, I don't like that. Because when it comes to those two things, I believe it should be a majority decision with the spotters.

 

It's already in the rules. RO I MATCH PROCEDURES AND TERMS 5. TIMER OPERATOR G):

 

The Timer Operator should not count misses, BUT WATCHES THE SHOOTER FOR UNSAFE ACTS, CORRECT TARGET ENGAGEMENT, AND STAGE PROCEDURES in addition to counting shots fired if possible. However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate hits or misses if in question.

[Guest Winchester Jack, SASS #70195]

this is a good discusion because last Sunday while waiting for my turn at the loading table I watched a lady shoot the entire stage backwards and no one caught it except the 2 of us that were at the loading table,and the shooters husband!

[Big Whiskey]

It's already in the rules. RO I MATCH PROCEDURES AND TERMS 5. TIMER OPERATOR G):

 

The Timer Operator should not count misses, BUT WATCHES THE SHOOTER FOR UNSAFE ACTS, CORRECT TARGET ENGAGEMENT, AND STAGE PROCEDURES in addition to counting shots fired if possible. However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate hits or misses if in question.

Slim, this is what I'm saying, It "is not" written that the T.O. can make the call himsef. "Watches the shooter", I personally take that sentence as a timer to "if possible" help the shooter thru the sequence.

I understand there are so many out there that are saying, " good lord whiskey, read between the lines ". But, for reason of where we're at with this game, this has to be clarified.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

BW,

You can personally take it any way you want.....but......you need to accept that you are taking it the wrong way.

 

K) The Timer Operator polls the three Spotters to determine the number of misses and/or procedural penalties input, and then calls those numbers to the Score Keeper and the competitor in a loud, clear voice.

 

Think about it. What if the TO is the only one in a position to see that the shooter did not comply with stage instructions? What if the TO is the only person in a position to see a safety violation? Many times this the case. Is the penalty not valid because 2 out of 3 spotters didn't see it?

 

All 3 spotters should be positioned to see all the targets so it is reasonable to expect them to be able to agree on misses. It is impossible for the spotters to watch the targets and watch the shooter at the same time for procedural violations and safety violations. Remember procedurals are not limited to hitting the targets out of order.

 

 

Spotters determine the number of misses and provide input for other penalties. It is up to the TO to determine if the shooter earned any penalties beyond the misses. ONLY the TO can tell the scorekeeper to add penalties to a shooters score.

 

Stan

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

Hey BW,

 

It is a "majority" rule on hits/ misses, but thats all. The TO/RO has the authority to call P's, safety's and DQ's by himself. He does not have the authority to over-ride the spotters on hits/misses. If he is in a position to see hits/misses, he can question the spotters on their call but isn/t supposed to over-ride it. This is the way I was taught years ago and from reading Pale Wolfs answers to questions on the wire helps clarify some of the "gray" areas. ( I always read the "whats the call" threads and read PWB answer)

 

Now myself, I will ask the spotters if anyone else saw the P ( target order), but even if they didn't.....and I now 100% that I saw it, then I will call it. If I have the slightest doubt, even if a spotter tells me they saw it; then I don't call it; benefit goes to the shooter.

 

I gotta agree with everyone else here.

 

Red Eye

[Big Whiskey]

Yes Sir, That point is well made. It it will make me a better T.O. If I may add though, I thoroughly believe in running my posee's with the full intension of the benefit of a doubt going to the shooter. My number one priority is to keep shooter and posee members safe, 2nd priority, make a big effort for everyone to feel comfortable and have fun.

As in the past, if I know for absolute sure that my shooter got a Procedule, when the last shot is fired, I tell he/she their time, and then I say. " do you know what you did ? " I turn to my spotters - spotters say ? No-ones pointing down. I personally, will not give a Procedule.

Now, if the shooter lives their way by the Cowboy Code, because I believe at least 8 out of 10 shooters "know" they shot out of sequence. And their answer to my " do you know what you just did "? Yes, then my affirmation is 2nd, and I'll give'm a P.

[Griff]

 

The Timer Operator should not count misses, but watches the shooter for unsafe acts, correct target engagement, and stage procedures in addition to counting shots fired if possible. However, the Timer Operator is often times in the best position to evaluate hits or misses if in question.

BW, it ain't "readin' between the lines", the above clearly states what the Timer Operator's duties are. The spotters are to also observe for those same things, but when their focus in on the targets downrange, they may miss a procedural or safety error that occurs up at the firing line. Likewise, the TO may miss a target sequence mistake when he's focusing on the shooter's gun handling. Because the spotter's didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

 

Let's take it from a practical standpoint... i.e., there is a TO and 3 spotters on the posse, and slow-azzed Griff shooting... Let's say that instead of 2 distinct Nevada sweeps as the course of fire states, Griff shoots in a continuous Nevada sweep. But two of the spotters didn't catch that goof... while the TO and one spotter are adamant that Griff goofed up, again! Where's the tie-breaker? Surely we're not going to rely on the shooter... or heavens forbid, the scorekeeper? (The scorekeeper may actually have an opinion, may actually have observed the alleged infraction, but according the rule book, has no role in the decision-making process).

 

Don't get me wrong, sometimes the shooter acknowledges their error, sometimes there's a lively conversation on calls... as it should be... both in fairness to the individual shooter involved and the balance of the shooters at the match. An incorrect call is detrimental to all.

 

Over the years I've seen many procedurals and safeties called by a lone individual, and as the TO, at all times I've reviewed the call with the person that makes the assertion and either agreed or over-rode the call. Sometimes that's after a lengthy "discussion!" However, I've found that if 2 spotters make the same call and can articulate the point at which said alleged infraction took place, in agreement, it is generally the right call, whether I saw the infraction or not. Just as with polling the spotters on misses, I've had 3 spotters tell me that there were misses on pistol target #s 2 & 4 and a rifle on #3; all in agreement and yet... when I can point out the "shoulder" edge strike on pistol target #2, they've all capitulated and agreed on 2 misses as the correct call. Likewise, when TO said that "Griff shot the rifle 1-2-3-2-1-2-3-2-1-2 instead of 1-2-3-2-1-1-2-3-2-1", and none of the spotters saw the same, what's the correct call?

 

Here's the answer: "P". Pure and Plain-as-day. It happens. When the TO had said "wrong target" while I was shooting, I'd recognized that I'd fouled up my clean match. Whether a single spotter, scorekeeper the shooter or anyone else saw the infraction or not... no one "gave" me that "P", I'd EARNED it.

 

And as a TO, if you're sure the infraction took place, you're doing everyone a dis-service if you don't call it. I'm sure there are spotters that don't like me when I'm the TO, but I'm hopeful that shooters recognize I try to be as fair as humanly possible... if not moreso. I know I've made bad, or to be generous, incorrect calls... that doesn't mean that they haven't been learning experiences. If a shooter disagrees with a call I make, I take it to the MD or Range Master...

 

There ain't a call in this game that isn't correctable. (edited to add): Except the one you DON'T make.

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

Big Whiskey...that's mighty "cowboy" of ya...but remember...if you fail to assess an earned penalty, you are penalizing every other shooter in the match.

 

Four Bucks

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Post #'s 21, 22 & 24 pretty much cover how this is SUPPOSED to work.

 

IF the T/O and/or spotter(s) are certain as to whether the shooter committed a "P" or safety violation, the ONLY "doubt" that should be considered by the Timer Operator in "making the call" is if one (or more) of the 4 "line RO's" are in such a position that they can state that the violation did NOT occur.

 

Inattention and/or not being in a position to observe the shooter (or targets) are NOT grounds for injecting "benefit of doubt" into the process.

 

If there is NO DOUBT...there is NO BENEFIT.

[Big Whiskey]

Thank you guys for clarifying. I got what I certainly need to hopefully make me a better, if not fair'r T.O.

I also say, Thankyou to Fillmore for posting this topic. I know for a fact, this was a very important topic that many shooters discuss but, the step don't get made. Now it has.

[Shooting Bull]

As in the past, if I know for absolute sure that my shooter got a Procedule, when the last shot is fired, I tell he/she their time, and then I say. " do you know what you did ? " I turn to my spotters - spotters say ? No-ones pointing down. I personally, will not give a Procedule.

 

If you know for absolute sure the shooter got a Procedural but didn't assess the penalty, you're punishing every other shooter in the match.

[Big Whiskey]

Well, cause that's where I always felt, " that benefit thing again", even though in my mind I am absolutely sure, you could always still make a mistake. Therefore, I count on my spotters for hits/misses & shooting out of sequence.

As I said, if I ask the shooter, and they flat look at me with the look of a dog when the fire whistle sounds, I think, well maybe not. If I turn to spotters and one spotter is pointing at a rock, then itsa P.

[Captain Bill Burt]

If you know for absolute sure the shooter got a Procedural but didn't assess the penalty, you're punishing every other shooter in the match.

That's the hardest part of being a TO for me, walking the line between not being a harda$$ and being the heavy when needed. Most shooters take it well, the occasional few will give you 'that' look, and every now and then someone wants to get argumentative.

[Cactus Whiskey, SASS #75905]

BW, I think Red Eyed Kid and Griff have good explanations and I must concur. Also if you don't penalize an infraction you've done th rest of the shooters an injustice.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Yes Sir, That point is well made. It it will make me a better T.O. If I may add though, I thoroughly believe in running my posee's with the full intension of the benefit of a doubt going to the shooter. My number one priority is to keep shooter and posee members safe, 2nd priority, make a big effort for everyone to feel comfortable and have fun.

As in the past, if I know for absolute sure that my shooter got a Procedule, when the last shot is fired, I tell he/she their time, and then I say. " do you know what you did ? " I turn to my spotters - spotters say ? No-ones pointing down. I personally, will not give a Procedule.

Now, if the shooter lives their way by the Cowboy Code, because I believe at least 8 out of 10 shooters "know" they shot out of sequence. And their answer to my " do you know what you just did "? Yes, then my affirmation is 2nd, and I'll give'm a P.

You are being unfair to the rest of the shooters at that match.

 

Fillmore

[Big Whiskey]

Geese, I better watch for the angry mob of disgruntled past posee members that are grabbing pitchforks and clubs to come after me for cheating them out of there Caddies and 10,000 dollar prize checks.

[Six-Shot]

I went through this two years ago. The rules are contradictory regarding procedurals. I suggested the Wild Bunch and the TG's address this issue and clarify the rules at their End of Trail meeting. IMO when there is a recurring issue repeatedly that is an indication there is a problem with the rule.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I went through this two years ago. The rules are contradictory regarding procedurals. I suggested the Wild Bunch and the TG's address this issue and clarify the rules at their End of Trail meeting. IMO when there is a recurring issue repeatedly that is an indication there is a problem with the rule.

How are the rules on Ps contradictory?