The Incognito Bandito Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Really want a Bond Derringer and the choice is between the Texas Defender and the Cowboy model...but that's not the question I have. Is there any noticeable accuracy difference between a dedicated .45 Colt only barrel and a combination .45 Colt/.410 gauge shotgun barrel? I've read different opinions about the Taurus Judge that their accuracy with .45 Colt rounds can vary. So I wonder if the Bond Arms firearms might be afflicted with the same issues. I plan on using the Bond derringer for Side matches, plinking at the range and a little self defense carry too. So I know that at cowboy distances it doesn't need to deliver sniper level groups, but what fun is an inaccurate gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Fire one BEFORE you buy. Recoil is VERY strong in .45Colt and 410 is painfull. Mine is .38/357 and .22, good shooter. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 I would suggest getting a couple of barrel options. Caliber of your choice, but I like the .410 as a last ditch effort and a .22 to plink/practice. Finally, a .32 or .38 for side matches. Blue Wolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee Kliff Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Been thinking about a derringer myself, in particular, a Bond Cowboy Defender, chambered for 357/38spl. Mainly for concealed carry. What has spurred even more interest now, is the mention of side matches, with derringers. Just how are these matches put together, or better yet, can someone explain a stage with the derringer? Is it the only weapon used in the side match? See, I'm completely in the dark on this subject, and need a light light to be shone down. Someone please explain, if you can. And suggestions about caliber for side matches, etc, anything and everything you can tell me will be appreciated. Thanks again guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Really want a Bond Derringer and the choice is between the Texas Defender and the Cowboy model...but that's not the question I have. Is there any noticeable accuracy difference between a dedicated .45 Colt only barrel and a combination .45 Colt/.410 gauge shotgun barrel? I've read different opinions about the Taurus Judge that their accuracy with .45 Colt rounds can vary. So I wonder if the Bond Arms firearms might be afflicted with the same issues. I plan on using the Bond derringer for Side matches, plinking at the range and a little self defense carry too. So I know that at cowboy distances it doesn't need to deliver sniper level groups, but what fun is an inaccurate gun? What I've found is that regardless of barrel length and/or caliber, the top barrel groups pretty well with other shots from the top barrel. The bottom barrel groups pretty will with other shots from the bottom barrel. But those two sets of groups tend to be pretty far apart if the distance is beyond about six feet. What's that mean for you? Bond derringers are GREAT for cowboy side matches, they're GREAT for self defense applications, but they'd absolutely suck for bullsey shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Uhh....it's a derringer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Uhh....it's a derringer. +1, it is the difference of missing by 2" or 2 1/2". It is not a target gun. The optional caliber barrels is a big plus for Bond derringers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Been thinking about a derringer myself, in particular, a Bond Cowboy Defender, chambered for 357/38spl. Mainly for concealed carry. What has spurred even more interest now, is the mention of side matches, with derringers. Just how are these matches put together, or better yet, can someone explain a stage with the derringer? Is it the only weapon used in the side match? See, I'm completely in the dark on this subject, and need a light light to be shone down. Someone please explain, if you can. And suggestions about caliber for side matches, etc, anything and everything you can tell me will be appreciated. Thanks again guys. The Bond derringer is a great gun, I have two of them. As far as concealed carry it is not your best choice. It is heavy and difficult to operate one handed without alot of tuning and practice. Go with a small frame 38/357, much lighter and easier to operate. Derringer side matches are usually all about speed, close target across the table as fast as one can work the action. Two shots from the table in less than two seconds, sometimes a reload depending who set up the match. My wife and I have practiced long range and we can hit 12-16 inch plates @ 35 yards, that's squeezing the trigger with both index fingers at once. It takes alot of practice. Good Luck, LL' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted July 14, 2012 Share Posted July 14, 2012 Har! Kliff I cain't believe you callin' a derringer a weapon. Just HAR! None of our cowboy guns do we use as "weapons", they are just cowboy guns but a derringer most especially is not too good of a weapon. Mine is for cowboy side matches and snake-slayin' whilst fishin'. Most derringer side matches you load it and lay it on the table. The timer is laying on the table set up for no delay. Self time by putting finger on timer and when ready let the button up and let 'er rip. Two shots on one target or one shot on each of two targets. Reloading and going for 4 shots is discouraged most places and not done because folks tend to start waving those flopping barrels around under the stress of the clock. The 45C/410 is the only barrel I need for my Bond. Recoil is not that horrendous with either round, especially with cowboy 45s and birdshot 410s. Get a good grip and let 'er rip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have won a half dozen or so deringer side matches at state and regional shoots over the yrs, all with the Bond. I did experiment with a few things-the 45/410 barrel has about 1" of rifling after a large length of smooth bore and I got keyhole groups and atrocious accuracy at as little as 10 ft. The recoil is (for me) not bad at all and perfectly manageable, much better than full loaded 357, even with the 410. I have since obtained some shot capsules for the 45 colt from Speer and plan on replacing my 410 barrel with a dedicated 45 barrel, ther shot capsules work just fine for a snake load which is all I can think I would use a 410 for anyway. They are heavy the grips are small and I think a poor choice for concealed carry. The top and bottom barrel are about 8" off at 10 ft, very poorly regulated but OK at card table distances. For competition I have found the trigger guard is quicker, (most Bonds have a removable guard) jab your finger in the guard and it helps you line things up, then of course you must slip hammer quickly or someone will beat you. As has been said most shoots are only 2 shots because of the way people wave the gun around during the reload. the secret is to hold the BARREL downrange and manipulate the rest of the gun. Last yr at my regional 1.3 sec was good enough for the win, this yr at my State match 2.01 was good enough. the last few yrs matches have had an accuracy component as well. It used to be just hit the paper plate, now they have a smaller circle and hitting outside that adds a sec. A deal breaker in the times you need to win. Its a lot of fun and even better its an excuse to buy a new gun, you do need to get it out and put a couple snap caps in and practise sliphammering it if you want to be competitive, you will definately need the trigger worked and the spring lightened. One other thing, you need to grip the gun LOW on the small grip, grip it too high and the hammer runs into the web of your palm and won't cock. Now you know all I do even though I have bored most of you to death. Bandito-go with the Bond, it is the only quality deringer I have ever handled (but you pay for it) Kliff-my experience lately has been hands flat on the table, at the signal grab the gun and shoot twice, your times will generally need to be under 2 sec to be competitive Good luck Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Tombstone, SASS #49630 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Bandito-don't know the difference between the two models you mentioned but of one has no trigger guard definately go with the other one for reasons I mentioned earlier. Even the ones that have a trigger guard they can be removed if desired. Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOCBRAZOS, SASS#18033L Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Doc Tombstone 2.00 is dang good off of the table. Starting at the ready with barrel touching table the best I've seen is .78. Thats tilt and fire, bringing the gun to eye level takes way too much time. as a side note The owner of Bond Derringer was present when Richard Young aka Taquilla shot a .98 form the ready and he commented he never thought that was possible! This was about 10 years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Pain Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Since we are on the subject of Bond Derringers, if I wanted to get a used one for side matches (.38/.357) what would be a good price range for a used one? Major Payne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Incognito Bandito Posted July 15, 2012 Author Share Posted July 15, 2012 The two models i'm thinking bout are the Texas Defender and Cowboy Defender. Only difference I can find is the Texas Defender has a trigger guard which is removable, while the Cowboy has no trigger guard, just the exposed trigger. I didn't read anything in the rules which specifically prohibits a trigger guard, so If that's legal, I might go with that, just because I feel that might give better control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have owned a couple of Bond's in .45 Colt (not .45/410), .45 ACP and .357. The .45ACP was my favorite by far, but thtese guns weigh the same as a stainless J-frame. Philly Slim is exactly correct that the regulation of the two barrels is often problematic. These guns were made for shooting across a card table. If I were to buy one today, I would opt for the American Arms version. It looks more like the Remington, and the safety seems to be less intrusive. These guns were not as popular in the old West as Hollywierd would make us think. Other guns were nearly as small and had a lot more firepower. Many gamblers, including JH Hardin and Luke Short carried Colt double-actions. Merwin-Hubert double-actions were also popular. The Bond is a very good gun for what it is, but using is for serious self-defense is a bit like betting a pair of two's will win the game. There are better hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 I have the Bond Arms Defender with the 38/357, 44 special, & 45/410 barrels. If you use 410 personal defense shells, it is going to kick. I don't shoot 45 and the 38 and 44 barrels are fairly accurate as long as its close (my opinion). I have used it as a concealed carry, but it is rather bulky and you only have two shots. Other options are better for this use. Good luck sorting it out. Barry Sloe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Just Plain Larry shot a 4 shot group (two from each barrel) you could cover with a coffee cup at 25 YARDS. The trick was very light loads using my 130 grain .45 bullets in Cowboy .45 Special brass. Minimizing both recoil and the weight of the bullet that leaves the gun lighter for the second shot (less change in weight between shots). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Like UB said, it's a derringer. Beyond 10', accuracy is gone. Beyond 20' with 410 shotshells, a person could stand in the holes left in the pattern. But that said, I love my Cowboy Defender. Even had it engraved. It's fun for side matches and with CCI 45 Colt shotshells, it's a good snake gun. And for a whole lotta fun, fill the 45 Colt case clear full with Goex 2f and crimp a .455 soft lead round ball into the case mouth. Shoot a side match at a paper target across the proverbial card table and watch the fun begin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Mudd Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 .38 Short Colt full of 3f; fun and reasonably accurate. Low recoil. Will try same recipe in Long Colt, now that I have some brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Uhh....it's a derringer. When I first read the title... I thought "Oxymoron" Derringer and accuracy together in the same sentence didn't seem to go together fer me.. Rance Just funnin' a little ... listen to the other pards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col. Cornelius Gilliam, SASS#5875TG Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have a Bond Derringer. I originally had the 45/410 barrel set. I was very unhappy with how it shot-accuracy wise. It would keyhole bullets at 10 yrds. I traded the 45/410 barrel and bought a 45 LC (full rifled version). Difference was night and day. I can hit SASS cowboy rifle targets at 25yrds off hand. When shooting at 25yrds, you do need to know what barrel (top or bottom) you are shooting first, so you can adjust the aiming point. Top barrel prints higher and bottom lower due to the effect of recoil (top barrel is further from hand and creates more rotation when firing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Derringer side matches usually have extremely close targets such as a paper plate oftern having a figure in the center. I have several barrels for my Bond. The .22 is best for competition but, being a dark side warthog, I use maximum loads of holy black in .45 Colt. That is not recommended for normal, sensible human beings! :-) I would NEVER bother with it for concealed carry. I use a .44 Bull Dog revolver and carry two speed loaders for that because, as the experience of more than a half century, semi-automatics once in a rare while fail to fire but that is no problem with a revolver. Following Murphey's law, those are unacceptable odds! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost, SASS #50125 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Doc Tombstone 2.00 is dang good off of the table. Starting at the ready with barrel touching table the best I've seen is .78. Thats tilt and fire, bringing the gun to eye level takes way too much time. as a side note The owner of Bond Derringer was present when Richard Young aka Taquilla shot a .98 form the ready and he commented he never thought that was possible! This was about 10 years ago! Hey Doc,Waterloo is the fastest I've shot against, but I can beat him if he slips just a little. 2011 Winter Range, he and I went down to the wire. It was a pick-up and two 6" paper targets at 4'. Waterloo finished and won with a .98 and I finished with .97 and a miss(about a 1/2" off the 2nd plate. From the ready, my fastest time is .63, but Waterloo has done a .57. He is fast. Ghost PS We both shoot the 38 Cowboy model and yes they are slicked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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