OT- semi auto recoil

[Ethan Cord]

I am a .45 acp 1911 fan. My wife does not care for the recoil of the .45 acp.

 

I was thinking .40 S&W might be ok but have been told it has as much or more recoil than the .45. Any input from someone that has shot both?

[Buckshot Frank]

IMO, 40 has a lot more felt recoil than 45. 45 is more of a push, where 40 is a snap. 40 is a high pressure round (remember it was designed with the case volume of the 10mm) that is hard to load light for. Ever notice that there is no such thing as 40+p ammo; it is because it is already at maximum pressure. Either develop a soft shooting round for the 45 (very easy to do), or get a 9mm for the wife to shoot.

[Jack Houston # 35508]

IMO, 40 has a lot more felt recoil than 45. 45 is more of a push, where 40 is a snap. 40 is a high pressure round (remember it was designed with the case volume of the 10mm) that is hard to load light for. Ever notice that there is no such thing as 40+p ammo; it is because it is already at maximum pressure. Either develop a soft shooting round for the 45 (very easy to do), or get a 9mm for the wife to shoot.

+1 .40 is very snappy!

[Chantry]

I agree, the recoil and muzzle flip from a .40 S&W is worse then a 45 ACP.

 

You didn't say whether you were looking to a plinking gun, a WB gun or a self defense gun for her.

 

For a full sized 9mm for plinking or self defense, take a hard look at the Steyr M9A1. Mild recoil, reliable and fits even the smallest hands well.

[Ethan Cord]

Sorry should have said what she wants it for. Self defense and of course she'll plink to stay proficient.

[Jackson Rose, SASS #45478]

40 is snappy but not unmanageable. I was a training officer for a 40 man police department. When we switched from 9mm to 40 S+W many officers felt that the Glock 22 in 40 was more controllable and had less recoil than the Glock 9mm. I did not notice any difference when shooting, but after shooting a large number of 40 rounds on a training day I developed tennis elbow. Guess what I am trying to say is that perceived recoil or felt recoil differs from person to person and gun to gun.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

It might be a good idea to look at using a metal frame gun vs a polymer.

Weight is in the denominator of the equation for felt recoil.

IE the heavier the gun the less felt recoil.

A light gun would kick like heck.

[Ethan Cord]

Agreed. However even my Springfield Armory 1911 was beyond what she liked in recoil.

[ShadowCatcher]

I am a .45 acp 1911 fan. My wife does not care for the recoil of the .45 acp.

 

I was thinking .40 S&W might be ok but have been told it has as much or more recoil than the .45. Any input from someone that has shot both?

Two things to consider - a steel 1911 in 9mm or a Browning Hi-power.

The 1911 makes the hottest 9mm duty ammo seem tame, and the Browning is so ergonomic the hot 9mm ammo is quite comfortable to shoot.

Some of the gun schools and some of the IDPA competitors are going that way - follow up shots (splits) are faster,

the gun holds ten, and flinching goes bye-bye in one day!

 

The BHP has the same manual of arms, but do get someone like C&S to do a proper trigger job on it - it makes it a dream.

 

It might make me a heretic to some - but I carry my BHP over the winter, and the Kahr K9 in summer.

Love my .45's, but those two are so much easier to carry and I trust CorBon DPX or Federal Hydra-Shok in either.

 

Shadow Catcher

[Utah Bob #35998]

Two things to consider - a steel 1911 in 9mm or a Browning Hi-power.

The 1911 makes the hottest 9mm duty ammo seem tame, and the Browning is so ergonomic the hot 9mm ammo is quite comfortable to shoot.

Some of the gun schools and some of the IDPA competitors are going that way - follow up shots (splits) are faster,

the gun holds ten, and flinching goes bye-bye in one day!

 

The BHP has the same manual of arms, but do get someone like C&S to do a proper trigger job on it - it makes it a dream.

 

It might make me a heretic to some - but I carry my BHP over the winter, and the Kahr K9 in summer.

Love my .45's, but those two are so much easier to carry and I trust CorBon DPX or Federal Hydra-Shok in either.

 

Shadow Catcher

 

Pretty good advice.

If the 1911 is too much for her, stay away from a 40.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yup the old standard 45 has a fair amount of recoil, plus a little twisting torque that bothers some folks wrists. And as has been noted, the 40 has more recoil than many like - plus is a snappy recoil.

 

I would recommend a 9mm. Many of my pards are getting older and are finding that they like the 9mm more and more for faster multiple shots. With the newer bullets, the 9mm is an effective self defense gun. Not is probably isn't equal to either the 45 or the 40, but it is still good and many police units have actually switched back to it - partly due to cost, I think, but our local sheriff's office is satisfied with the 9mm.

 

Some folks find that the plastic guns help with recoil, even though they are a little lighter. Others find the extra weight of others help. Of course, it is best to have the gun fit their hand! So go where you can rent and try a variety of pistols. And don't forget to try double action revolvers, in case she would prefer that. My wife does.

[slate mike sass#29204]

How about a Glock 19 or a mid or compact 1911 in 9mm?

[J. Frank Norfleet]

The 40 is snappy. Hint look at the Cartridge pressures, the 40 is high. Try a 45 GAP. Same velocity as a 45 ACP less felt recoil.

[Guest Chief]

I agree with the idea that a 40 will kick more than a 1911 45 cal. A good trade off is the browning hi power 9mm as was suggested, if it is the 1911 style that she likes look for a Star Bennifico model B in 9 mm it is almost identical to a 1911, the only problem is that they are imported and used, was the Itialian PD weopen but the cost is really not much and most of them are in excellent shape

[Rex M Rugers #6621]

My wife is also recoil-sensitive , and after trying a couple of different set-ups , I got her a Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm , and she loves it. And it is very ergonomic. I just had to get over my resistance to polymer.

Just another option to think on. Rex

[Arizona Lefty]

Any ranges around that rent guns? That is the best way to figure it out.

 

 

OR

 

You can start buying guns you "think" she will like til the safe fills up

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

The fellas are right Ethan, neither caliber is terribly female friendly. I like the S&W M&P 9mm for lighter recoil and serviceability. The M&P will fit smaller hands better. There is the full size, mid size, and now the ultra compact depending on what her favorite is.

[Darto]

I love a .45 ACP which seems very light in recoil to me, but if she says she is recoil shy, I bet when she tries at a range she will love a .380 a lot more than .40 or 9mm. Way better, I predict she would choose it even though it is a weak performer.

[Ethan Cord]

"Her" current favorite self defense gun is "my" old Taurus 5 shot .38 special snubbie. I probably should leave well enough alone and just get one for her too. She actually prefers it over the very similar S&W 5 shot, the Colt 6 shot and the Charter Arms 5 shot. My thought process is to have more than five rounds available should the need ever arise.

 

She likes shooting my old Ruger Mark II in .22 so it is not a matter of not liking semi-autos. I just would not want to bet my life on the stopping power of a .22 rimfire or a .25 acp. I have no experience with .380s so I have not even considered them.

 

I have owned three 9mm pistols over the years. The first was a S&W 559 that patterned like a shot gun at 25 feet. I also owned a P38 Walther and a Luger for a while but always returned to the .45 acp. The .45 does not work for her so the 9mm sounds like they way we are headed.

 

I like Arizona Lefty's idea about the rentals. There is a range about 40 minutes away that has guns for rent and I will probably take her there to see what they have.

 

I have always admired the Browning Hi-Power. That might work but the bottom line is it has to be what SHE likes and will feel comfortable with. The S&W M&P has a few votes here and some others are mentioned. I have never warmed up to the "plastic" guns myself, however if she prefers one and does well with it that would be what she gets.

 

Thanks for the ideas amigos!

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

My wife really likes her S&W J-frame 642 in 38 Special. Automatics didn't really appeal to her.

With the Pachmyr Gripper grips she has no problem creating 1" groups at 20' ... plenty good for SD.

[ShadowCatcher]

I love a .45 ACP which seems very light in recoil to me, but if she says she is recoil shy, I bet when she tries at a range she will love a .380 a lot more than .40 or 9mm. Way better, I predict she would choose it even though it is a weak performer.

For what it's worth, my experience teaching NRA classes and others is that the majority of .380 guns are not

very female friendly. They're predominately blow-back operated, requiring a heavy recoil spring, and they tend

to produce very snappy recoil. The Colt Government 380 models and derivatives are an excellent exception,

but having been a Walther fan (owned every variation of the PP series) for over 25 years, I can tell you

that few women take to it as well as a guns with delayed blow-back mechanisms.

 

I've given up on any blow-back pistol, modern designs can fit a 9mm into the same envelope.

 

I do like the snub .38's as an alternative, they are easy to learn and to control.

 

Most of us have friends with a variety of guns, and many shops now have rental counters,

so there is plenty of opportunity for folks to try before you buy.

 

Shadow Catcher

 

BTW - If you're feeling like you've won the lottery, take a look at the C&S Pathfinder

[Arizona Lefty]

"Her" current favorite self defense gun is "my" old Taurus 5 shot .38 special snubbie. I probably should leave well enough alone and just get one for her too. She actually prefers it over the very similar S&W 5 shot, the Colt 6 shot and the Charter Arms 5 shot. My thought process is to have more than five rounds available should the need ever arise.

 

She likes shooting my old Ruger Mark II in .22 so it is not a matter of not liking semi-autos. I just would not want to bet my life on the stopping power of a .22 rimfire or a .25 acp. I have no experience with .380s so I have not even considered them.

 

I have owned three 9mm pistols over the years. The first was a S&W 559 that patterned like a shot gun at 25 feet. I also owned a P38 Walther and a Luger for a while but always returned to the .45 acp. The .45 does not work for her so the 9mm sounds like they way we are headed.

 

I like Arizona Lefty's idea about the rentals. There is a range about 40 minutes away that has guns for rent and I will probably take her there to see what they have.

 

I have always admired the Browning Hi-Power. That might work but the bottom line is it has to be what SHE likes and will feel comfortable with. The S&W M&P has a few votes here and some others are mentioned. I have never warmed up to the "plastic" guns myself, however if she prefers one and does well with it that would be what she gets.

 

Thanks for the ideas amigos!

 

After rummaging through the safe My wife thanked me for the Model 19 Glock "I bought her,"

( I "forgot" to tell her I bought it.) It seems to be a good fit for her, so a thought for your misses to try

[Trailrider #896]

I would have to agree about the felt recoil of the .380 (aka 9mm Kurz) in blowback operated guns such as the PPKS. I haven't tried the S&W M&P in 9mm, but would expect it to be a better choice. One thing about personal defense guns is that with the right choice of ammo (Federal HydroShok, for example...or whatever the local gendarmes are using...for legal protection, in case of...), a 9mm or .38 Spl is probably enough. Remember, most of us, myself included, who want a big round with lots of "knockdown power", are NOT going looking for trouble. Cops are! That is their job. And they may need it! Just the presence of a gun may be enough to stop trouble before it starts. If not, the 9mm is probably going to be enough. For home defense, where weight and concealability isn't an issue... Well, there are many sounds in this wonderful world: children laughing, crowds cheering...but there is no sound so apt to command someone's attention...as the sound of a M97 being racked in the darkness!

 

God Bless and Keep all those who have fallen in the defense of our country. God's healing balm to those injured in that effort! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freeom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[Quick Draw Granpaw #48525]

IMO, 40 has a lot more felt recoil than 45. 45 is more of a push, where 40 is a snap. 40 is a high pressure round (remember it was designed with the case volume of the 10mm) that is hard to load light for. Ever notice that there is no such thing as 40+p ammo; it is because it is already at maximum pressure. Either develop a soft shooting round for the 45 (very easy to do), or get a 9mm for the wife to shoot.

 

I would agree the .45 is more of a push and the .40 is more of a snap.

Remember the weight if the gun and the weight if the projectile also

add to the recoil. The fit of the gun to your Ladies hand also

contributes to recoil and discomfort.

Happy trails

QDG

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

I am a .45 acp 1911 fan. My wife does not care for the recoil of the .45 acp.

 

I was thinking .40 S&W might be ok but have been told it has as much or more recoil than the .45. Any input from someone that has shot both?

 

Best bet? Take a weekend in Vegas and go to an indoor gun range that rents guns. Have her try everything from a .32 acp to the .45 acp, and figure out what SHE likes. Almost any gun is better than none, and one she likes will be used more often than one she doesn't like to shoot. There are a lot of indoor ranges in Las Vegas, and most of them will rent a variety of guns ~ just be prepared to buy their ammo. After all, it is their guns.

 

A gun for self protection is a very personal choice. Your opinion may not coincide with your wife's opinion. There is a first time for everything! And for HER gun, it is HER opinion that counts.

 

I can think of worse things than a weekend shooting with the Nevada Rangers or Silver City Shooters!

 

Buenas suerte,

eGG

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

in SD guns, the best answer is a fairly large, locked breech pistol in the lightest caliber they make one for. Typically that will be a 9MM. Probably the 92 Beretta or similar (like the Army uses.

 

Any heavier momentum is gonna be a negative, and any smaller gun if in a reasonably capable SD load, such as .380, is gonna mean a straight blow back action with a HEAVIER slide. A PPK kicks harder than a 92 Beretta.....

[Buckshot Frank]

After shooting my new Caracal F yesterday, I can firmly endorse it as the softest shooting 9mm that I have ever shot. The bore axis is 4mm lower than a Glock, so it does a great job of soaking up recoil.

 

It loved Winchester White Box (extremely accurate and soft shooting). I tried to develop a load using Clays (since I use Clays for all my cowboy guns), but came to the conclusion that Clays is not a good powder for 9mm. I worked my way up and by the time that the charge weight was high enough for good ejection, pressure signs (flattened primers) were already showing. It was like shooting a .22 though with the Clays. With a lighter recoil spring, this could be an awesome steel challenge load.

[Pee Wee #15785]

I have 3 1911's, 3.5" barrel, in .45ACP, .40 S&W, and 9mm. I have had several small size girls and older women shoot then and the .40S&W always comes in last shooting good defense rounds. Most thought that the .45 didn't pound their hand like the .40. They said that the 9mm had a sharp push then became easier to get a second shot off than the .45. Just remember she is using a gun she likes and the small 1911 won't give much of an increase in number of rounds. Most of the females didn't like the full size 1911. It was "to Big" and weighted to much to carry all the time. Most have ended up with one of the plastic 9mm handguns. One did end up with a .32ACP 1903 Hamerless Colt carrying 9 rounds and one extra magazine.

[Iron Pony]

Ethan heres another vote for 9mm over 40 for her and personally if she looking for an allo around SD type gun I'd try all the variations I could find first. Sig, Glock, SW, Springfield, Walther etc etc and for what its worth I think the polymer frame guns are actually a bit softer than steel versions.

 

PS had a H&K 40 that was the only gun I've ever owned that bugged my carpal tunnel, not sure if it was the gun or the cartridge but the combo did not work for me.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Ethan,

 

I really wanted to try WBAS; but was afraid of the recoil of the .45 1911. Hubby made me shoot 1000 rounds before my first match. I had some pain in my wrist from shooting so much to get ready for a match in less than a month. Now, I don't practice and try to shoot it once a month. It never hurts, nor does the recoil bother me. When I get my grip correct and use my sights , I can even hit the targets.

 

Have her learn to use it and practice a bit before giving up on it. I feel like, if I can use one without pain (arthritis in my right wrist where the wrist bones were removed), anyone can.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS Determination to do (shoot) something is a big help in situations like this.

[ShadowCatcher]

After shooting my new Caracal F yesterday, I can firmly endorse it as the softest shooting 9mm that I have ever shot. The bore axis is 4mm lower than a Glock, so it does a great job of soaking up recoil.

 

It loved Winchester White Box (extremely accurate and soft shooting). I tried to develop a load using Clays (since I use Clays for all my cowboy guns), but came to the conclusion that Clays is not a good powder for 9mm. I worked my way up and by the time that the charge weight was high enough for good ejection, pressure signs (flattened primers) were already showing. It was like shooting a .22 though with the Clays. With a lighter recoil spring, this could be an awesome steel challenge load.

I've had great success over the last 20 years loading 9MM FMJ practice loads using Bullseye powder.

At ~1100 f/s these reloads are accurate and have almost no dirt - just light soot. Get almost 1500 rds

to the pound. Here's the load data: Alliant Web Site.

 

Shadow Catcher

[Buckshot Frank]

I've had great success over the last 20 years loading 9MM FMJ practice loads using Bullseye powder.

At ~1100 f/s these reloads are accurate and have almost no dirt - just light soot. Get almost 1500 rds

to the pound. Here's the load data: Alliant Web Site.

 

Shadow Catcher

 

Thanks. I'll look into the Bullseye loads. I was thinking about trying WSF next. Maybe I'll buy a pound of each and have a shoot-off.

 

I decided to deconstruct the WWB load that the pistol shot so well. The OAL for the Winchesters is 1.17" which is long in comparison to most other factory loads as well as published load data (1.11 - 1.135). I then measure my chamber by loosly seating a bullet into a fired case and pushing it into the chamber until the rim seated. 1.20" . That is a long chamber! This is probably why it shot the longer Winchesters so well. Looks like 1.19" is the max that will fit into a magazine, so I'm going to shoot for about 1.18" OAL for my next loads.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

I agree with the idea that a 40 will kick more than a 1911 45 cal. A good trade off is the browning hi power 9mm as was suggested, if it is the 1911 style that she likes look for a Star Bennifico model B in 9 mm it is almost identical to a 1911, the only problem is that they are imported and used, was the Itialian PD weopen but the cost is really not much and most of them are in excellent shape

 

Also, Star has been out of business for some years now. Not that it matters to me. I still carry my Firestar M-43 in 9mm, heavy for it's size but built like a bulldozer.

[Guest Rio Grande Slim]

Having shot and reloaded for both, I can say that I agree with the majority.

the 45 has less percevied recoil than the 40. the reason is usually the make up of the firearm used.

most weapons in the 40 have at least the lower part of the frame that is a polymar not steel like the 1911.

If you want you can reload some relatively soft shooting loads and have your wife do most of her parctice with them, however, you should always tend to practice some with what will be used in the real life situations. I always practice with my hand loads, however, I will run at least 1 clip, sometimes two, depending on the rounds in said clip of the "real stuff. I do this at every practice session. You may also try some of the new selfdefense ammo from Hornaday. I know that in 22 mag, as well in 9mm it is not near as abrasive as some of the other "self defense" loads and this is from shooting it out of a 2 barrel deringer.

Just my 2cents.

[Ethan Cord]

I took her to the gun show today do she could get a hands on feel for the guns. It appears she likes the S&W MP9 and Springfield XD 9 best out of everything she held.

 

She has small hands and these had the best ergonomics for her.

 

Now I need to find a range that has these in their rental selection.