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You Make the Call


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I am addressing the folks who say it is a "no call" because the XP picked up the gun before the shooter could see the closed lever for himself, and/or the folks that would be a MD who would reverse the call because the shooter protested he "saw" the lever open as he moved to the next gun. Anyone that would call, or uphold, a minor safety, I am in complete agreement. KCDrover

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It goes without saying, but should always be re-affirmed about not touching a gun under penalty. But, when it does happen...

 

Many penalty calls are not possible to review afterwards by the shooter, such as, breaking the 170. This minor safety call doesn't require review by the shooter either. It simply requires a spotter or T/O that sees it to make the call.

 

As match director, with a timely and properly presented "protest", I would give the ones calling for the penalty to affirm they wish to stick with the call being as they saw it and then I would stand behind their call. IF the T/O saw it, and it was so, then the penalty was earned.

 

In my questioning of the the T/O, I would determine how sure he was of WHEN he saw it closed(prior to being touched?) and definitely closed(not open a very little bit). If that person is that sure of his call then I can stand behind it. SO, should the shooter.

 

On the other side of the coin, as the T/O, I wouldn't make the MSV call without being able to substantiate what I "thought" I saw in the heat of combat!

 

Don't touch a gun under penalty unless it is compromising safety.

 

I agree 100% with this analysis AND save some time typing.

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I've been giving this one a lot of thought. I'm not going to address what DID happen, only what I think SHOULD have happened.

 

If I was running the timer and thought I saw something like that I'd most definitely want to take a second, closer look before asessing a penalty. It goes right along with the miss chart; "If you think it's a miss, it's a hit." If I THINK the lever is closed, it's open.......right up until I can get a second look after the shooter is done. In this case, that wasn't possible due to the expeditor. I just can't see making that call based on the original scenario.

 

 

P.S. Comparing this to a 170 violation is invalid because it's apples to oranges. Yes, there are times when you HAVE to make a split second decision due to movement. This isn't one of those times. The RO/TO should have been able to go back and check the rifle to make 100% sure of the lever's position before making the call. Again, no call due to the rifle being handled by a third party.

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On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Shooter completes stage in a blazin' time. Except that an 'expeditor' is holding his rifle and pointing at the lever. "It's closed", says he.

 

RO says, "Yep, I saw it before he picked it up." Turns to the scorekeeper and calls, "MSV".

 

Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed. Says he ALWAYS looks back out of his peripheral vision and maintains, "That lever was open."

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

 

Let's start at the end and work our way back...

 

The match is closed for the day. Way to late to take this up. The call stands.

 

Olen

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Hi Folks,

 

If the MD had a tactful manner about reversing the call, such as focusing on the gun being moved before the stage was over and the TO/Shooter being able to inspect it when they were not under the pressure of running the stage, the TO should not feel like he/she was called a liar. The focus is on the fact that the gun was moved without time for a considered inspection not on what the TO may have thought he/she saw in the "heat of the moment."

 

BOD to the shooter.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I would also like to agree with the no call, however the rule book is pretty clear:

 

In the event a competitor feels a range officer’s ruling is in error, the ruling may be politely and immediately appealed to the Range Master/Match Director. The Range Master/Match Director will consider the appeal on grounds of policy and rules interpretation only, and their decision is final. At major matches special protest juries comprised of Territorial Governors may be empanelled to aid the Range Master/Match Director in making a reasonable judgment.

Unless I misunderstood the OP, the person waited too long to appeal. If I was the match director, and the appeal was made on the spot, I would overturn it based on all of the statements above -- the evidence was compromised.

 

 

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Also from the ROII Handbook:

 

APPEALS PROCEDURE

 

Each Range Officer shall be briefed regarding the appeals procedure. In the event a call is challenged at the line, the Chief Range Officer should know the chain of command for directing the shooter to the next higher authority to settle the dispute. It is just as important to observe an appropriate chain of command for a match as in any other organization. Remember, attitudes affect perception, and poor attitudes and shooting sports don’t mix well.

 

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Basing a BOD simply because the TO made the call in "the heat of the battle" brings ALL calls into question. They are all made in the "heat of the battle". I still haven't been told of a rule where a shooter has the right to inspect evidence. The "evidence" is the TO saw it and made the call. KCDrover

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Basing a BOD simply because the TO made the call in "the heat of the battle" brings ALL calls into question. They are all made in the "heat of the battle". I still haven't been told of a rule where a shooter has the right to inspect evidence. The "evidence" is the TO saw it and made the call. KCDrover

 

That's simply not true. ALL calls do not have to be made in the heat of the moment and I've already addressed this. In this example the TO should have been able to go back and check the position of the lever NOT in the "heat of the battle".

 

And I'm not sure why you're focusing on the shooter inspecting the evidence. The shooter isn't making the call, the TO is. Therefore the TO should be able to go back and inspect the evidence before making the call.

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Just another thought with the way this thread is going....

 

I've never been to Big National Matches...

 

I've been to big matches such as a Big State,Big area, Huge Comin' At Cha and other midwest matches..

There usually have been 2 RO's per posse.. kind of a main RO and backup for when he shoots..

 

When there has been a dispute on a call..

One of the RO's would go and find the Match Director to settle the situation and make a decision..

Myself speaking only...

I've never seen a participant directed to go and find the Match Director and tell him.. it's always been an RO that went to find him.

 

I'm still with No Call...

 

Rance <_<

Thinkin' yeah.. I know... I have little experience...

but hey.. I'm the match director.. :)

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I totally agree with this view. Yes, it MAY have been better handled if the lever/bolt closed was pointed out to the shooter. However, I have also seen a shooter argue vague rules to wit: a lever isn't closed if you can pass $1bill between the lever and stock...ahemm.. closed ain't open is the rule.

 

In this case, for those calling for "evidence" to be shown to the offending shooter, think for a moment; what if Billy Jo Shooter's best buddy saw the lever closed and XO'd that gun off the table to erase the penalty by picking it up before it was shown to the shooter?

 

My own sensibilities as a TO/RO are simply that while I don't make the rules: I do make the call. PERIOD.

 

While I was not the RO nor the shooter on this particular planet. Pretend that the RO is one of the best shooters, MD's and RO's in the game and the shooter is a top gun and otherwise excellent volunteer as well.

 

All that said, also now pretend that WITHOUT INTERVIEWING THE RO.... the call was overturned.

BK,

 

I don't want to shoot on that planet. Probably not even in my shooting galazy anyway.

 

I agree with Snakebites and your post.

 

Shooter may be a best shooter, but not MD's nor RO's by the way he acted and behaved way afterwards. The MD on duty didn't do right either.

 

 

Fiction or truth, bad story here.

 

Philly Slim, if you had some doubt and wanted a second look, I have no problem with you making a no call, call, because the evidence was tampered with before you could get back to look again.

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And, I have already addressed the fact that no where in the rules does it give a shooter the necessity to view evidence for a call to be upheld. I am amazed how many people are willing to just blow off a call by a TO. If he wasn't sure, No Call. If he was sure of what he saw, I would support his call. The fact the shooter didn't see the closed lever has nothing to do with it. If you believe the shooter has to see the closed lever before the call is upheld, please tell me the rule you are basing your decision on. Thanks. KCDrover

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And, I have already addressed the fact that no where in the rules does it give a shooter the necessity to view evidence for a call to be upheld. I am amazed how many people are willing to just blow off a call by a TO. If he wasn't sure, No Call. If he was sure of what he saw, I would support his call. The fact the shooter didn't see the closed lever has nothing to do with it. If you believe the shooter has to see the closed lever before the call is upheld, please tell me the rule you are basing your decision on. Thanks. KCDrover

Sure got quiet out there... aheammmm... that's the main point of this particular YMTC for me at least. We can see that it is important for the shooter to see the offense, but it's certainly NOT required anywhere that I can find in the rules. If someone (WHERE ARE YOU, PWB?) can find the rule that allows an RO call to be o'turned because a shooter wasn't shown the offense before it was handled then will you please show/ cite what you're using?

 

To me at least, BOD doesn't EVER o'turn a call made on the line just because the gun/ evidence isn't still lying there with a body-line around it.

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...WHERE ARE YOU, PWB?

 

Hi Brother,

 

My speculation is that when Snakebite, THE CHIEF OF THE RO COMMITTEE, responds to a thread, PaleWolf might not see the need to step in. Another WAG on my part is that PWB might refer you to the RO III booklet. :unsure:;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Sure got quiet out there... aheammmm... that's the main point of this particular YMTC for me at least. We can see that it is important for the shooter to see the offense, but it's certainly NOT required anywhere that I can find in the rules. If someone (WHERE ARE YOU, PWB?) can find the rule that allows an RO call to be o'turned because a shooter wasn't shown the offense before it was handled then will you please show/ cite what you're using?

 

To me at least, BOD doesn't EVER o'turn a call made on the line just because the gun/ evidence isn't still lying there with a body-line around it.

 

Match Director is King for the day and can do just about anything s/he wants, until the tar & feathers and rope come out.

 

Ya say the RO that made the call was not even interviewed?

 

I hope the shoot was good/big enough for the shooter/MD to trade their integraty (sp) for the fame and buckle.

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Hi Brother,

 

My speculation is that when Snakebite, THE CHIEF OF THE RO COMMITTEE, responds to a thread, PaleWolf might not see the need to step in. Another WAG on my part is that PWB might refer you to the RO III booklet. :unsure:;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I knew that Snakebite sounded awful smart for a Californian. B) Wait... there's a RO, RO2, Shooter's Handbook and and and and.... is it kept in a secret, hidden bunker out in the Sonoran desert or buried deep in a Sandia Mtns cave?

 

Sounds like a great reason for a road trip! Thankfully EOT is almost here.

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I knew that Snakebite sounded awful smart for a Californian. B) Wait... there's a RO, RO2, Shooter's Handbook and and and and.... is it kept in a secret, hidden bunker out in the Sonoran desert or buried deep in a Sandia Mtns cave?

 

Sounds like a great reason for a road trip! Thankfully EOT is almost here.

Hee Hee...

 

PWB sometimes refers to it jokingly for things that are not in one of the booklets. We do know that not every thing can be in a booklet or it would look like this. :o;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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I stand by my interpretation of the initial call being improper and that a "no call" was in order.

 

That being said . . . raising a ruckus and being belligerent is not the way to deal with it. I didn't weigh in on the protest end of things. RO, XO and shooter all could have done a better job.

 

Since the MSV was for the lever being closed and no one has suggested that a case was left in the chamber, I do have to wonder if the RO or XO might have brushed against the gun at some point? Maybe the gun shifted from a hurried placement, but one thing is for sure, a shooter retrieving a gun with a closed lever is a sure fire way of the shooter knowing the lever was closed!

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If I had seen it closed as a RO I would have called it. Also any stage we run that we use a xo on like this at the begining of the stage I instruct the posse not to touch a gun if it is getting a penalty. However I have had to make MSV calls with no evidence to show the shooter. Had a staged you shot both long guns out of a window, shotgun was first then rifle with the shooter standing in the window you could not see the guns staged. When he got done shooting and moved to the other opening I seen the hull in his shotgun, no point saying anything as he already shot the rifle and earned a MSV. so followed him to the other opening to finish the stage. When we came back to the shotgun it was empty. When I ask what happened to the hull one of his friends said he had seen it so he cleared the so he wouldn't get a MSV. The shooter still got the MSV. even though I couldn't show him. :rolleyes:

BT

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When I ask what happened to the hull one of his friends said he had seen it so he cleared the so he wouldn't get a MSV. :rolleyes:

BT

 

I have seen this happen more than ince with the RO clearing the hull. That's the buddy system at work.

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Seems to me like this shooter would have argued even if shown a closed lever. "I saw it open when I set it down. Somebody must have closed the lever! You are all cheaters! WAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

 

This is really not much different than how it went down. Is it?

 

PossumSkinnerMarsupialJediGunfighter

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Seems to me like this shooter would have argued even if shown a closed lever. "I saw it open when I set it down. Somebody must have closed the lever! You are all cheaters! WAAAAAAAAAAAA!"

 

This is really not much different than how it went down. Is it?

 

PossumSkinnerMarsupialJediGunfighter

 

...or tried to invoke the "shag carpet rule" (this can be found in subsection 2c of the "scabbard rule") <_<

 

Re: the cited reference in post #79:

Remember, attitudes affect perception, and poor attitudes and shooting sports don’t mix well.

 

...depending on how hard the shooter "hit the ceiling"...the MSV call might be rendered moot in light of a potential MDQ.

Ref: RO1 p.25

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...or tried to invoke the "shag carpet rule" (this can be found in subsection 2c of the "scabbard rule") <_<

 

Re: the cited reference in post #79:

 

 

...depending on how hard the shooter "hit the ceiling"...the MSV call might be rendered moot in light of a potential MDQ.

Ref: RO1 p.25

 

And all God's people said.......

 

AMEN

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Brother King

 

I don't like your planet..........it's too bizarro!!!!!!!!!

 

Wyatt

No wonder I feel so comfortable there... the fine folks dress like cowboys and cowgirls. Then they strap on 6 guns and act like each bullet is sent downrange for Olympic Gold! YEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAWWWWWW

 

For what it's worth and to answer multitudinous emails: It really doesn't matter who the shooters may or may not be real or imagined. Nor does it make much difference where the match was or wasn't shot.

 

As a shooter who has been burned by guns XO'd to the ULT, I'd like to raise awareness about the need for a shooter to handle their own guns or be willing to accept the call as made by the RO.

 

Dang tough to have it both ways when such a call basically ends any competition for that shooter. "YEAH, BUT ARE YA HAVING FUN?" :DB)

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:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

No proof-No call.

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The to me points to the need for what has already been mentioned. The rules in WBAS state that ONLY the competitor may touch his/her guns. This would solve any future problems.

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If I picked the TO, then I back him and the people he appointed to tell the truth or I over rule them and quit cause I am incompentent.

 

Whiners are whiners but either you believe in your people or not.

 

Cheers and happy to not be here,

BJT

 

On a planet far far away something like this happened:

 

Shooter completes stage in a blazin' time. Except that an 'expeditor' is holding his rifle and pointing at the lever. "It's closed", says he.

 

RO says, "Yep, I saw it before he picked it up." Turns to the scorekeeper and calls, "MSV".

 

Shooter hits the ceiling, heads to the clouds and ricochets off the moon. "Are you calling me a liar?", asks the RO? Shooter then expresses his total disagreement that the lever was closed. Says he ALWAYS looks back out of his peripheral vision and maintains, "That lever was open."

 

Later, after the match is closed for the day, the shooter escalates his disagreement to a formal protest.

 

You're the Match Director and get the information as presented. What's your call and what is your procedure for making the call?

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Be careful. They could figure out what a nice guy you are and your reputation could be ruined.

 

Miss ya.

 

Excuse me, but you are needed here...afterall, there has to be a bit of reality and common sense interjected on occassion.

 

;)

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