Waco Jim Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 In our morning discussion over coffee this morning one of my Pards and I were discussing the merits of using a pump rifle instead of a lever rifle for Cowboy action shooting. Cimarron sells these copies of the Winchester first introduced in 1884 in assorted barrel lengths. Although they are more expensive than the 1873, they are available and I'm wondering why more cowboys aren't using them. Are they more prone to break? Difficult to stay on target when cycling the pump? My Pard thinks with the short stroke of the slide, it would be a natural for fast multiple shots. Anyone have experience with these great looking guns? Waco Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Beady Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 You're probably going to get a lot of responses. Here's a summary: When first introduced, repro Uberti Lightnings tended to fall apart, jam, whatever. Recently, a CAS shooter (forget his name) managed to solve the problem aftermarket. Meanwhile, Pedersoli among other things completely reworked the Lighning's innards and came up a winner. I don't know about the current crop of out-of-the-box Uberti's, but I have one of the Pedersoli's in 45LC, and it's my favorite main-match rifle. Not a jam, crack, break, sproing or oh s**t after a year's use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Howdy Just a minor correction. Winchester never made a pump action rifle in the time period we are discussing. The Lightning rifle you are referring to was made by Colt. When the replica Colt Lightning rifles first appeared on the market a number of years ago there was a great hue and cry and great gnashing of teeth that they would alter the game forever. It turns out that even though the bugs have been worked out with some of them, most shooters feel that a lever rifle is steadier and a pump action rifle tends to bounce around more when working the action. That is one reason why sales of the Lightning never took off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 They look great hanging on a wall LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waco Jim Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 Howdy Just a minor correction. Winchester never made a pump action rifle in the time period we are discussing. The Lightning rifle you are referring to was made by Colt. Correction noted and I think I knew that, Winchester just poped into my brain. Waco Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Have only seen one shooter using a pump rifle at record like speeds. That was Lassiter, at WR. He was our posse Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 What Driftwood said. Even if you have one that performs flawlessly, you are constantly moving your main supporting hand, making it difficult to keep the front sight steady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hooker Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 No one has mentioned it yet, but F' Gawd's sakes, avoid the Taurus like the plague!!!! ONE guy, after months and months of work, got one to work, but, beyond that, the consensus is that they make good boat anchors or tomato stakes or lamp stands, but NOT guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Jammamatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 What Driftwood said. Even if you have one that performs flawlessly, you are constantly moving your main supporting hand, making it difficult to keep the front sight steady. Mine (AWA) works fine, even with BP loads, but I can't keep the front sight steady enough to use it over my 73. I've seen shooters that can though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Lassiter, who truly loves a challenge, shoots a Uberti "Lightning" as his main match rifle and does quite well with it. He has also invested probably hundreds of hours in making it run and keeping it running. And, knowing Tom, he has probably spent hundreds of hours praticing with this rifle. If this type rifle offered any overall advantage over the lever actions you'd see more top shooters using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Beady Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 If this type rifle offered any overall advantage over the lever actions you'd see more top shooters using them. That's probably true. OTOH, I doubt there are many top shooters who are into this sport for the same reasons I am. I think I'll keep shooting my Lightning at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 The Lightning rifle that Cimarron sells is the Pedersoli. But being Pedersolis they were quite expensive and therefore didn't sell that well, despite generally having the best out-of-box reliability. The poor reputation that many Lightning clones had before the Pedersoli came out didn't help matters any. So they are being closed out. I think one of the other importers is doing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carolina Gunslinger Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Respectfully I believe that at the distances shot the movement of the sights is negligible. Those who have the greatest movement are likely those that have not endeavored to add finesse to their cycling stroke instead making believe that it is a pump shotgun which it clearly isn't. I have found that I can make one work with the right technique, but why bother when it is so much easier to run a '73? Taurus is junk. I traded a perfectly functional pistol to find this out. While I am thankful for the education it has given me it has taught me not to buck the tide if you want to go fast. I have not given up on the Taurus, but I am not happy with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Shot with a pard that could make the Lighting Sing ,,,,,,,,,,, He's from Nevada ,,,,, Elrod ..... But I ain't seen a lot of them used in our game up here .... Did have the pleasure of shooting Elrod's real Colt and his Ladies Lighting as well ... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backshootin beauford mcgee Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Have only seen one shooter using a pump rifle at record like speeds. That was Lassiter, at WR. He was our posse Marshall. Lassiter is the only guy I have seen who can make a lightning run without probelms too. He fixed a pair for a couple who shoot a pair at a local club. Lassiter shure runs his fast too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McKenzie River Drifter, #74138 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Got to watch Deadly Headlys daughter shoot one at The Last Stand. Simply amazing. I have seen lots of others shoot them without good fast results. A few can, most do not seem to be able to. Just the view from my rocking horse. McKenzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I had aq "T-bolt" and tried all the recommended fixes, to no avail. I practiced a lot, and started short stroking my '97. Sold it to another club (non SASS) member who has no trouble with it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Two Fingers Slim Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 When I was a kid (12 years old) my Grandfather's friend had an original Colt Lighting with a 18" barrel in 38 Long Colt. On the barrel was stamped "For Wells Fargo Only". We were told by my Grandfather's friend that only 12 rifles of this model were made for Wells Fargo,don't know if this is true, but when I went deer hunting with them I got to carry this fine old rifle and it sure does bring on the old memories of days gone by...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Creek Gus SASS #64320 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I have a friend who bought one of AWA's Lightening which worked well out of the Box. The only problem he had was when he was loading it he would sometimes have a cartridge go in wrong and then he would have to disassemble the gun to fix the problem. I tried shooting it but found it was harder to keep the sights on target. Because I was cycling the action with my left hand which was further from my shoulder the tendency was to move the rifle more while cycling. With my '73 that movement is much less. If you think about it this makes sense. Cycling the pump with the left hand with the hand further out while the right hand on the grip tried to hold the rifle steady means the hand doing the cycling(left) has a 2 to 1 advantage over the right hand which is trying to hold it steady. While cycling the lever action rifle the right hand is doing the cycling while the left hand tries to hold the rifle steady. In this case the hand trying to hold the rifle steady has a 2 to 1 advantage over the hand doing the cycling. When they first were announced I thought the Lightening would be the "cat's meow" but after seeing all the problems with them and not being as steady when cycling I'll stick with my lever action. I will also say I very seldom see a shooter using a Lightening go through a complete match without having a problem somewhere along the line. Sage Creek Gus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433 Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Waco Jim, Has anyone ever told you that you are a dead ringer for Sam Elliot? Now I am gonna do what he and Robert Mitchum recommend and have beef for dinner!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artic Fox, SASS# 39883 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Here is Lassiter doing three things that are normally considered "slower". Was waitin' ta hear some 'thunder' after that Lightning run, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Here is Lassiter doing three things that are normally considered "slower". Was waitin' ta hear some 'thunder' after that Lightning run, eh? I think I have a new hero. Sorry Nuttin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Respectfully, even though Lassiter did a commendable job with the lightning, FOR WHAT IT IS, I am quite sure he can run faster with a '73 on the same stage. Heck fire, I'm nobody's world record rifle shooter, but I CAN run a slick '73 at least that fast, and lots can rum em faster. The problems inherent with the slide action design make it only about as good for most people as a comparably smithed '92, (which is a very similar feeding arrangement), and it is NOT as reliable or smooth to operate as a '73. To the OP, I would say, YES they look good over coffee, but when the timer beeps, that dream very often goes up in smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Gregg Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Never seen anyone faster with a real Colt Lightning than Wild Ben Raymond of Soiux City. He holds a 1.92 sec 10-shot world record. Mustang Gregg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Beady Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Was reading Guns of the New West last night, and Chicoin(sp?) loved the AWA Lightning. His initial reaction after firing it was "WOW." His words, not mine. Gus, you say "I will also say I very seldom see a shooter using a Lightening go through a complete match without having a problem somewhere along the line." Mine has yet to give me a problem, but my '73 (and my '76) gives me an occasional jam especially on the first shot each magazine. It eventually will have a problem, most machines do. At that point, I expect to hear someone say "See? They always break down." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LASSITER#2080 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Yes I use a Lightning rifle, I also use an 87 shotgun. When I started to play with them it was not my intent to replace my 73 and 97.I found that I could be faster with the Lightning and 87 when they were properly set up. The Lightning is harder to keep on target then a 73 but you can learn to do it if you put in the time. I am faster with the Lightning then my 73.The fastest 10 shot dump I ever did with the 73 was a 2.07. I have been under 2 seconds many times with the Lightning and the fastest run has been a 1.93. It can be picked up and set down faster then a 73 and you do not have to worry about closing the lever.I can run times that are very close to the same using either rifle but the Lightning edges out the 73. It took a little over 130 hours of R&D to get this gun to this level. It was not a labor of love. I would not recommend the Lightning for a new shooter, the 73 is a time tested veteran of our sport that has proven reliability. However if you like a challenge and are willing to put in the time and energy it is a blast to shoot one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chance Derringer, SASS #19985 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I have only been shooting a Lightning regularly for 3 months now & already run it faster than my short stroked 73. Initially, I did have trouble keeping it on target during cycling, but I have found that if I keep a firm grip & rearward pressure with my right hand, this issue has been eliminated. I picked up this used AWA 38sp with 20" barrel at Cabelas for $500 & it has cycled flawlessly every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hannie Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I would say that a good Pedersoli made can be made to run as pointed out probably like a 92. For me, I shoot for fun, if you are looking for pure competition I think the 73 is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I would say that a good Pedersoli made can be made to run as pointed out probably like a 92. For me, I shoot for fun, if you are looking for pure competition I think the 73 is the way to go. I don't know that I have seen anyone running a 92 under 2.00 for a 10 shot dump. I'm sure one will probably pop up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Shooter Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Yes I use a Lightning rifle, I also use an 87 shotgun. When I started to play with them it was not my intent to replace my 73 and 97.I found that I could be faster with the Lightning and 87 when they were properly set up. The Lightning is harder to keep on target then a 73 but you can learn to do it if you put in the time. I am faster with the Lightning then my 73.The fastest 10 shot dump I ever did with the 73 was a 2.07. I have been under 2 seconds many times with the Lightning and the fastest run has been a 1.93. It can be picked up and set down faster then a 73 and you do not have to worry about closing the lever.I can run times that are very close to the same using either rifle but the Lightning edges out the 73. It took a little over 130 hours of R&D to get this gun to this level. It was not a labor of love. I would not recommend the Lightning for a new shooter, the 73 is a time tested veteran of our sport that has proven reliability. However if you like a challenge and are willing to put in the time and energy it is a blast to shoot one. Lassiter, I am on a quest to setup my Lightning rifle for CAS. I would appreciate it if you would post information on the COL of your rounds, bullet type (shape, weight, and maker), and if you use .38 or .357 cases. Also, who manufactured your Lightning? Thanks, Photo Shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LASSITER#2080 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Photo, Give me a call one evening at 937-687-1039 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 One of the things I love about Cowboy Action Shooting is how it allows me to indulge in my passion for interesting old firearms. About two years ago, a bug bit me bad to aquire a Lightning rifle so as to have another toy to play with. After reading much commentary on the Wire, here is a run down of the general opinion of the various makers that seemed to be repeated quite often... AWA: Good Pedersoli: Good, but expensive USFA: Mixed reaction. Some said it was good, some said it was fair, some said it was junk. All agreed that they were next to impossible to find. Uberti: Fair Taurus: Disgustingly bad. I can not overstate how negative the reactions to this rifle were. Original Colts: Similar to the USFA. Some folks have said that they have ones that run like dream, others have said that they are nothing but problems. Hit or miss, I guess. Which was all fine and good, but when it came time for me to actually BUY one, I compared the ones I could find at local gunshops. Handled a Taurus. The action felt like trying to pull sandpaper over sandpaper. Handled a Beretta. Better than the Taurus, but felt kinda klunky to me. Handled an AWA. Action cycled as smooth as butter. I bought the AWA. So far, I have used it at a handful of matches, and it has perfomed flawlessly with my reloaded .45 Colt ammo, the same 200 grain bullet I use in my revolvers over a charge of Trailboss. Never given me even a hint of trouble. And, I am much faster with it than I am with a Henry, 73 or a 92. But that's not saying a lot, as I am not by any stretch a fast shooter. Never had any problem hitting the targets with it, running it as fast as I can. When all is said and done, it is just a durn FUN gun to shoot, and if you want one, I say go for it. I'll also recommend the AWA. In fact, if they were legal in my state, I'd be getting one of the AWA pistols they make with this action. That's how much fun they are. Good luck, and happy shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayrock, SASS #64093 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 look at this post: http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=167713&st=0&p=2164587&hl=thunderbolt&fromsearch=1entry2164587 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 No one has mentioned it yet, but F' Gawd's sakes, avoid the Taurus like the plague!!!! ONE guy, after months and months of work, got one to work, but, beyond that, the consensus is that they make good boat anchors or tomato stakes or lamp stands, but NOT guns. That would be Deadeye Dallas. He's put up a number of posts with videos detailing everything he's done to them to make them run. It's not a job for the kitchen table tinkerer or the faint of heart. If you do a search, the threads might still be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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