Noz Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 We really need to stop worrying about one or two A-holes and what they MIGHT do. Knee-jerk reactions to these types of people ends up hurting the majority of folks more then the occasional abuse by jerks. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Our TG announced this weekend that a New Rule will be under consideration at the Convention. If a Shooter "For ANY Reason" doesn't complete all stages in a match he/she cannot be eligible for an award! For example if they have to leave for some emergency at home or get sick and go to the hospital they can't win even if their times are good enough without the stages not finished to win or place. What's y'all's opinion? Has your TG even brought this up? I personally believe each club should be allowed to handle this exactly like they do now on a case by case, shoot by shoot basis. The only time I have seen a real issue is one club that scores by rank points within the category and a several folks that did not shoot the second day of the major yearly match because of terrible weather finished higher and got awards rather than some of those that braved the elements the second day. Since that match the club has fixed this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I think that proposal stinks!!!!!!!!!!!! do you want to know how I really feel about it???? another make a new rule for a few.....good grief... Cheyenne Same thought here pard.... GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Hi Jack, To answer your question, this subject has been on the TG Wire in recaps of TG meetings at big matches. IIRC, once from EOT and recently from Guns of August. I forwared both of these recaps to club members without editorial. Later, when the agenda is finalized, I will send them the pros and cons, for them to make an educated decision. I will vote their wishes. I don't like giving a DNF the same weight in scoring as a MDQ. Also, folks with SDQs could still win category awards. Not finishing should not have a harsher penalty than a major safety issue. After shooting through (12 stages) and two Plainsman stages, I almost did not finish the last two (of 14 total) stages. I probalbly should have quit as I became increasingly nauseated from heat and insufficient water. (I was shooting through to spend the next two days scoring.) It took me several hours to get back to normal. After that experience, I would not want to penalize someone who had the good sense to quit and get rehydrated. I was lucky it wasn't worse. It has been discussed that the Match Director could allow the DNF to be scored as it was in the past if there was a "valid" reason for the DNF. I don't like the idea of allowing this subjectivity in scoring. Regards, Allie Mo PS Jackie, good to see you back on the Wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 If Dan amasses more points in eleven stages than I can in twelve, YEE HAA for Dan If Dan amasses more points in ten stages than I can in twelve, YEE HAA for Dan If Dan amasses more points in nine stages than I can in twelve, YEE HAA for Dan If Twelve Mile Reb bitches about it shame on Twelve Mile. Your Mileage may vary. 12 Oops! You mean "less points." Ya know, low score wins. I knew what you meant; but the newbies might be confused by it. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I have talked to club members, Jack. I believe it is a tempest in a teapot, because it will never get a 2/3 majority vote to pass. We can't even get FCGF to pass, and it is much less controversial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I don't have an issue with the proposal. I haven't heard my TG speak on this. I do notice that most who say they have an issue with the proposal also seem to have an issue with Rank Point Scoring. (I don't have an issue with Rank Point Scoring either) Wallaby dear, Would you like me to put you on my mailing list for more than jokes. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 No. None of the current TGs at the clubs I shoot at have mentioned this "new rule." Even in NASCAR, if you don't FINISH you don't WIN. Keeping points be dammed. If you don't shoot all the stages, you don't get the Kewpie Doll. Or at least you shouldn't. If you don't cross the finish line your an "also ran." Coffinmaker If you don't cross the finish line FIRST you are an "also ran" and depending on where, position wise, you cross the finish line and what you are competing in, you may or may not get the "Kewpie Doll". Last time I checked, NASCAR paid money to compete and even last place paid a sizeable amount of money, so the comparisons are extremely skewed. That level of competing, (not competition) is what leads to the attitude that second place is "just the first loser"! That is NOT the attitude we should be promoting in S.A.S.S.!!! Oh yeah! As to the TG in the original post, he's doing a great job keeping his constituants informed. AND if I'm reading the OP correctly there was no mention of whether this TG voiced support for the proposal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Knotwright 61300 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Then solution to "rules not working right" is NOT "more rules" --- make fewer rules!!!!! Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hacker, SASS #55963 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 So if this passes I have another rule for ya; Any shooter that wins more than 2 championships is moved to a new category PRO. They are stuck in PRO forever! There are no subdivisions within PRO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hombre #23212 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Yep I like this rule !!!!!!!!!!!! We should call it the SASS Affirmative Action rule. I mean if a Freddy Fast Fingers can take 1 or 2 DNFs and still beat me, he’s got to go!!! Dang it boys…How am I ever going to get me one of them shinny new buckles, if I have to earn it!!!!! BH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 We should call it the SASS Affirmative Action rule. BH That's the best one liner yet Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 NO NEW TAXES!!!! GG ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 So if this passes I have another rule for ya; Any shooter that wins more than 2 championships is moved to a new category PRO. They are stuck in PRO forever! There are no subdivisions within PRO. Interesting concept. Just need another name than PRO cause no one is paying the shooter to shoot... well, except for those few that have sponsorships already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 No have not heard about it. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Will Lee Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 To have to finish something to win - that seems like a novel idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I haven't heard of this proposal. I hope it goes no where, though. It seem the folks that are for it either don't understand rank point scoring or they are also against rank points anyway. If this were a gunfight the fastest guy with the most hits wins. You may have got off a few good fast shots but you are still dead. No more rules. Leave it alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I don't understand why such a storm in a water bucket!!! ROI handbook page 24: "The recommended score for not finishing a stage is a SDQ".. by definition not shooting a stage is not finishing a stage, so SDQ. The call is "recommended" so it can be found some arrangements for health problems, as we don't have to be hard asses. ROI page 26 "MDQ": "two accumulated SDQ or two SOG assesments".. so 2 or more DNF are an MDQ..... IMHO with an MDQ you cannot be elligible for an award..... All is already in the rules! T'Was my two cents worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Curly Red Ryder, The rule being discussed would make a single DNF, the same penalty as a match DQ. Hope to see you at the Convention. Roo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Wallaby dear, Would you like me to put you on my mailing list for more than jokes. Allie .... yes please Ma'am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted August 22, 2011 Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 Forget this rule and get rid of empty hulls in a shotgun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I don't understand why such a storm in a water bucket!!! ROI handbook page 24: "The recommended score for not finishing a stage is a SDQ".. by definition not shooting a stage is not finishing a stage, so SDQ. The call is "recommended" so it can be found some arrangements for health problems, as we don't have to be hard asses. ROI page 26 "MDQ": "two accumulated SDQ or two SOG assesments".. so 2 or more DNF are an MDQ..... IMHO with an MDQ you cannot be elligible for an award..... All is already in the rules! T'Was my two cents worth I will add my 2cent to your 2cents and now it is up to 4cents, and that (what you have stated) makes alot of sense for this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 .... yes please Ma'am Done! Test sent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I don't understand why such a storm in a water bucket!!! ROI handbook page 24: "The recommended score for not finishing a stage is a SDQ".. by definition not shooting a stage is not finishing a stage, so SDQ. The call is "recommended" so it can be found some arrangements for health problems, as we don't have to be hard asses. ROI page 26 "MDQ": "two accumulated SDQ or two SOG assesments".. so 2 or more DNF are an MDQ..... IMHO with an MDQ you cannot be elligible for an award..... All is already in the rules! T'Was my two cents worth Hi Dear Friend Curly, I have never seen two DNFs scored as a MDQ. They have always just given the maximum rank score (total number of shooters) in the DNF stages. Please do not be offended but your post exhibits a common logical fallacy, called a prepositional fallicy. This could be a translation thingy. Your logic states that if a DNF is scored like a SDQ and two SDQs are a MDQ, then two DNFs are a MDQ. In my experience, that is not the case. A DNF merely gets the same score as a SDQ. Two SDQs = a MDQ. However, two DNFs do not equal a MDQ. There may be more than two stages scored at maximum rank if they were DNFs. This new proposal would make one DNF = MDQ. Hope that is helpful. Your friend, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 PS Look here at page 18, shooter 634, appears to not have finished the match as there are scores for some stages; but, not for 8 out of 12. Ditto page 17, shooter 620. Ditto page 16, shooter 565. This is posted to verify that the convention at EOT is not to score two or more DNFs as a MDQ. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 PS Look here at page 18, shooter 634, appears to not have finished the match as there are scores for some stages; but, not for 8 out of 12. Ditto page 17, shooter 620. Ditto page 16, shooter 565. This is posted to verify that the convention at EOT is not to score two or more DNFs as a MDQ. Regards, Allie Shooter 634 did not shoot the last 8 stages but beat by rank scoring, shooter 635,636 and 637 that shot the entire match. That's snot funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Interesting debate. While I am not a fan of more rules, and I am good with rank scoring, I personally would feel quite odd, embarrased even, by placing and accepting an award when I did not fully compete, especially if I took that award from another who did fully compete. Anyway, most people realy do like the "best 2 out of three" line of thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quick Will Lee Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 PS Look here at page 18, shooter 634, appears to not have finished the match as there are scores for some stages; but, not for 8 out of 12. Ditto page 17, shooter 620. Ditto page 16, shooter 565. I would think that anyone that shot all stages and ranked lower than 565 should have a legitimate beef with this. If I am in a bike race or run or something like that I know I am not going to come in first but at least if I make it through the whole thing I get to beat someone who did not. I guess now I know why this is a game and not a sport. QWL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 My TG did a straw pole of our thoughts on this issue at the last three major shoots up here in his territory.... Good guy and smart enough to pole those that are activley shooting the game .... Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Repeat - If a Shooter informs the Match Director that he/she cannot continue and is withdrawing from the Match - then that Shooter should not receive any score, not DNF's. A DNF, I believe, is for someone that tried to shoot a stage but did not finish due to a cramp, faint, something in the eye, etc. - Not going home. I do not believe it is appropriate for someone who withdraws from a Match to score higher than someone who completes the Match. Just add a Rule that allows a Shooter to Withdraw, with no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I thought winter was over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I thought winter was over... Your calender is obviously screwed up. Spring was about 3 weeks ago. Summer was about a week and a half ago. Fall just happened last weekend. Welcome to winter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethal Larry, SASS #58429 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Since I know who the TG is that presented the proposed rule change to his club, when I read "Tell the TG to practice more" it made me laugh. .... and "his people" didn't think this up. The TG happens to win in his category OFTEN at EVERY Level. He is just doing what a good TG does...telling his club about any proposed rules so he will know how his club wants him to vote on it. Well stated! I could not agree with you more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 I just spent 6 weeks in Texas and I assure you that winter is a long, long way off. DNF for any reason NOT SUBJECT TO SASS RULES (medical, family emergency, etc) should not affect rank scoring. You earns what you earns and that's that. HOWSOMEVER!!!! SDQ/ MDQ for any stage should DEFINITELY affect the rank system in such a way as to actually penalize the shooter out of the awards system. For example, if a shooter MDQ's and is the only shooter in their category then the award for the category should be shelved. If there are 2 shooters in a category then SDQ's should penalize the shooter such that they qualify for an award after all shooters without any major safety penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 here is my nickles worth, I like the rule, I am of the mind set if you do not finish for what ever reason you should not get any award. I have heard of Shoot throws to many time where if somebody has to leave for what ever reason they could, after making some kind of arrangement with the match director. If winning, bragging rights and that imaginary Cadillac is that important to you that you would risk your health to win, then stay around and shot instead of going home. Now I know Badlands Bud can kick my a$$ 10 ways from Sunday, in his sleep, both hands tied behind is back or what ever saying you want to use but if he did not finish I don't expect to see him get an award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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