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Subdeacon Joe

Question For LEOs

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HTH must be havin' a bad day. :blink: This is EXACTLY what the Saloon is for -- to discuss topics not related to CAS. We may not like the topic, but it is no reason to attack people. He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

Hello Okie,

 

I've noticed HTH's posts for a long time... I've even agreed with him. ;)

 

Dear HTH, sometimes you seem a bit testy. There is a certain harshness and negativity to your posts. I'm not saying you are a bad guy. That's just my observation.

 

Just because someone in the same profession as you is criticized, it is not an attack on you. Hey, I'm a retired government worker. If I took every attack on government workers personally, I'd be cranky some of the time too.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Hello Okie,

 

I've noticed HTH's posts for a long time... I've even agreed with him. ;)

 

Dear HTH, sometimes you seem a bit testy. There is a certain harshness and negativity to your posts. I'm not saying you are a bad guy. That's just my observation.

 

Just because someone in the same profession as you is criticized, it is not an attack on you. Hey, I'm a retired government worker. If I took every attack on government workers personally, I'd be cranky some of the time too.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

Well that explains everything!!! :P

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

(ya know I'm funnin' right?)

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Right there is half the problem with bad LEO's: other LEO's don't want to do anything about it.:

 

You paint with a broad brush Amigo.

That's the problem with discussions like these. Generalities. Not all priests defend the pedophiles in their ranks. Not all politicians are crooked.

LEOs do want to do something about bad ones. I have investigated bad ones. I have fired bad ones. I have arrested bad ones and pushed for their convictions. One thing we insist on is a thorough investigation be conducted before the hanging.

Videos sometimes show the whole story sometimes not. Sometimes complainants lie, sometimes the cops do. That's what an investigation attempts to determine.

 

 

I frequent several forums, and whenever a topic like this comes up, the LEO's will speak to the fact that this is a problem which makes their own job more difficult. But if a non-LEO speaks up and says "yeah, this one time..." the immediate response is "well that's your story but we haven't heard the officer's side of it, and you don't understand what it's like to be a police officer..." The presumption being that the citizen has every reason to lie and/or exaggerate, while the LEO should be beyond reproach.

As far as "the other forums" remember that only a tiny percentage of people in any given profession are participating so try not to judge a whole group by what some individuals post. Remember you don't know the background of folks in forums. They are seldom vetted. LEOs are not beyond reproach but there are two sides to EVERY story. That's why we have judges and juries. To find out which side is right.

 

Tarheel Ranger's post may give folks some insight into the problem of what we call Gypsy Cops who bounce from department to department one step ahead of the hammer. I don't like them. They tarnish the badge.

 

And Allie, you'll have to try to understand the passion officers bring to their calling. It's a little different than just being a govt employee. We've seen our brother officers crippled physically, emotionally, and killed in the line of duty and we do take it kinda personal. Maybe we shouldn't but we can't help it sometimes.

 

There are bad cops. We all know it. They should not be tolerated.

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He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

I heard from a friend who's cousin has it on good authority from her neighbor's brother that there's a doctor in Tumwater, Washington who "buffaloes" his patients with a pistol instead of using anesthesia. Word is he's a real cowboy. :D

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I heard from a friend who's cousin has it on good authority from her neighbor's brother that there's a doctor in Tumwater, Washington who "buffaloes" his patients with a pistol instead of using anesthesia.:D

 

Say what? Are you sure you are not a speechwriter masquerading as a cowboy?

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He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

 

Mal Practice. Good alias. :lol:

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I heard from a friend who's cousin has it on good authority from her neighbor's brother that there's a doctor in Tumwater, Washington who "buffaloes" his patients with a pistol instead of using anesthesia. Word is he's a real cowboy. :D

 

Saves a lot of time. Leaves more time for my nap. :lol:

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I heard from a friend who's cousin has it on good authority from her neighbor's brother that there's a doctor in Tumwater, Washington who "buffaloes" his patients with a pistol instead of using anesthesia. Word is he's a real cowboy. :D

 

 

Well shoot - get him a SASS application....:P

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Hello Okie,

 

I've noticed HTH's posts for a long time... I've even agreed with him. ;)

 

Dear HTH, sometimes you seem a bit testy. There is a certain harshness and negativity to your posts. I'm not saying you are a bad guy. That's just my observation.

 

Just because someone in the same profession as you is criticized, it is not an attack on you. Hey, I'm a retired government worker. If I took every attack on government workers personally, I'd be cranky some of the time too.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

SOME of the time? :lol:

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Here in Georgia we're much more hopspitable to our guests. And this is a casual social forum, I wasn't aware all discussions had to relate to SASS, seenin as an awful lot have nothing to do with SASS. Are we supposed to don our hats, boots and holsters to post?

 

Actually it’s my birthday and I’m having a great day.

That said I’m damn tired of those who troll for stories about possible police misconduct just so they can advance their anti police bias. Yes the saloon is open for discussion of any topic but there seems to be an abundance of this type of one sided anti police crap here.

Why is it that people who believe nothing printed by the media is the truth will suddenly take an anti police story as the gospel? Have any of you heard the other side of the story? Didn’t think so.

We are on a record pace for officers killed in the line of duty this year, with thousands more injured critically enough to never be able to return to duty, I spent 40 years of my life as a police officer and no I won’t sit quietly and watch my brothers denigrated by those whose only experience in law enforcement is what they see from he safety their recliner.

And any “guest” that is still here as long as the OP has been is a freeloader.

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Saves a lot of time. Leaves more time for my nap. :lol:

 

Do you take this nap before, after or during surgery?

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You have a lot to say for someone who is a guest in the house

This has nothing at all to do with SASS and I'm tired of seeing fools like you posting this crap everytime they think a cop screwed up.

One of the very last arrests I made was a church deacon who molested a 12 year old girl and drug her through three years of hell before he admitted to the crime.

DID YOU SEE THAT POSTED HERE! no of course not because it had nothing to do with SASS

 

Now pay up or shut up

 

Wow, possibly one of the most rude inappropriate responses I've seen in my short time here on the wire. As others have said this portion of the wire is for topics that are not necessarily related to SASS, so there is no foul on the OPs part there. If admin did not want non members posting they could easily prevent them, so clearly they don't have a problem with it. IMNSHO nor should you. If you get that upset over a thread on the Internet I shudder to think how you react to stressful life and death situations when you're on duty. The OP and I were on opposite sides of he last discussion regarding LEOs, but on this one I think he nailed it, and even if he didn't I don't think silencing those I disagree with is appropriate.

 

Here is a link to the video, I would be curious to hear you defend the officer in question once you have observed his conduct for yourself.

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/21/video-police-officer-threatens-concealed-carry-driver-with-execution-beating/

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Hey Bobby, I get it.

 

Subdeacon Joe, after 3759 posts, it really is time you join SASS and help us pay for the Wire. Calling you a "freeloader" is a bit harsh. ;) HTH, see what I'm talking about.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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LEOs are not beyond reproach but there are two sides to EVERY story. That's why we have judges and juries. To find out which side is right.

Only if there is a dash camera or some other recorded evidence. Otherwise, the LEO's testimony is given much more weight than the citizen who, after all, is being accused of a crime. No?

 

How about, "too many other LEO's aren't willing to do anything about it"?

Or, "lacking any video evidence to the contrary, many LEO's will reflexively side with their fellow officers"?

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Utah Bob is smart guy, I've seen enough of his posts to know. I refuse to believe he isn't aware of the existence of an us vs them mentality in some LEOs. And I certainly do NOT mean that as a slam on LE, far from it. With all the crap many of them face every day and the always present possibility of not getting home to their families, a bit of that is understandable. As a civilian I would give the LEO the benefit of the doubt too, absent convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

In this case though........ :blink:

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Utah Bob is smart guy...

He is definitely one of the more reasonable people here.

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This 4th of July weekend I came home from the Hell On Wheels shoot at about 4pm to find two of my adult aged sons hosting a party on our farm with about 10 of their buddies. Of course, there was some beer involved as well as a very fast 4 wheeler. They had been taking turns flying up and down our 1/2 mile gravel road; doing burnouts in the dirt and generally comporting themselves in a way that would make any father 1st shake his head.... and then have a beer and ride the 4 wheeler!

 

Anyway, the sheriff deputy showed up just after I finished unloading my truck of guns, ammunition, gun cart, etc. First he said that 'an individual' called saying that there was a party on my property, but that it wasn't me or anyone related to me. I made a point of thanking him for coming; agreed that it could have appeared that way; assured the deputy that it was in fact "my property" and that my sons and their friends were just being boys, not hurting anyone and were, in fact, there with my permission.

 

He asked if I had been drinking and I responded that what I do on my property is my business. He then demanded my ID. I told him it was in my front pocket and asked permission to get it (I was still dressed pretty western.) I handed him my CO DL as well as my CO CCW issued by his Sheriff. His reply was "Why did you give me this, are you armed?" I said "no" but that it was a 2nd ID with the same address as the 1st ID and that should satisfy the complaint that he stated was the reason for his visit.

 

He replied that he wasn't finished with his investigation yet. I asked if his dash camera was turned on? He looked back at the car and said, "Yes". I then told him that he was on my property and that I had proven my right to be there and that it was time for him to go. He exploded, "I'm being polite to you. Do you want me to take you in for questioning?" I told him that I was being polite, too, and that his taking me anywhere would make my day if his dash camera was actually recording this conversation. He then called in my ID and of course he received "no wants, warrants".

 

I went on to explain that I had just provided him with not 1 but 2 legal CO ID's. Explained the situation to him politely once again and stated that he was now trespassing on my property. I asked him 3 times each in response to his further questioning, ("how much have you had to drink?" "do you have firearms in your possession?" "do you have any other evidence that this is your property?") "AM I UNDER ARREST? Then will you please leave?".

 

The boys (like little munchkins) were all peeking from around their trucks. After the deputy left they decided it would be a GREAT idea to go hit balls at the driving range.

 

Better thought out... it was decided that maybe it would be a good idea to quit drinking and call for chinese food delivery first. So it ended up costing me $100 to feed them anyway. But, having never had the experience of being threatened to be "taken in", it's pretty easy to see how intimidating it is and how quickly it could go downhill fast.

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This 4th of July weekend I came home from the Hell On Wheels shoot at about 4pm to find two of my adult aged sons hosting a party on our farm with about 10 of their buddies. Of course, there was some beer involved as well as a very fast 4 wheeler. They had been taking turns flying up and down our 1/2 mile gravel road; doing burnouts in the dirt and generally comporting themselves in a way that would make any father 1st shake his head.... and then have a beer and ride the 4 wheeler!

 

Anyway, the sheriff deputy showed up just after I finished unloading my truck of guns, ammunition, gun cart, etc. First he said that 'an individual' called saying that there was a party on my property, but that it wasn't me or anyone related to me. I made a point of thanking him for coming; agreed that it could have appeared that way; assured the deputy that it was in fact "my property" and that my sons and their friends were just being boys, not hurting anyone and were, in fact, there with my permission.

 

He asked if I had been drinking and I responded that what I do on my property is my business. He then demanded my ID. I told him it was in my front pocket and asked permission to get it (I was still dressed pretty western.) I handed him my CO DL as well as my CO CCW issued by his Sheriff. His reply was "Why did you give me this, are you armed?" I said "no" but that it was a 2nd ID with the same address as the 1st ID and that should satisfy the complaint that he stated was the reason for his visit.

 

He replied that he wasn't finished with his investigation yet. I asked if his dash camera was turned on? He looked back at the car and said, "Yes". I then told him that he was on my property and that I had proven my right to be there and that it was time for him to go. He exploded, "I'm being polite to you. Do you want me to take you in for questioning?" I told him that I was being polite, too, and that his taking me anywhere would make my day if his dash camera was actually recording this conversation. He then called in my ID and of course he received "no wants, warrants".

 

I went on to explain that I had just provided him with not 1 but 2 legal CO ID's. Explained the situation to him politely once again and stated that he was now trespassing on my property. I asked him 3 times each in response to his further questioning, ("how much have you had to drink?" "do you have firearms in your possession?" "do you have any other evidence that this is your property?") "AM I UNDER ARREST? Then will you please leave?".

 

The boys (like little munchkins) were all peeking from around their trucks. After the deputy left they decided it would be a GREAT idea to go hit balls at the driving range.

 

Better thought out... it was decided that maybe it would be a good idea to quit drinking and call for chinese food delivery first. So it ended up costing me $100 to feed them anyway. But, having never had the experience of being threatened to be "taken in", it's pretty easy to see how intimidating it is and how quickly it could go downhill fast.

 

Yup - you were definately in your rights on your property....I have had my share on run-ins with the law, but have always obeyed their 'commands' (well...if ya want to call 'em that) and answered their questions - in turn they have treated me repectfully. However, you being on your property I agree with the way you handled it - politely, but firm in your expression of your rights. Thanks for posting.

 

There is a bad apple in any family - just gotta keep up the fight and support & recognition of the majority of good'uns I reckon ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

 

 

 

'o

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Another LEO armed citizen encounter.

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Oh my!

 

That was as shockingly nice as the video in the OP (I saw it on Facebook) was shockingly rude and crude.

 

Just saying... ;)

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Another LEO armed citizen encounter.

 

PERFECT! Polite, personable, informative, telling why he has concerns, injects some humor into the situation. Tells the guy that he doesn't have to show ID, but must identify himself. Doesn't make an issue of getting just the first name. Checks the gun, asks how to work the slide, gives it back after checking that it is empty.

 

Gotta say, the cop handled it better than the guy with the camera.

 

He is a lot like the Oceanside (and all N. San Diego County) cops I knew growing up. And, I suspect representative of 95% or more of the LEOs out there now. If that is where I suspect it is, not the best part of town, but not quite the worse either.

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Utah Bob is smart guy, I've seen enough of his posts to know. I refuse to believe he isn't aware of the existence of an us vs them mentality in some LEOs. And I certainly do NOT mean that as a slam on LE, far from it. With all the crap many of them face every day and the always present possibility of not getting home to their families, a bit of that is understandable. As a civilian I would give the LEO the benefit of the doubt too, absent convincing evidence to the contrary.

 

In this case though........ :blink:

 

Not smart but perhaps experienced anyway. And yes I have seen the Us vs Them mentality in some officers just as I've seen it in citizens. It's kind of human nature.

I never object to a post presented with good intentions that shows police wrongdoing. I do object to jumping to conclusions and the inevitable follow up posts with the stories of some stupid cop encounter. Everyone seems to have one. Or their brother does. Or their cousin. It just wears on you. When I was working, I was always reluctant at a party to tell people what I did for a living. It generally would A. Kill a conversation (especially in the 70s) or B. Within 30 seconds get a response about "this dumb cop who musta been a rookie who tried to give me a ticket for yadayada and I told him yadayada". After a few years I just told people I worked for the government and left it at that.

 

Imagine if you told someone you were a SASS member and they told you about a SASS jerk they met. After 50 times it might get tiresome. ;)

 

And in most cases the officer's word will hold more weight in court ,barring lack of contrary evidence, simply because they are trained and experienced and the overwhelming majority are telling the truth. This isn't Syria or Mexico.

 

I will leave you with Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing from 1829. I had these simple points taught to me and I tried to drum them into the head of every officer I ever trained or supervised. I have met Chiefs who feel these principles are no longer valid today. Their departments tended to have problems for some reason. :rolleyes:

 

1.The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

 

2.The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

 

3.Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

 

4.The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

 

5.Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

 

6.Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

 

7.Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

 

8.Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

 

9.The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

 

 

 

Ahh, but I see I have been far too verbose so I shall leave this thread to run it's course as they always do. I rarely get involved in these things as debate on the subject never changes the minds on either side.

 

I don't always drink beer my friends. But when I do I prefer it cold, and free. :lol:

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... pulls your back seat passenger out and searches the back seat. ...

 

Keep in mind I'm about 25 years outdated.

 

Illegal search.

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...Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing from 1829...

1.The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.

 

2.The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.

 

3.Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.

 

4.The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.

 

5.Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.

 

6.Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.

 

7.Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

 

8.Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.

 

9.The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

...

I don't always drink beer my friends. But when I do I prefer it cold, and free. :lol:

:wub: Peel's Principles and Bobby's!

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:wub: Peel's Principles and Bobby's!

 

Never met UB, but somehow I feel he adhered to these principles. :FlagAm:

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Utah, have a cold beer on my tab.

 

Yup - he's got one ready here too - He is a pretty steady character to listen too.

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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