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Subdeacon Joe

Question For LEOs

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You have a CCW. Your state law requires that you notify LEOs promptly that you are armed. You are parked, one person in the back seat, and someone outside. It is night. LE pulls up behind you. Talks to the person outside the car. You start to tell the LEO that you are armed and try to show him your permit. He tells you to keep quiet and stay in the car. He, or maybe his partner, pulls your back seat passenger out and searches the back seat. You are still sitting there.

 

Five or six minutes after LE has pulled up behind you the LEO tells you to get out of the car. You do and, finally able to talk, tell him that you have a CCW and are carrying. Cop gets abusive, threatens you, insults and abuses you, gets upset because he was in the back seat and you had a gun. Threatens you again for not telling him. Asks if you want him to pull his gun and put it to your head. Even though you had tried to tell him you were armed and he told you to shut up.

 

Was that LEO being reasonable? Should you have disobeyed him and spoken up?

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I'd get a name and badge #, report him to a supervisor. The guy is a JERK. He shouldn't be a cop. Just sayin'

 

Big Jake

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I've seen the transcript of the incident you described and it's embarrassing for us. One of the Officers first questions should have been "are there any weapons in the car?" I'm guessing he was angry at his own stupidity. :blush:

 

BSD

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He was apparently having a very bad day. Maybe he has a lot of bad days. He needs some counseling by a supervisor. A complaint should to be filed.

 

This doesn't need to be a question for LEOs. It's obvious to anyone that the officer screwed up. He then got angry because he realized he screwed up.

And no, if the cop says be quiet you shouldn't disobey him. Generally, no good will come of it.

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Actually back in days the copper would have just went ahead and killed all three, no witnesses, and at least 2 maybe 3 guns on the ground. End of story, of course all 3 were wanted for murder, and now the copper is a great hero. Driver just made up the CCW story. This one had a good ending after all. :lol:

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Again, you hear one side of the story. What did the LEO have to say about the incident?

 

That was all off the police dash cam and radio, Okie. Video and audio start a few blocks before the cop pulls up behind the and you can see and hear most of it.

 

Cop never once says "Sir." Starts off calling the person outside the car either "Hoss" or "Boss" before asking for a name and then using the name almost like an epithet: 'Well, James Gordon, ..." "Tell me, James Gordon..." "You're a liar, James Gordon..." not showing any respect for anyone right from the start. He seems to have a belligerent attitude right from the start.

 

I can put up the video if you like.

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Actually back in days the copper would have just went ahead and killed all three, no witnesses, and at least 2 maybe 3 guns on the ground. End of story, of course all 3 were wanted for murder, and now the copper is a great hero. Driver just made up the CCW story. This one had a good ending after all. :lol:

 

Heck, Mr. Earp wouldn't have bothered with guns on the ground.

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Thankfully retirement, counseling, career change, termination and the courts are all available to the citizenry today. Some folks are just caught up in the wrong job.

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That was all off the police dash cam and radio, Okie. Video and audio start a few blocks before the cop pulls up behind the and you can see and hear most of it.

 

Cop never once says "Sir." Starts off calling the person outside the car either "Hoss" or "Boss" before asking for a name and then using the name almost like an epithet: 'Well, James Gordon, ..." "Tell me, James Gordon..." "You're a liar, James Gordon..." not showing any respect for anyone right from the start. He seems to have a belligerent attitude right from the start.

 

I can put up the video if you like.

 

No, that is inappropriate behavior, and I'm sure disciplinary action is coming...

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No, that is inappropriate behavior, and I'm sure disciplinary action is coming...

 

One would hope. In my LE days one dept.'s trouble often became another dept.'s liability. I used to shudder when I would hear that officer so & so from X PD was let go and he applied to our department. Trouble is many police departments are understaffed, and money is tight. It is a tough decision to hire Mr. Right in which a considerable cost in training and equipment must be invested versus Mr. Letgo from X PD who already holds a state certification. It is hard on the good officers. In the long run it is more costly to hire a liability because those guys eventually weed themselves out and your dept. is back to square one needing another officer.

 

Oh and BTW if the officer did actually ask the motorist if he would like it if he (the officer) pulled out his gun and put it to his head, I smell the grounds of a good lawsuit or maybe even criminal charges. It would depend upon the DA.

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Heck, Mr. Earp wouldn't have bothered with guns on the ground.

 

Earp might have relieved him of his cash as well. ;)

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I don't think I want to see the video, but I am curious what city/state this happened in.

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File a complaint with his supervisor or his department's Internal Affairs.

 

 

He was waaaaay out of line.... No excuse...

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No, that is inappropriate behavior, and I'm sure disciplinary action is coming...

 

While this is an extreme example, it isn't that far out of what I have seen in parking lots and on the street. And I'm afraid is becoming more common. I understand that LEOs need to be in control of the situation, but there is a huge difference between maintaining control and being a rude, aggressive a*****e.

 

Also, behavior like this ends up being a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy. A few LEOs act like this, it becomes public, people start to distrust LE even more, which makes them nervous when approached by LE, who see it as aggressive and/or guilty behavior and so feel a need to be even more controlling (aggressive), we get more incidents like this and it snowballs.

 

And the citizen is caught in the middle. Do I disobey a direct order from the cop? Or do I obey the law, even if it means having to out shout the cop? Hell of a choice to have to make, isn't it?

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That was all off the police dash cam and radio, Okie. Video and audio start a few blocks before the cop pulls up behind the and you can see and hear most of it.

 

Cop never once says "Sir." Starts off calling the person outside the car either "Hoss" or "Boss" before asking for a name and then using the name almost like an epithet: 'Well, James Gordon, ..." "Tell me, James Gordon..." "You're a liar, James Gordon..." not showing any respect for anyone right from the start. He seems to have a belligerent attitude right from the start.

 

I can put up the video if you like.

 

That usually tells the story without bias...usually.

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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'Out shouting the cop' will only escalate the situation at that point in time.

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'Out shouting the cop' will only escalate the situation at that point in time.

 

 

Yeah, like others said I would get a badge# and name, remain unconfrontational & obey the officer's commands.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Oh and BTW if the officer did actually ask the motorist if he would like it if he (the officer) pulled out his gun and put it to his head, I smell the grounds of a good lawsuit or maybe even criminal charges. It would depend upon the DA.

 

Yeah, he did. You can hear him yelling it on the tape. Why should it depend on the DA? Turn it around, if a "civilian" offered to put a gun to a cops head, would there be any hesitation about filing charges?

 

 

Earp might have relieved him of his cash as well. ;)

 

Might have? ;)

 

 

I don't think I want to see the video, but I am curious what city/state this happened in.

 

Canton OH, Griz. Early June this year.

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You have a lot to say for someone who is a guest in the house

This has nothing at all to do with SASS and I'm tired of seeing fools like you posting this crap everytime they think a cop screwed up.

One of the very last arrests I made was a church deacon who molested a 12 year old girl and drug her through three years of hell before he admitted to the crime.

DID YOU SEE THAT POSTED HERE! no of course not because it had nothing to do with SASS

 

Now pay up or shut up

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Here in Georgia we're much more hopspitable to our guests. And this is a casual social forum, I wasn't aware all discussions had to relate to SASS, seenin as an awful lot have nothing to do with SASS. Are we supposed to don our hats, boots and holsters to post?

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You have a lot to say for someone who is a guest in the house

This has nothing at all to do with SASS and I'm tired of seeing fools like you posting this crap everytime they think a cop screwed up.

One of the very last arrests I made was a church deacon who molested a 12 year old girl and drug her through three years of hell before he admitted to the crime.

DID YOU SEE THAT POSTED HERE! no of course not because it had nothing to do with SASS

 

Now pay up or shut up

Right there is half the problem with bad LEO's: other LEO's don't want to do anything about it. And by the way:

The SASS Wire Saloon is the Social Gathering Spot to discuss topics not directly related to shooting in SASS Cowboy Action Shooting.

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Just to be clear, I am not trying to pick a fight. But there are two issues here that frustrate me to no end.

 

I frequent several forums, and whenever a topic like this comes up, the LEO's will speak to the fact that this is a problem which makes their own job more difficult. But if a non-LEO speaks up and says "yeah, this one time..." the immediate response is "well that's your story but we haven't heard the officer's side of it, and you don't understand what it's like to be a police officer..." The presumption being that the citizen has every reason to lie and/or exaggerate, while the LEO should be beyond reproach.

 

The other is the attitude that "if you're not a member of SASS then you have no right to ask questions or offer comment. But of course if you are a member, then you still have no right to do so, because rules are rules, for instance, and if you don't like it then you should just go somewhere else. This from a body which promotes itself as friendly and inclusive.

 

Anyway, just sayin' is all.

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Here in Georgia we're much more hopspitable to our guests. And this is a casual social forum, I wasn't aware all discussions had to relate to SASS, seenin as an awful lot have nothing to do with SASS. Are we supposed to don our hats, boots and holsters to post?

 

HTH must be havin' a bad day. :blink: This is EXACTLY what the Saloon is for -- to discuss topics not related to CAS. We may not like the topic, but it is no reason to attack people. He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

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HTH must be havin' a bad day. :blink: This is EXACTLY what the Saloon is for -- to discuss topics not related to CAS. We may not like the topic, but it is no reason to attack people. He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

 

:lol:

Know somethin about that topic?

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Here in Georgia we're much more hopspitable to our guests. And this is a casual social forum, I wasn't aware all discussions had to relate to SASS, seenin as an awful lot have nothing to do with SASS. Are we supposed to don our hats, boots and holsters to post?

 

 

 

No ma'am, the Saloon, as it has been from day one, is for topics not directly related to SASS...please enjoy posting accordingly...I will :D

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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:lol:

Know somethin about that topic?

 

:blink: ...hmmmmmm

 

:P

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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The other is the attitude that "if you're not a member of SASS then you have no right to ask questions or offer comment. But of course if you are a member, then you still have no right to do so, because rules are rules, for instance, and if you don't like it then you should just go somewhere else. This from a body which promotes itself as friendly and inclusive.

 

Anyway, just sayin' is all.

 

I know a lot of long-time shooters who do not belong to SASS. That is their business, not mine. I support SASS, which is my choice. I don't care if someone is a SASS member or not when they post here, unless of course it is just a 'drive by shooting' post. Now everybody play nice or Whiskey Business is going to have to get out the paddle. :wacko:

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Now everybody play nice or Whiskey Business is going to have to get out the paddle.

I... uh...

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:lol:

Know somethin about that topic?

 

There is something suspicious when docs are saying they 'practice' medicine. Are they ever going to get it right? :lol: I was lucky I guess -- 28 years of practicing medicine and never got sued or harmed anyone by mistakes. Unless you consider the time I cut the wrong leg off of a patient and had to bring them back in and cut off the other leg. The guy said he was going to sue me, but I told him he didn't have a leg to stand on. :lol:

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If Whiskey is getting out the paddle, we may just have fellers lining up down the block... :D

 

Bottles! Line them up for the house, put it on GGs tab.

 

Grizz

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Now everybody play nice or Whiskey Business is going to have to get out the paddle. :wacko:

 

:wub:

 

:lol:

 

 

And thanks for the support.

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HTH must be havin' a bad day. :blink: This is EXACTLY what the Saloon is for -- to discuss topics not related to CAS. We may not like the topic, but it is no reason to attack people. He77, let's start a topic on malpractice. :lol:

 

Okay...I heard(or read)[yeah, I can do that], that Texas passed a tort reform bill and the loser pays. Now, a buttload of Doctors have flooded into Texas to safely practice.

 

Will other states follow? One can only hope.

 

Charlie

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