"New" Catagory

[Doc Cuervo]

Sad to say, but how about a catagory that goes back to the very start of CAS. One with requirements like: totaly unmodified firearms, authentic 1860-1910 leather, (ie no speed rigs and shotgun bras), Ammunition, pistol min velocity 650fps max 1000fps, rifle min 900fps max 1300fps. No firearms invented after 1910...PERIOD! no ruger old model armys, henry big bores, etc. etc. if it is not an original or replica of a weapon of the era don't even bring it to the range. Clothing/costume authentic to the period.

The sole purpose is to put everyone on equal footing to compete with what they had during the period. Let's take the classes; Traditional, duelist, gunfightrer. Sub-divide each of those class with; smokless, black powder, senior, mens, women and junior.

Kinda like reinventing the wheel I guess.

[Doc Fill 'Em 67797]

Sounds kinda like Classic Cowboy. I'm thinkin' of going to that category myself.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Back to the beginning of CAS?

 

You mean like the first shot in a match being fired out of a Ruger Blackhawk?

 

Or do you mean IPSC with cowboy guns? As that was where it started.

 

So you want everybody in snap shirts and Wranglers because "Authentic Period Clothing" was unavailable back then?

 

And stock guns? Remember the part about these guys being IPSC shooters? If they had stock guns (doubtful - these were COMPETITORS), but IF they did - their guns remained stock exactly long enough to figure out what they could do to them to give themsleves an edge.

 

And leather? Pistol shooters were not going to go from competion gun rigs in IPSC (even 1980's era IPSC) to floppy leather gun bags - I am willing to bet more than one already had a steel lined fast draw rig and wore it to the match.

 

The good ol' days are now. Shooters need to stop pining for a CAS history that never existed.

[Doc Cuervo]

Back to the beginning of CAS?

 

You mean like the first shot in a match being fired out of a Ruger Blackhawk?

 

Or do you mean IPSC with cowboy guns? As that was where it started.

 

So you want everybody in snap shirts and Wranglers because "Authentic Period Clothing" was unavailable back then?

 

And stock guns? Remember the part about these guys being IPSC shooters? If they had stock guns (doubtful - these were COMPETITORS), but IF they did - their guns remained stock exactly long enough to figure out what they could do to them to give themsleves an edge.

 

And leather? Pistol shooters were not going to go from competion gun rigs in IPSC (even 1980's era IPSC) to floppy leather gun bags - I am willing to bet more than one already had a steel lined fast draw rig and wore it to the match.

 

The good ol' days are now. Shooters need to stop pining for a CAS history that never existed.

 

Oh darn I must have been halucinating back in when I first got into it then! Granted, it had been going for a few years before I started but still the period correct standards that they were operating under at that time was what attracted me and once I found out how much fun it was to just go and shoot with abunch of people that wern't all cut throat and not worried about gold medals and sh!% was refreshing. However seeing how you seem to be the resident history matter expert, I must have been dreaming, it was all IPSC from the get go!

Oh excuse me I, meant back when CAS was fun. I remember a different attitude and atmosphere. But then again that was probably.....before your time perhaps?

Ahh yes,...the edge...I don't have the skills to compete evenly so I will rely on technology to give me...."The edge".

[LEAD BANE, SASS 70197]

Sad to say, but how about a catagory that goes back to the very start of CAS. One with requirements like: totaly unmodified firearms, authentic 1860-1910 leather, (ie no speed rigs and shotgun bras), Ammunition, pistol min velocity 650fps max 1000fps, rifle min 900fps max 1300fps. No firearms invented after 1910...PERIOD! no ruger old model armys, henry big bores, etc. etc. if it is not an original or replica of a weapon of the era don't even bring it to the range. Clothing/costume authentic to the period.

The sole purpose is to put everyone on equal footing to compete with what they had during the period. Let's take the classes; Traditional, duelist, gunfightrer. Sub-divide each of those class with; smokless, black powder, senior, mens, women and junior.

Kinda like reinventing the wheel I guess.

 

I wont even try to give reasons to why I think that idea SUCKS!

[Doc Cuervo]

Nobody says that you have to shoot that catgory.

[The Dakota Clay]

My humble opinion on the matter is that there is already too many categories. Adding even ONE more is too many, let alone sub-dividing all of the other categories into a "purist" sub-set... There's often only a few shooters in several of the categories, so now EVERYBODY will get a prize for winning their category, because they'll be the only one in it!

 

Classic cowboy is about as close as "the real deal" as we need to get.

 

The reason we allow gun modifications, besides obvious competitiveness and occasionally safety issues with running stock guns, is that it'd be basically impossible to police a "no modifications" rule. And we have evidence that shooters DID make modifications to their guns to make them quicker or smoother or more accurate.

 

If you want to be a purist, then be a purist. This is just another vain attempt to "put everyone on even footing"... Not knowing you from a hole in the ground, my guess is that you're a middle of the road shooter hoping to slow down the speed demons with a technicality, instead of trying to beat them on practice and ability. That's usually where these ideas come from. There's no such thing as "even footing". Hand your guns to Lead Dispencer and give him 20min to get acclimated and he'll beat you, WITH YOUR OWN GUNS. That's the way of the world, where there are lords, there must always be serfs, where there is a winner, there must also be a 2nd place.

 

We already have a classic cowboy class for the purists... If CC isn't purist enough, then you're WAY too picky! haha

[Korupt Karl]

Isnt't there an organization IPDEA or something like that that already embraces these requirements?

 

KK

[Smithy]

My humble opinion on the matter is that there is already too many categories. Adding even ONE more is too many, let alone sub-dividing all of the other categories into a "purist" sub-set... There's often only a few shooters in several of the categories, so now EVERYBODY will get a prize for winning their category, because they'll be the only one in it!

 

I think the pard's idea was to deep six all the other categories and rely solely on the new purist ones he's mentioning. Does that mean my Bisley Vaquero's are out of the picture? Smithy.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

NCOWS has such a category "THE ORIGINALS"You have to be period

correct from hat to toes and have a story behind who you are to go with the dress

[Blue Steel Duke]

Well I'll say it again, but after looking through hundreds of old Tin Types of my family from Virginia, most of which who were either Lawmen or Pinkerton Agents, we'd also have to add a catagory that utilized one pistol (stuck in a waistband) and a rifle or single shot shotgun! The "Period Correct" arguement is a slippery slope

 

 

BSD

[Griff]

Oh Lord it IS going to be a LONG winter!

 

I love it when folks start to talk about the beginnings of CAS... which predates SASS by at least 6 years... and my involvement by 4. Do you not think there wasn't some refinement even then?

 

And while the winner might have been shooting a Ruger, I know from 1st hand testimony that JRB was using a Colt! Other'n that, Creeker's guess is pretty close.

 

But, yes, period clothing WAS available. Just not at EVERY western store in town. But even without the internet, we still had mail order outfits. Actually, snap shirts were against the rules back at least from 1985 on... until B-Western allowed them. A relatively recent development.

 

And, for the record, there was no requirement about totally unmodified guns. The rule about external modifications survives almost intact from the time I started.

 

And a question: I know what a shotgun house is, but I can't even imagine how that would become a shotgun bra. Doesn't seem feasible for some reason.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Here we go again.

This thing has been beat to death.

 

Why don't you start one at the local level and then see how it goes and

come back and report how it went.

 

That is how you get a new category going.

 

Now. Are you going to just come on here and say this is what you want and someone else should do it.

Which a few others have done in the past.

 

Or. Are you going to step up.

Start one at your home club with all the rules you think this category should have.

And then let us know how it goes.

 

Others has said they was going to to it. But NEVER have been able to come up with the rules for it.

OR worked hard enough to even get it off the ground at the local level at there home club.

 

SO. Again. You stepping up?????? Or just waitting for someone else to do it.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Proposed ideas like this seem self serving, when words like "equal footing" are used it pretty much says it all about what the real purpose would be. So when the gamer wants to be a smart ass and plays your new game and you still get smoked what's next?

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Doc Cuervo, with all due respect.

 

There is certainly nothing stopping you from shooting the exact equipment you propose, wearing the exact clothes that you propose, at ANY SASS match, anywhere in the world. Now you probably wouldn't be competitive, but as you stated, that is not why the game exists. It is for like minded individuals to get out and play with guns. In your scheme why does it matter what someone else is shooting/wearing? It's all for fun, right?

[Tenn. Outrider, SASS #2353]

I know exactly what Doc is referring too...I can remember a time in SASS (1992) when all these gun mods and what I refer to as (cowboy combat gun leather) was not allowed..as far as I am concerned SASS has developed into IPSC type shooting only the participants are dressed in cowboy duds (many don't even dress the part). Unfortunately, since I still want to shoot I have to grin and bear all these changes. As far as an NCOWS club...many parts of the country don't have NCOWS and in many cases the ranges that have SASS won't allow NCOWS. Someone mentioned improved safety mods on the guns...Do you consider a short stroke kit as a safety Mod? I think not...

 

MHO

[Blue Steel Duke]

 

Why don't you start one at the local level and then see how it goes and

come back and report how it went.

I agree 100%. As far as my idea, I've always thought that a "One gun One rifle" catagory would be a good way to bring in new shooters and involve those on a very tight budget, but I could never figure a way to mainstream them with the traditional shooters. A seperate match on a different day, but would clubs want and be able to afford that? Ideas........

 

BSD

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

I kind of agree with you Deuce, but at the same time I can kind of see Doc's point too.

 

There's been a number of threads about categories lately, and I think a lot of it comes from the perception that we've got so many in an attempt to be "all inclusive" to make sure we have a "level playing field" --- two PC expressions that just make my skin crawl. It's like these kid's T-ball leagues where everybody gets a trophy and they don't keep score so nobody gets their feelings hurt.

 

Some of the recent proposals have been rather limited in their appeal, and could be seen as self-serving. Not to flame the author of the idea in another thread, but the Military category idea never gained traction for obvious reasons. Krag rifles and 1892 Colt Navy revolvers might be cool to own, but they have nothing to do with cowboy shooting. It would have been just another category to further dilute the stew into a thin soup.

 

Doc's appeal for simplification has some merit, and as Diablo Slim noted a rival organization has such a category ... which does seem a lot like our Classic Cowboy. If you want to shoot period only box-stock guns, with a period propellant, in period clothing there's no reason not to. This is just a game after all, and there's plenty of latitude for folks to adopt whatver style & persona they want.

 

It's impossible to stuff the genie back into the bottle, and without a major overhaul (which would probably be met with much wailing and gnashing of teeth) the current category structuring is going to with us for a long time.

 

Now let's go shoot and have some fun.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Sad to say, but how about a catagory that goes back to the very start of CAS. One with requirements like: totaly unmodified firearms, authentic 1860-1910 leather, (ie no speed rigs and shotgun bras), Ammunition, pistol min velocity 650fps max 1000fps, rifle min 900fps max 1300fps. No firearms invented after 1910...PERIOD! no ruger old model armys, henry big bores, etc. etc. if it is not an original or replica of a weapon of the era don't even bring it to the range. Clothing/costume authentic to the period.

The sole purpose is to put everyone on equal footing to compete with what they had during the period. Let's take the classes; Traditional, duelist, gunfightrer. Sub-divide each of those class with; smokless, black powder, senior, mens, women and junior.

Kinda like reinventing the wheel I guess.

Where did you get the idea this was the way it was at the very start of CAS. There was no requirement for totally unmodified firearms, authentic leather, no ammo requirements, most of pistols were Rugers, leather was whatever the shooter had at home the guns would fit in, western clothes were a hat, jeans, and some sort of shirt. Inquiring minds want to know. If you doubt it, just look at photos of early matches including the first EOT.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Gunfighters and lawmen of the Old West had their guns worked on and "slicked up", proof of this is a famous letter to Colt from Bat Masterson who wanted his pistol, easy on the hammer and light on the trigger with a higher front sight. I assume he was not the only one back then. They were gunsmiths who worked on guns and I'm sure slicked 'em up as best as they could. There were no shortstroke kits but if there was they woulda had them installed. This "MYTH" about guns not worked on back in the day applies to the begininng of SASS also. C'mon how hard is it to lighten up the action on a Ruger Blackhawk? This category is a bad idea IMHO, Rye, who shoots the powder that they used back in the day,Miles

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Oh darn I must have been halucinating back in when I first got into it then! Granted, it had been going for a few years before I started but still the period correct standards that they were operating under at that time was what attracted me and once I found out how much fun it was to just go and shoot with abunch of people that wern't all cut throat and not worried about gold medals and sh!% was refreshing. However seeing how you seem to be the resident history matter expert, I must have been dreaming, it was all IPSC from the get go!

Oh excuse me I, meant back when CAS was fun. I remember a different attitude and atmosphere. But then again that was probably.....before your time perhaps?

Ahh yes,...the edge...I don't have the skills to compete evenly so I will rely on technology to give me...."The edge".

I feel really bad for you. It would appear that you are currently live in an isolated region where SASS members are different then the rest of the country. I have shot in several different states with shooters from ALL over the country and the world and have yet to be surrounded by cut throats.

 

Well if you ever get the chance come on down to Florida....we like to compete but we also like to have a good time. Seems to me we are having just as much fun now as when I started....heck maybe even more.

 

I have to warn you.....We do have gun mods and there are guys using Rugers and such in FL as well.....I seem to remember Tex, you know SASS#4, writing about a mod done to his guns to keep the fired caps from falling into it and jamming it up (in the EARLY 80's PERHAPS?). .....Didn't someone write an article stating that blackhawks were one of the most common single actions in the early days? That's right it was Tex, SASS#4....You know I hate it when the facts get in the way of a good story don't you?

 

As one of my SASS pards says all the time....."I'm just looking for an honest advantage".....LOL

 

Stan - who is still having a BALL shooting SASS!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I know exactly what Doc is referring too...I can remember a time in SASS (1992) when all these gun mods and what I refer to as (cowboy combat gun leather) was not allowed..as far as I am concerned SASS has developed into IPSC type shooting only the participants are dressed in cowboy duds (many don't even dress the part). Unfortunately, since I still want to shoot I have to grin and bear all these changes. As far as an NCOWS club...many parts of the country don't have NCOWS and in many cases the ranges that have SASS won't allow NCOWS. Someone mentioned improved safety mods on the guns...Do you consider a short stroke kit as a safety Mod? I think not...

 

MHO

 

I am confused by your statements. In 1992 guns could be modified internally as much as the shooter wanted, just not modified externally. What rule in 1992 addressed cowboy leather? What is cowboy combat leather and where can I purchase it, sounds like fun?

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Doc, there is no reason why you can't do that now. Find a few folks that want to shoot the same way and take it up with the MD. There are a bunch of us that shoot categories that are not SASS approved now, like FCGF, Outlaw, Frontier Cowboy. Jose Wales, Wart Hog..etc..many at the state and regional level, and above. FCGF just missed in the last vote by 12 votes, we all started this at the local level and continued to grow it from there, no reason why you can't do the same thing. For those that claim, I'd shoot NCOWS but there is not a club near me, start your own. It only takes five members to become an NCOWS posse, I'm sure if you really wanted it you could find four other people to shoot, if there was one near me I'd probably shoot NCOWS also. Sorry but, "The sole purpose is to put everyone on equal footing" , you're never gonna put everyone on an equal footing. For those that want the "One gun One rifle" category, do it, I don't know of a single MD that would not let you shoot that way, you just would not be eligable for over all scoring. But there is nothing stopping you from shooting a local match with "One gun One rifle". Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Two Gun Johnnie]

Doc

Im sorry to hear that you are no longer having fun in CAS. Good luck with your new hobby.

 

Two Gun

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

Back in the early days when I started shooting Cowboy Action matches, about '93 or '94, we didn't use two gun rigs. If a second pistol was called for, it was staged somewhere. The two gun rigs came into use in the late '90's, at least here in Florida they did.

 

Again at the start around here, they would let you use a double action pistol as long as you shot it single action. There was also some flexibility for shotguns.

 

Clothing was usually just jeans, boots a hat and a long sleeved shirt.

 

When I started my guns were an old 3-screw Ruger Blackhawk in .44 mag, second gun was a 1st gen Colt in .44-40, rifle was an old Winchester Model 92 in 32-20, shotgun was an old Royal double in 12 gauge, and my leather was a homemade buscadero single rig with shotgun shells in my shirt pocket.

 

It was fun because it was all new back then.

 

Now, I use (among other things) short-stroked Ruger New Vaqueros in .357, a short-stroked .357 Uberti '73, a slicker-than-snot Winchester '97, custom leather with holsters cut down in the front and flared for easier draw and reholster along with a shotgun belt that is cut and molded to stick the shells out a little for easier grabbing.

 

Along with that, I wear (in weather warmer than this) one of the new "Cool Shirts" and light-weight pants. And a Sunbody straw hat.

 

I've still got the old guns and jeans and leather - BUT - Do I want to go back?

 

In the immortal words of John Wayne "Not Hardly!!!!!!!!"

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Sounds kinda like Classic Cowboy. I'm thinkin' of going to that category myself.

Don't just "thinkin' of going", DF. DO IT! We're having a blast and the more Classic Cowboys the merrier! Heck, just look at the scores at Comin At Cha last month COMIN' AT CHA RESULTS. This is a great, fun group with an eye on competiton, comaraderie and contribution to the sport and the Classic Cowboy category. A field of 21 shooters and TBone shot Outlaw just to give us all some room!

 

PM me anytime, or heck, PM any of us and we'll get you going the right way.

 

Brother King

[Snakebite]

I sure don't remember all those rules being there in the begining... they were not there when I started in 91..... as for categories.. Hipshot proposed that we go back to what it was in the begining.. and he ought to know.

 

Categories:

Mens

Womens

 

 

Snakebite

[Jack Houston # 35508]

Doc

Im sorry to hear that you are no longer having fun in CAS. Good luck with your new hobby.

 

Two Gun

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Oh excuse me I, meant back when CAS was fun. I remember a different attitude and atmosphere. But then again that was probably.....before your time perhaps?

Ahh yes,...the edge...I don't have the skills to compete evenly so I will rely on technology to give me...."The edge".

 

 

Before my time?

A lot of history occurred before my time - but history is history - I do not rewrite it because it makes a better story that way.

 

I wasn't there at the begining, but I find it hard (read impossible) to believe that seasoned IPSC shooters changed their competition midset simply because they changed their guns.

 

"Ok - heres how we are going to shoot this. Run over to the fence - engage the targets as presented...

(changing voice to effeminate)

Oooh, what is this, a single action revolver? Well we can't have a competition with these things, we should simply have a social and victorian tea party" post vomiting icon here.

 

As for the "edge" - If you choose to not use every LEGAL method to do better than the guy you're shooting against - Don't be shocked when you lose.

[Marshal Max Henry]

The Good Ole days for me was October my 1st match and I guess I was spared all of this because the group of guys I shoot with are the Salt of the Earth and the rules were there when i signed on and I am having a Blast. Thank the lord for SASS.

 

 

Much Obliged for letting me put in my 2cents

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Ah yes, the good old days -- forever defined, deconstructed, dissected, discussed and debated with selective memories.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Ah yes, the good old days -- forever defined, deconstructed, dissected, discussed and debated with selective memories.

 

As Mark Twain said: "I remember everything perfectly whether it happened or not".

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

Sad to say, but how about a catagory that goes back to the very start of CAS.

 

One with requirements like: totaly unmodified firearms, authentic 1860-1910 leather, (ie no speed rigs and shotgun bras), Ammunition, pistol min velocity 650fps max 1000fps, rifle min 900fps max 1300fps. No firearms invented after 1910...PERIOD! no ruger old model armys, henry big bores, etc. etc. if it is not an original or replica of a weapon of the era don't even bring it to the range. Clothing/costume authentic to the period.

 

The sole purpose is to put everyone on equal footing to compete with what they had during the period. Let's take the classes; Traditional, duelist, gunfightrer. Sub-divide each of those class with; smokless, black powder, senior, mens, women and junior.

Kinda like reinventing the wheel I guess.

 

 

I guess I'm kind of confused as to just what you want.

 

#1, Sad to say, but how about a catagory that goes back to the very start of CAS. A catagory that used one "Whatever" kind of SA pistol you owned and "Whatever" caliber lever action rifle, and mostly a '97 Winchester shotgun, as SASS origionaly started?

 

or, #2. One with requirements like: totaly unmodified firearms, authentic 1860-1910 leather, (ie no speed rigs and shotgun bras), Ammunition, pistol min velocity 650fps max 1000fps, rifle min 900fps max 1300fps. No firearms invented after 1910...PERIOD! no ruger old model armys, henry big bores, etc. etc. if it is not an original or replica of a weapon of the era don't even bring it to the range. Clothing/costume authentic to the period. A NOCOW catagory that is allowed now in both dress and firearms you have mentioned.

 

If it's #1, I'm not really interested, as I don't have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30cal as the first shot in this sport was fired with, and have no desire to have a 97 for normal usage other than the ocasional WB match. Really, if you wish to get back to the start, Rugers and rifle caliber lever action rifles were allowed, and 97's were more common than SxS's. One pistol was the norm. BOORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

If it's #2, then you are free to shoot nearly any catagory within your listed guidlines now, and dress acordanly at nearly any SASS shoot I've attended. Still uninteresting and personaly, but feel fred to "Flote your own boat" any way you wish within the rules of SASS, and also feel free to request this catagory at any match you attend. Don't feel too bad if it don't take off and fly, as the majority of SASS shooters I've talked to are fairly satisfied with the rules and catagories we have now. I know there is a lot of discussion here on the wire about rules and catagories, and a lot of complaining here on the wire, but the one's I talk to in person express thet things are overall better now than in the past. You see, I simply don't care what SASS legal guns or ammo you use. Or what SASS legal guns or ammo anyone else uses.

 

I, like you, wish to shoot against like minded people using comparable propellent and shooting stile, that is why I support FCGF and ask for it when I can. If you wish something diferent, ask for it at shoots, and get others to ask, too. FCGF has growed, maybe your wish will also. You can only try.

 

However, after reading that rude, insulting article on page 14 of this months CC by J. P. Lower, I would find it very hard to offer any support to such a catagory.

 

Greeenriver

[Doc Shapiro]

Ahh yes,...the edge...I don't have the skills to compete evenly so I will rely on technology to give me...."The edge".

 

Holy cow! There is so much wrong with the very concept of this that I don't even know where to start! Let's see...

 

To paraphrase another great athlete, "It ain't about the _____" fill in whatever bit of sporting equipment you want. For this game it would be "ammo" or "gun" or "mod" etc. The nut behind the trigger (aka, the shooter) is the one that dictates what the tool (ammo, gun, etc.) does. If you can't compete now, now changes in equipment will help that. The only thing that will is a significant amount of practice.

 

I hate to continue to burst the bubble here, but the field is level. Same as in life. You are what you make of yourself. You can create your own opportunities of choose to gripe about what you think you have or don't have.

 

Life's too short for such a negative attitude. Go out and grab it by the horns and implement your vision locally and see what happens. If it proves to be popular, it will catch on at other clubs. That's how new categories are born.

 

Go do it!

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

We were lonely then Doc. Ive got Cowboy chronicas that listed every cas match that wanted listing and it was a very short list.

I still use the same basic stuff I used in 1989. Some of it is the exact same stuff! Rugers were allowed. Adjustable sights were Modern class guns.Clothes were pretty hard to get so some stuff you had to make or have made. We had to have a story for our character or outfit, I can still spin a yarn.

I still shoot the same now too, no short stokes for me. But even I started using bigger hammers on some of my guns when the rules changed. If they change back I'll put the other hammers back.

It doesn't matter to me that I happen to be classified as shooting in some category or the other. I'm sorry it bothers you Doc but you can shoot anyway you want within the rules. It can be as fun or unpleasant as you want also. I chose to enjoy the added opportunities for cas shooting and I'm glad I did.

I think I really do get your point and that you just want another category.

Joe