Round nose bullets in a tubular magazine

[Macon A. Longshot]

I would like to know if anybody has heard of a chain reaction set off by a round nose lead 38spl bullet in a tubular magazine. I have found a round nose that works very well in my short stroked Marlin but I am being advised against using it because of a chance that it may cause a mag detonation. I am finding this very hard to swallow but would like any input from other fellow shooters. This particular load is a 93Gr RN with 3.2 grs of Tite Group.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

RN should be fine for SASS/CAS shooting

Cheers,

LG

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Your Marlin manual recommends use of flat nosed bullets. With the wide variety of choices in bullets, why tempt fate? The recoil is certainly strong enough to push bullets into the brass if not completely crimped so with the right set of circumstances, it sure seems possible that a primer, especially a soft one like a Federal could be set off. There have been tests and photos of accidents posted in the past of chain fires in the lever magazine.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Macon,

 

I don't remember the reason round or pointy nose is not recommended (what you heard sounds reasonable) and "bullet boy" isn't available. You also do not want to use wad cutters as they don't feed well.

 

I do know that flat point or truncated cone are recommended. I use TC.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Your Marlin manual recommends use of flat nosed bullets. With the wide variety of choices in bullets, why tempt fate? The recoil is certainly strong enough to push bullets into the brass if not completely crimped so with the right set of circumstances, it sure seems possible that a primer, especially a soft one like a Federal could be set off. There have been tests and photos of accidents posted in the past of chain fires in the lever magazine.

Well, there you go. That is as good of a reason as I would need to use flat-nosed bullets.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Crusty]

For years Remington made Core-Loc bullets for the .30-30 with a rounded nose. I carried them in my rifle for a number of years with no problems.

 

My $.02.

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

Round nose bullets for pistols are fine. However RN on tubular magazine may be of different story. With the bullet tip of the round nose pushing againt the primer of the bullet in a tubular magazine may cause detonation due to spring tension inserted against the stack of bullet in a tubular magazine. Recoil can also contribute to this situation. This is why it is advisable to use Round Nose Flat Point bullet. The flat point being sure that it is larger diameter that the primer ahead of it so as not to be pushing on the primer itself but also partly pushing against the case rim. This type of detonation is not common but there is always that possibility, and that posibility is not what I am in favor of. Some pards may have different opinion on this, but as a reloader of a number of years, it is not the chance I am willing to take. It's better to be on the safe side.

[Guest diablo slim shootist]

never heard of it happening-but better safe than sorry

in a Henry rifle dropping them down in the magazine

is just tempting fate with any bullet with a nose point

smaller than the primer

[Matthew Duncan]

I can never understand how a LEAD bullet (in a magazine tube) could be hard enough and have enough velocity to detonate a primer.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

It's not the recoil that is a problem with SASS-type loads. In a '73 rifle when a round is fired and the lever worked to feed the next round, at the point when the carrier again lines up with the magazine, the entire column of cartridges suddenly moves back about an inch and a half under spring tension, then stops when the column hits the frame of the gun and stops.

 

This is what causes bullets to back into the case and what could cause a chain fire in the magazine tube.

 

I never heard of a chain fire in anything but a Henry rifle, but can see how it could happen. (These weren't from recoil either but from dropping either the cartridges or the follower. It was never clear to me which.)

 

There are too many good flat point bullets out there to take the chance. If you have round nosed bullets, just shoot them in your pistols.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Plain RN aren't recommended for a tubular magazine....RNFP are wonderful already

 

GG ~

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I can never understand how a LEAD bullet (in a magazine tube) could be hard enough and have enough velocity to detonate a primer.

 

Things happen all the time of which have no understanding or comprehension Grasshopper...

 

GG ~

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

This is just a general knowledge, the possibility is always there. It is the possibility that is not what you want to experience. It is the possibility that is the scariest. If anyone thinks that this is a very slim chance, that slim chance could happen to anyone. That's is why reload at your own risk, but use common sense. If you think it's not safe, don't do it. Lead bullets can come in different hardness, it could be that certain hardness that could do you in. Are you willing to take that chance? If you do, I just hope nothing bad will happen to you. I don't wish anything bad happen to anyone. Just be always safe, that's all there is to it. Being safe is all I want to understand. Vaya con Dios.

[August West, SASS #45079]

My humble observation is that there are two camps on this. First camp says, I've done it for years and never had a problem. Second camp say, I had a chain fire in the magazine and will never do it again.

 

Now, I guess the guys in the second camp used to be members of the first camp until they weren't any more.

 

Driving a car without a seatbelt is fun -- until it isn't.

 

Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is fun -- until it isn't.

 

Using Dacron filler in straight walled cases does not cause ringed chambers -- until it does.

[Matthew Duncan]

Things happen all the time of which have no understanding or comprehension Grasshopper...

 

GG ~

 

You must be married too...

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

The common advice is to use only flat nosed bullets in any tube mag rifle, to avoid the RN or pointed nose setting off the primer of the round in front of it. With the abundance of bullets available to us from casters and factory rounds, it ain't hard to find flat nosed bullets to use.

 

But, I would suggest that you make your own decision, after trying this simple test. And about anyone can try this. All it takes is a couple pistol primers, a hammer, a piece of flat steel, any hard cast or soft cast lead bullet, a pair of safety glasses, a pair of needle nosed pliers,and a few minutes of time. I've done this several times on an anvil I have in the garage and satisfied my self on the usage of RN lead bullets in my tube mag rifles.

 

Take a common pistol primer and set it on the flat piece of steel, cup side down. Now, take any cast lead bullet and hold it in a pair of needle nosed pliers directly over the primer. Now, take a ball peen hammer and smack the bullet down on the primer!! Again, smack it down hard!!! Keep smacking it with the hammer till the bullet is beaten to an unrecognizable lump of lead, and you will find the primer, unfired, embedded in the nose of the bullet. I've used 30-30 RN lead tipped jacketed bullets in my 94's for years, and have a box of them on the desk here in front of me now, with never a chain fire from them, and have pounded several lead bullets to pieces on an anvil over the years with never setting off a primer, so I really don't see the danger.

 

However, I do use FN bullets in my CAS rifles, as the moulds I use are for a FN bullet. I bought them used and if they were RN, I would have no problems using them.

 

One in a millon chance of setting off the bullet ahead??? I don't know, but I do know I've been struck by lightning three times in my life and lived, so you might just be that one in a millon.

 

Only you can decide if it's worth the chance. It sure won't worry me to see you loading them in your rifle at the loading table, or standing beside you when you shoot them.

 

Greeenriver

 

PS: The bullits I've tried this with are straight WW hardness.

 

GR

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

Yes, it's a bad idea and it can happen.

 

But I've only seen it right in front of me once. So if you figure how many thousands of rounds I've seen fired as an RO and competitor then maybe you figure your odds are good enough. Believe me I've heard every possible argument so if it's your range do what you want.

Just warn me so I can get out of the way. I stop people from using them on our range if I see they are using them.

 

Details: It was a Uberti 1866 round barrel carbine serial # 1XX firing factory green box Remington .38 spl 158 grain round nose. 10 rounds were loaded in the magazine. It detonated on the third shot of a fast string. Two rounds detonated, it took months to get the parts necessary to fix the rifle from Val Folget as it was an eary production type and he kindly found a sideplate blank for me to finish and fit. Shooter was uninjured.

The funny part is I had just said don't use those bullets and my friend went on to regale me with how long he'd been using them with no problems, then boom.

A 30-30 round designed for mag tube use is a different story.

 

Good luck,

Joe

[Snake River Clay SASS #34984]

The common advice is to use only flat nosed bullets in any tube mag rifle, to avoid the RN or pointed nose setting off the primer of the round in front of it. With the abundance of bullets available to us from casters and factory rounds, it ain't hard to find flat nosed bullets to use.

 

But, I would suggest that you make your own decision, after trying this simple test. And about anyone can try this. All it takes is a couple pistol primers, a hammer, a piece of flat steel, any hard cast or soft cast lead bullet, a pair of safety glasses, a pair of needle nosed pliers,and a few minutes of time. I've done this several times on an anvil I have in the garage and satisfied my self on the usage of RN lead bullets in my tube mag rifles.

 

Take a common pistol primer and set it on the flat piece of steel, cup side down. Now, take any cast lead bullet and hold it in a pair of needle nosed pliers directly over the primer. Now, take a ball peen hammer and smack the bullet down on the primer!! Again, smack it down hard!!! Keep smacking it with the hammer till the bullet is beaten to an unrecognizable lump of lead, and you will find the primer, unfired, embedded in the nose of the bullet. I've used 30-30 RN lead tipped jacketed bullets in my 94's for years, and have a box of them on the desk here in front of me now, with never a chain fire from them, and have pounded several lead bullets to pieces on an anvil over the years with never setting off a primer, so I really don't see the danger.

 

However, I do use FN bullets in my CAS rifles, as the moulds I use are for a FN bullet. I bought them used and if they were RN, I would have no problems using them.

 

One in a millon chance of setting off the bullet ahead??? I don't know, but I do know I've been struck by lightning three times in my life and lived, so you might just be that one in a millon.

 

Only you can decide if it's worth the chance. It sure won't worry me to see you loading them in your rifle at the loading table, or standing beside you when you shoot them.

 

Greeenriver

 

PS: The bullits I've tried this with are straight WW hardness.

 

GR

 

 

I use round nose in a 30/30 all the time. Since a 30/30 is necked down the primers don't line up with bullets. A straight wall cartidge may be different.

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

My humble observation is that there are two camps on this. First camp says, I've done it for years and never had a problem. Second camp say, I had a chain fire in the magazine and will never do it again.

 

Now, I guess the guys in the second camp used to be members of the first camp until they weren't any more.

 

Driving a car without a seatbelt is fun -- until it isn't.

 

Riding a motorcycle without a helmet is fun -- until it isn't.

 

Using Dacron filler in straight walled cases does not cause ringed chambers -- until it does.

 

Well, I am neither. May be I belong into the 3rd camp. Heard of it happen, but never seen it happen, I surely don't want it happening to me. Again, common sense dictates. I surely don't want to experience it at all, that makes sense to me. I'd like to stay out of trouble, although I am always in trouble with the better half anyway.(I don't understand why...mmm!)

[Stormy Reinz, SASS #41707]

Macon - I gotta chime in here. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill here.

 

Your "feeding issue just does not hold water.

 

You are trying to say that a 90gr RNFP by being a FP, won't feed any better than a roundnose?

 

You are only talking about 10-15 degrees flattened out, of a 180 degree plane. And dead center.

 

Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

I shoot 90 grains myself in pistols and have shot them in Marlins, 73's and a 66 for a breif period with no issue whatsoever.

 

Better be safe than sorry.

 

Besides, it's not the recoil or spring action that I would worry about, it would be setting the rifle down too hard on the butt or dropping it that would cause a lot of rebound that may set off a chainfire.

 

Good luck in your decision.

[Slick McClade]

I have been shooting RN 90 - 93 gr. bullets in my marlins and 73's with no issues at all. I dont beleive at all by the bullet moving one inch in the tube while laying flat can cause a bullet to fire. I might have one blow up at my next match, but until I do I'm shootin the little suckers!!

 

 

But what do I know

 

Slick

 

 

(And if the ax above the fire place falls it could kill one of the kids!!!, and they dont have any kids!! )

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

You must be married too...

 

 

 

 

I have done things like that in a pinch and gotten away with it. But I will say that standing there pulling the trigger no matter how fast you are but with the thought that "this might be the one time something goes wrong" is just not something that contributes to an enjoyable shoot.

[Doc Wiginton]

I shoot a marlin in 38/357. I have used round nosed 158 grain bullets for hundreds of rounds and never had any problem. Maybe the next shoot I'll blow up my gun, but I am going to continue with the same bullets that I have been reloading with. I would say that the round nosed bullets I am using are not pointed but rather wide on the tip.

 

Doc

[Slick McClade]

Oh!!,

I forgot something in my ealier post.... I have fired over 60,000 of the little Round nose suckers, still no boom just a small dinnnnng!!

 

Slick "who thinks your ok" McClade

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

You must be married too...

 

You have chosen wisely

 

GG ~

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Cypress Sam is correct. It is not recoil that will cause bullets to telescope back into a case, and it is not recoil that might possibly cause a magazine detonation. It is the rapid slamming back of the entire stack of cartridges under spring pressure as one feeds out of the magazine and then the entire column slams to a stop. This is a much larger force than the force of recoil on a 7 or 8 pound rifle. This can easily shove bullets back into a case, I have done it many times with dummies in my rifles.

 

In a similar vein, I would be reluctant to use round nosed bullets in a rifle. You ARE going to be contacting the primer right in the center. As far as lead bullets are concerned, modern hard cast bullets are plenty hard enough to dent a primer. With the mighty smack of a column of bullets shoving back every time you work the action, I just don't see the point of taking a chance. You never know when you are pushing the envelope until a disaster happens. All my cowboy rounds have a meplat bigger in diameter than a primer.

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

Greenriver's example proves one thing - a soft lead bullet, RN or RNFP, won't set off a primer no matter how hard you beat on it. It's not a firing pin which is harder and concentrates all its energy into a very small area. And even then there's no guarantee the primer will fire ... light hits, anyone?

 

One thing to consider is how the cartridges sit in the mag tube. They don't line up perfectly nose to tail - since they have enough slide and wobble room for the rims to pass without binding, they actually sit in the tube at a slight angle so the bullet nose isn't in absolute alignment with the primer of the round ahead of it. With a straight wall case there's some offset of the nose, with a bottleneck like the 44-40 or 30-30 there's even more. So nose-to-primer contact doesn'y apparently happen enough to worry about it.

 

I spent some time today trying to find any documented examples of this happening - Leverguns, 24 Hour Campfire, The High Road ... more sites than I can list. Plenty of anecdotes but no eye witness accounts. The only real instance I found of an accidental in-tube discharge happened to one of the testers at Starline. It was the last round in the magazine of a 95 Marlin. The theory is that the nose of the bullet ( a hard cast flat point ) of the next-to-last round waiting to be loaded got skewed enough so that the edge caught the primer of the last round. Keep in mind that there's a bump in the mag tube on the 95 that cants it at an angle before it goes on the carrier. It's not a straight tube like on every other rifle. So at best this is an anomaly, as they weren't able to repeat the incident.

 

One theory advanced on one site is the possibility of a high primer on the round that fired. Again, just a theory with no experimentation to prove it. However, it's always a good idea to check your ammunition for high primers anyway.

 

I did find references to a magazine article where they tried to make it happen, and finally did. It took using jacketed spitzer point bullets, which we all know isn't too bright a thing to do in a tubular magazine anyway. And since that's not the issue here, it doesn't apply.

 

FWIW, I've loaded and shot RN, RNFP, and SWC in my rifles with out any problems for years. I think the odds of having a meteorite crash through my roof are better than having a round go off in a mag tube.

[el Gato Gordo - SASS #15162]

Nothing wrong with LRN bullets, UNLESS you are shooting a Henry (original design or Big Boy), that loads in the tube and not in the frame.

 

I used RNL for years before I started reloading, and they worked great. I do remember, back in the late 90's, some instances of someone loading a Henry (original design)rifle, and dropping the bullets in VERTICALLY or nearly so, instead of the recommended nearly horizontal attitude and having bullets explode in the mag tube.

 

But with a '66 or '73, I have had no trouble, and I haven't heard of anyone else having trouble with round nose lead bullets, either.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

[Rio Brazos Kid]

What a load of baloney!!!!!!! Half of the bullets made especially for a 30-30 are round nose, Of course some are flat nose, but many are not.

 

Shooting R.N. bullets in SASS calibers isn't going to set off primers, and probably wouldn't set off primers if pointed bullets were used, due to the almost non existant recoil. However, pointed bullets are a no-no in tubular magazines.

 

Having been in the shooting games for nearly 60 years, I have NEVER even heard of a round nosed bullet setting of a chain reaction in a tubular magazine. Personally, I have shot many thousands of R.N. bullets through guns with tubular magazines, and have absolutely no fear of ever having any problem.

 

Do as you will, but the litigation climate today is where that is coming from, and not reality, or common sense.

 

RBK

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Some of the LRN 38 bullets are pretty pointy to me. The 93 grain you are using is probably not nearly as sharp.

 

But I remember hearing about the 66 accident that Joe West mentioned. In fact, the same shooter had an old copy of the 73 carbine - which I bought from him. And he mentioned about having to have his 66 rebuilt and it took almost a year to get all the parts, etc since it was a very early copy. I guessing that he was using those rather pointy bullets as those were much more common back then.

 

Greeenriver, I'd be more interested in your test if you used a primed brass. The physics would be much different than merely using a primer in the open. I know from playing with primers that it is much harder to set off a primer they way you mention compared to having the primer confined in the brass. Evidently, the design of the primer anvil etc largely depends on that confinement to be readily set off.

The test may turn out the same as you have done, but it would be interesting to try it with a primed brass to validate it.

[Buffalo Dick, SASS #12880]

I haven't seen a Marlin brochure for a couple of years, but for decades they had a photo of the various cartridges used in their rifles. Included in the photo were the lead round nose .38spl and .44spl rounds. Having said that, I use rnfp bullets when I load because that is what is sold by most casters.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Back in the day just about all the 32 special ammo other than winchester silver tips were round nose. Doubt any SASS main match rifle generates any where near the recoil. Think the real answer is back in the 50s there were not as many lawyers and people were a little less prone to sue.

 

Having said that with the availability of LRNFP and truncated cone bullets there is no really good reason to shoot the round nose and the two previously mentioned bullets are probably safer. The round nose may well be safe enough but why push the envelop? If you use the round nose and the rifle blows up, Marlin's lawyers will say "Dummy we told you not to do that, you have just voided the warrantee and now we want court costs"

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

Some of the LRN 38 bullets are pretty pointy to me. The 93 grain you are using is probably not nearly as sharp.

 

But I remember hearing about the 66 accident that Joe West mentioned. In fact, the same shooter had an old copy of the 73 carbine - which I bought from him. And he mentioned about having to have his 66 rebuilt and it took almost a year to get all the parts, etc since it was a very early copy. I guessing that he was using those rather pointy bullets as those were much more common back then.

 

Greeenriver, I'd be more interested in your test if you used a primed brass. The physics would be much different than merely using a primer in the open. I know from playing with primers that it is much harder to set off a primer they way you mention compared to having the primer confined in the brass. Evidently, the design of the primer anvil etc largely depends on that confinement to be readily set off.

The test may turn out the same as you have done, but it would be interesting to try it with a primed brass to validate it.

 

 

On of these days when I'mfeeling closed in here and it's snowing and blowing, and I have nothing else to do, I'll give that a try. Now that you mention it, I'm wondering if having the primer enclosed in the brass may make a diference myself. On another note, I've been playing with some cartridges here on the desk tonight. Got a box of Rem 30-30's, 170 gr Core-loke SP's, and a box of Winchester 225GR Jaketed HP's for hunting with my '92 rifles I've been using the last year or so. A box of 45-70's with a 405GR RNFP, box of 38 Sp with a 125 GR TCFP, and a box of the Hornady 225 GR FTX Leverevolution rounds. I've been putting 3 of each end to end as they would be in a tube Mag and looking at the results, and here is what I've seen tonight.

 

As would be expected, the 45-70 has a larg enough flat point that the lead flat point rest against both the brass ctg head and the primer. Layed on their side, the lead actialy touches the primer slightly, but is mostly supported by the case head.

The 30-30's are mostly resting against the case head, and only slightly against the primer when end to end on their sides.

The 38 spc's again, like the others, are resting mostly against the case head, and only slightly against the primer.

The 200 GR cast bullets I use in my 45 Colts laods have a large flat that is supported entirely by the cast head and don't make any contact with the primers.

The 225 GR Hornady loads, however, have the plastic insert in the HP cavity that only makes contact with the primer of the round in front of it. This is the load using the LEVERevolution bullet that is advertised as being safe in a tube mag rifle. And I've shot nearly 100 of them so far with no problems.

 

What I've seen here tonight shows me that most any rimed case, end to end on a flat surface, will slightly contact the primer of the round ahead of it. The rim holds the caseat a slight angle and even most FP bullets will make a slight contact with the primer.

 

Believe me, I'm not trying to convence anyone to use a bullet they don't feel is safe, but based on my tests here at home, I don't see as much danger in a lead bullet making contact with the primer of the case ahead of it as some do.

 

But again, don't take my word for things. I recomend that everyone try these simple things at home. If your shooting CAS, you have a few loaded rounds in the house, lay a few out end to end and see for your self just where and how much they make contact. Don't take much time to try them, and may put yoru mind to rest. Everything I tried here rested both on the primer slightly, and mostly on the base of the front case.

 

I'll give it a try in a few days to see how the anvel and hammer test works on a primed case. Got a couple split cases I can cut down and prime to try. I'm interested in finding out how it comes out, myself now.

 

Greeenriver

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

Marauder,

first, very glad you're doing better! I pray you and Alice come through all this just fine.

On the subject, I wondered at the time if the follower had hung up briefly then cut loose. Wasn't enough in the debris to tell. The tube was pretty mangled but Fergie saved it as it was a different dimension than the later mfg part as well.

Remember later, another of our friend's Henry blew at Macon, Lonesome Valley,[ but was it Lfp 44-40s or .45 colts?] when the follower slipped a long way. Messed his hand up some. I'll ask him when I give his 1911's back.

Anyway ever since the '66 blew up near my head I check every lever guns mag tube that comes in the shop no matter what.

Even if I had not seen it close up, it's just not that difficult for me to think a real pointy hard cast bullet can line up every once in a while with the nice soft primer so many prefer. I'm real glad the young fellow Moon loaned his rifle to wasn't hurt.

Pard I hope I see you soon .

Joe

[Yellowhouse Sam # 25171]

I have no fear whatsoever of using RN factory ammo in my 30-30, etc as the core is soft lead. However, some of the commercial bullets with BHN 15 and over make me nervous. Nope, no linotype alloy bullets for me unless they have a good sized meplat.