Round nose bullets in a tubular magazine

[G. P. Cobb]

much ado over nothing.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

This comes up about every year, same thing with experts from both sides saying "they heard, or someone told them, or they read" RN set off multiple charges in a tubular magazine. Yet bullet manufacturers still make RN for them, and shooters shot them for over a 100th years.

Anyone ever hear of a chain reaction of a .22 going off in tubular magazines, since the whole bottom of a .22 is in contact? MT

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

I shot round nose, .230 grain bullets in a .45 Winchester 73 for five years, and never had a problem -- but I quit, because I felt there COULD BE a problem. We're dealing with firearms not cork guns -- why take risks if they're avoidable?

[Madd Mike #8595]

this question gets the same answers every winter

[Colorado Blackjack, SASS #58441]

it has always amazed me that people will say they will not shoot round nose lead in a magazine fed rifle because there is a chance of sometime maybe being a problem they heard from someone else if the stars are aligned just right. better safe than sorry they say no matter how small the chance of an issue. but they wiill have no problem getting into their family truckster to drive to and from the range KNOWING that people WILL die in their vehicles on THAT day.

 

joe west,

how is a .30.30 round different??

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Anyone ever hear of a chain reaction of a .22 going off in tubular magazines, since the whole bottom of a .22 is in contact? MT

.22 rimfire shells and our CAS centerfire have two different priming mechanisms. Best not to use this as an example - it is NOT THE SAME! Round nose .22 rimfire shells are certified by the factory as safe in tubular magazines.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Greeenriver SASS #38681]

Seen this and wondered. Always thought that the rimfire 22's would be very safe in a tube mag rifle, and have never had one set off a chainfire, so still think they are safe, but I did lay 3 Federal Bulk Pack 22LR HP's on the desk, and guess what, the bullet are setting against the rim with the priming coumpound in it every way I moved them. Must be safe, they don't go off and I ain't a bit worried about using them.

 

I truly thought the bullets would touch in the center of the base, but when layed on their side, the bullets are right against the rims containing the primer coumpound.

 

Learn something new every day, I do. And forget a little more than I learn each day, too.

 

Greeenriver

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I did lay 3 Federal Bulk Pack 22LR HP's on the desk, and guess what, the bullet are setting against the rim with the priming coumpound in it every way I moved them. Must be safe, they don't go off and I ain't a bit worried about using them.

 

I truly thought the bullets would touch in the center of the base, but when layed on their side, the bullets are right against the rims containing the primer coumpound.

 

G -

 

You have to look even closer than what you did. The rounded nose of the typical 22 slug keeps the rim of the cartridge in front of it safe from being impacted, because the rounded "shoulder" prevents the lead of the slug from touching the very rim of the cartridge. If you look close, you will see how the lead can't quite touch the rim. The tip of the nose against the base of the shell, and the side of the nose against your desk (or the magazine wall) keeps the EDGE (shoulder) of the nose away from the rim.

 

Now, IF the nose of the .22 slug were a sharp edged cylinder, when the shells stack in the mag tube, yes, there might be contact with the rim where the priming compound is. But even that would be hard to achieve unless the bullet was badly deformed, because of the slight angle off of straight that .22 shells sit within a tubular magazine.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

joe west,

how is a .30.30 round different??

A company with a manufacturers, say that 3 times!, ffl that loads 30-30 or other calibers primarily intended for magazine tube fed firearms knows going in that they have to provide a round that is as safe as possible for that application.

If you reload your own 30-30 rounds you might find your loading manual reminding you that "The use of flat or blunt nosed bullets is required for use in tubular magazines." [from Lyman loading manual I got it in 1973, cover's gone so no pub. date].

Load data for 30-30 will list a specific bullet that was intended for the common 30-30 tubular magazines. Loading manuals such as the VhitaVuori Oy 1-97 p.8 says" "This guide must be supplementedby a good reloading handbook such as the Lyman Reloading Manual..."

A 30-30 round is a lot bigger in the rim area than a .38 spl. It's a lot harder to hit the primer even if the mag follwer jumps and commercial rifle rounds use on the average harder primers than the federals many gunsmiths set up cas action jobs for.

Looking in my newer 1992 Lyman manual it not only repeats the warning in the 30-30 section but adds this about loading .357 for tubular mag rifles "The Marlin rifles chambered for .357 have become popular............. use only blunt or flat point bullets in the tubular magazine of the Marlin." Hodgdon reloading guides such as Basic Reloaders guide 2005 say at the start of the Pistol and rifle sections " loads in this section should be followed just as they are printed."

No pointy round nose bullets are listed for cowboy shooting. Contact Mike Daly, Birdshot, if he tells you it's safe go for it.

I've been around firearms for awhile. I grew up with lever guns, got my first real gun in 1958.

So I didn't have to see my friend's gun blow up to know it was possible. I don't need to see it again to know I don't like it on my range.

You can do whatever you want, where ever the owners of the property will let you.

I am probably not alone in my appreciation of so many folks being willing to let me know I'll never want to run the timer for them.

It's a long shot your gun will blow up just like it's unlikely you'll get struck by lightning even if you run around outside in an electrical storm holding up an antenna. It's just one of the risks I choose not to take.

Joe

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

.22 rimfire shells and our CAS centerfire have two different priming mechanisms. Best not to use this as an example - it is NOT THE SAME! Round nose .22 rimfire shells are certified by the factory as safe in tubular magazines.

 

Good luck, GJ

It was a bad example, but every lever action I have does addresses the use of ammo, "not to use spitzer bullets in a tubular magazine", nothing about round nose etc. My Ubertis, Rossi's, Winchesters, and Henry all say this. These manufacturers cover themselves very good so to avoid future lawsuits. But it also says in all my Rifle manual under safety, and you may check it out in the Safety Manual part, under "Ammunition" , "never use reloaded or hand loaded ammunition". Also for years Winchester and other bullet manufacturers have sold RN bullets for these rifles. I would think with the discussions we have here, Uberti, Winchester, Henry, Rossi, etc. would have added to the "Ammunito warnings," not to use RN bullets.

Sometimes thing some of the things said are just "Urban Legends". The I heard, or I read. Been shooting RN in lever guns, and the person I bought my original Winchester from had been shooting RN, this rifle has been fed RN for over 80 years in it now. MT

This discussion could go on for ever, with thoughts on both sides.

[Willie Shootum]

I was concerned about a chain fire problem as you described. I did not have a mold that cast a flat nose. So I took a wood block slightly longer than a 45 cartridge. I drilled a 5/8" hole through it and cut the block so that about 1/6 inch of the bullet nose stuck out past the end of the block. Then I just rubed the block with the bullet sticking out across a file and with about three strokes I have a 1/4" flat on the nose of my lead bullet. This is will get me through until my new mold which is on back order comes in. Willie

[Madd Mike #8595]

ok

trick question for the orginial poster

 

HOW round is the bullit??????????????????????/

 

pointie

or round

kinda round

alomost point-eeeeeeeee

 

these things I just gotta know

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

I did it for oh about 30 or 40 years. But I was younger and dumber.

 

I doan do it no mo.

 

There are wiser alternatives. I like to think I am a little wiser now too.

[Ruff Cobb]

I had one cartridge go off in the tube of a 73 about four years ago. I had loaded ten, fired several & heard a pop when I levered.

 

I was practicing by myself at the time, immediately stopped, & cleared the action. I was shooting up some 150 grain round nose 38/357 I'd picked up in Cheyenne as a table prize or some such.

 

After dissassembly I found an empty round & loose bullet in the mag tube. The expended round had a concave mark in the primer. Primer was a Federal small pistol.

 

I examined the remainder of the rounds in the tube & the batch I'd loaded & discovered several slightly high primers probably caused by combo of old brass & dirty primer pockets. None were among those remaining in the tube.

 

I figured at the time it was a tolerance stack combo of a slightly high primer & round nose. I did not experience a chain fire & I didn't try to replicate the incident.

 

My conclusion (speculation only, I'm no expert) is that this was a high primer event but I've never been too lucky & I'm not going to take a chance on a repeat.

 

I fired the remaining rounds through a Ruger revolver and the slightly high primers I mentioned finding were not dragging on the recoil shield. YMMV

 

Ruff Cobb in exile in TN till March, 2011

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

Longer bottle neck cartridges in a tube magazine "line up" with the tip of the boolits or bullets against the outer rim of the cartridge ahead of it, not upon the primer. There is a neat pic demonstrating that and it may be in Mike Venturino's RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST. not sure. BUT, shorter straight wall cases rest tip to primer in the tube. When I was looking for a better black powder boolit for the Marlin rile, I asked Mike Venturino about using the original Lyman/Ideal 454-190. He said "NO!", small metplat is "too pointy to be absolutely safe" and that I had to consider by tanders as well as myself.

 

That conversation let to the huge metplat that my PRS 454-250-RF sports. In the .38, Snakebite used a flat nose on his renditon of the huge lube canyon boolit. The flat is purt small, but I recall he said its just larger than a primer cup for safety. The round cuycles in 357mag rifles like butter through a goose! Thing is, that is a BP boolit for use in 38spcl brss to meet 357mag OAL, so may not apply to smokeless powder or 38spcl only chambers. Anyway, don't do it, it may be me you hurt -- or someone worthwhile ;-)

 

Using the file to get a flat head is workable, I quess; but when I was sperimenting I found it very easy to make a top punch for the Lyman bullet sizer luber that would "bump" the noses flat or even create a shallow dished hollow point on the 454-190.

 

Tube magazine ADs are not myth, but are rare. I think the more common ones are from dropping rounds down into a Henry magazine tube -- for sure do not do that! Never heard of it happening with a 32 spcl or 30-30.

 

prs

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

naysayers will recommend not to use them.

 

I have shot thousands of them years ago, cast soft, with loads that were heavier than yours.

 

The recoil of the .38 Special isn't significant enough to set off the primer in front of it.

 

Need more proof? Remington loads a 170 grain RN in their .30/30 ammo. Winchester also loads a RNHP with the jacket to the nose. Some say that they can do so because the cartridge tiups to keep the point away from the primer but I have done much testing with blue marking paper (I don't know the real term for it) and have almost to a round, had the primers touching the bullet noses. Why don't they go off? Bullet shape and hardness. The bullet is round but blunted and the lead is dead soft. I wouldn't try this with pointed bullets of hard cast RN's of the same profile but soft or low recoiling rounds are OK in my experience.

 

The lore of exploding magazines stem from rifles like the Henry. This is caused by not easing the follower down and letting it slam. Or having a loaded round with a very high primer. This is probably what 99.999% of magazine detonations are. I would love to speak to a person that actually had a magazine explosion and examine some of the reloads used at the time. I'd lay odds that somewhere, you'll find high primers.....

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Longer bottle neck cartridges in a tube magazine "line up" with the tip of the boolits or bullets against the outer rim of the cartridge ahead of it, not upon the primer. There is a neat pic demonstrating that and it may be in Mike Venturino's RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST. not sure. BUT, shorter straight wall cases rest tip to primer in the tube. When I was looking for a better black powder boolit for the Marlin rile, I asked Mike Venturino about using the original Lyman/Ideal 454-190. He said "NO!", small metplat is "too pointy to be absolutely safe" and that I had to consider by tanders as well as myself.

 

That conversation let to the huge metplat that my PRS 454-250-RF sports. In the .38, Snakebite used a flat nose on his renditon of the huge lube canyon boolit. The flat is purt small, but I recall he said its just larger than a primer cup for safety. The round cuycles in 357mag rifles like butter through a goose! Thing is, that is a BP boolit for use in 38spcl brss to meet 357mag OAL, so may not apply to smokeless powder or 38spcl only chambers. Anyway, don't do it, it may be me you hurt -- or someone worthwhile ;-)

 

Using the file to get a flat head is workable, I quess; but when I was sperimenting I found it very easy to make a top punch for the Lyman bullet sizer luber that would "bump" the noses flat or even create a shallow dished hollow point on the 454-190.

 

Tube magazine ADs are not myth, but are rare. I think the more common ones are from dropping rounds down into a Henry magazine tube -- for sure do not do that! Never heard of it happening with a 32 spcl or 30-30.

 

prs

 

 

Pard, all that you stated here run contrary to my experiments, and I have run them, not just heard about somebody that knows somebody that said that he heard about somebody that has done them.

 

My .38 bullets (Snakebite Greasewagons) have a meplat exactly the size of a small pistol primer, I've measured them. I agree that the Lyman 454190 is too small as it is smaller than the large pistol primer....

 

Good indicator is if you can place the rufle butt up to your mouth and fire the rifle. If it hurts, there may be a chance of recoil being a factor. It takes quite a pit to dent the primer cups and set off the fulminate. No pain, not enough recoil. Now, full loads in a .44 Magnum, INHO, have enough recoil to set off a high primer or a perfect scenario of bullet to primer placement.

 

I agree with the Henry magazine issue though. I have not run these but they do seem logical.

[Uno Mas SASS #80082]

.

I look at it a little pragmatically: the potential cost of replacing or repairing the rifle and my fingers far outweighs any benefit of using suspect pointy nose leads. I use nothing but truncated cone flat points.

 

Plus, I'm a chicken, with a lifetime membership in the "I've never seen that happen before" club.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

With the millions of rounds that are fired in CAS if it was really a problem wouldn't we heard a lot more about it?

[Dirtwater Doc 17941]

Even flat points can detonate when a high primer is to blame.

 

I still have a pair of pants that were "modified" when a new shooter was improperly loading an 1860 Henry during a match about 8 years back. He had it in the muzzle up position and was DROPPING the rounds into the tube. The third one detonated and while the tube held, it sprayed lead out of the gap and hit me in the leg. It stung but there was no penetration. The cause was high primers and improper loading technique.

 

DD

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

If we are ever in a "Dawn of the Dead" situation and the zombies are knocking down my front door and all I have is round nosed ammo for a tube magazine rifle yeah I am loading and using them.

 

But I'm playing a game and there are better choices in bullets so I'll use those.

 

Most of the danger from a chain fire in a tube magazine is from shrapnel from the fore end and the tube itself. I stand behind the shooter when timing so I am not real worried about what ammo a shooter is using. But when I am shooting my hand is wrapped around the forearm and mag tube.

 

I'll take risks when I have to, but I'll eliminate every risk I can. Just something I learned from 26 years of fire fighting.

 

Smoke

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

naysayers will recommend not to use them.

 

Hmmm - I guess if a Marlin manual (or other mfg manual) recommends not using them is a naysayer...ummmm..ok

 

GG ~

[Guest Joe West, SASS#1532 L Regulator]

The funny thing was the shrapnel from my friends '66, .38 spl that chain fired in the mag tube was from the side plate blowing out and apart. Yep the tube was mangled but as mentioned in my much earlier post, it was salvagable. Guess it didn't know .38s don't have enough energy to do that.

I suppose if you're going to blow one up it's better to use a '73, Marlin, or, 92.

Those chunks of sharp edged brass could be nasty.

Joe

[Pigeonroost Slim , #36403]

Pard, all that you stated here run contrary to my experiments, and I have run them, not just heard about somebody that knows somebody that said that he heard about somebody that has done them.

 

My .38 bullets (Snakebite Greasewagons) have a meplat exactly the size of a small pistol primer, I've measured them. I agree that the Lyman 454190 is too small as it is smaller than the large pistol primer....

 

Good indicator is if you can place the rufle butt up to your mouth and fire the rifle. If it hurts, there may be a chance of recoil being a factor. It takes quite a pit to dent the primer cups and set off the fulminate. No pain, not enough recoil. Now, full loads in a .44 Magnum, INHO, have enough recoil to set off a high primer or a perfect scenario of bullet to primer placement.

 

I agree with the Henry magazine issue though. I have not run these but they do seem logical.

 

Smokepole dun went 'n said; "Pard, all that you stated here run contrary to my experiments." Well, from what I comprehend of your statement in total, about all you disagree with about my statement is that bit about the longer bottle neck cartridges ligning-up off kelter in a tube mag. The rest we were pretty much in alignment with one another. LOL I appreciate your experimenting and that was a neat idea about using the carbon paper to blue the contact ppppoints. I wish I could recall where it was I saw that pic about the 30-30 rounds in the mag; but now that I think about it, it may have been a drawing of the author's concept or such. I'm not gonna use round nose in tube mag anyway, I have no molds for those.

 

Keep yer powssder dry!

 

Slim

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

The funny thing was the shrapnel from my friends '66, .38 spl that chain fired in the mag tube was from the side plate blowing out and apart. Yep the tube was mangled but as mentioned in my much earlier post, it was salvagable. Guess it didn't know .38s don't have enough energy to do that.

I suppose if you're going to blow one up it's better to use a '73, Marlin, or, 92.

Those chunks of sharp edged brass could be nasty.

Joe

 

 

Joe,

 

I can see where that could easily happen on the toggle link guns especially those with brass frames. The pressure no matter how much or how little is going to follow the path of least resistance.

 

My point was if another shooter has a chain fire he will bear the brunt of it, as I will be behind him. If I experience a chain fire it is my hands, shoulder, chest, and face catching the shrapnel. Since FP bullets are readily available and they apparently minimize the risk of a chain fire that is what I will use.

 

Just the view from my saddle,

 

Smoke

[Badlands Beady]

Hmmm - I guess if a Marlin manual (or other mfg manual) recommends not using them is a naysayer...ummmm..ok

 

GG ~

 

Do you believe everything you read in gun manuals? Like, the bit about only shooting factory-loaded ammo?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Do you believe everything you read in gun manuals? Like, the bit about only shooting factory-loaded ammo?

 

Usually - yeah. Especially when it refers to SAAMI spec ammo. If a reload is within those specs and loaded proper it can meet or exceeds factory specs.

 

 

GG ~

[BlackhawkPaul]

Supposed pictures of a mag tube explosion and discussion-

 

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73196

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Hmmm - I guess if a Marlin manual (or other mfg manual) recommends not using them is a naysayer...ummmm..ok

 

GG ~

 

 

That's because of litigation concerns and the fact that they cannot control the exact taper of the bullet nor the hardness. They also cannot control the moron that takes a pointy spitzer bullet with a jacket to the nose...

 

Gotta cover all bases for CYA...

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Usually - yeah. Especially when it refers to SAAMI spec ammo. If a reload is within those specs and loaded proper it can meet or exceeds factory specs.

 

 

GG ~

 

 

It can meet all of the specs set down by SAAMI or the European equivelent but it still voids your warranty...

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

It can meet all of the specs set down by SAAMI or the European equivelent but it still voids your warranty...

 

Of course it can void warranty (if the manufacturer can prove you deviated from 'factory' ammo), but 1) we aren't talking about warranty and 2) my point was regarding the 'safety' of what is recommended by the factory in thier manual.

 

GG ~

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

Supposed pictures of a mag tube explosion and discussion-

 

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73196

 

This is taken from the site:

 

FWIW - had a similar concern for a RNFP bullet that had a significantlly less flat area than the primers of of the intended. The rounds would be used in lever action rifles.

 

For a test a freind and me placed an empty case with live primer only in a vice with the primer facing up.

We held a bullet in a pair of vice grips and placed it on top of the primer.

 

We each wore gloves, ear plugs, and protective eyewear.

 

While one held the bullet, the other hit it forcefully with a two pound sledgehammer to try to ignite the primer.

 

No luck.

 

The pirmer(s) were deformed somewhat.

 

We did this to about 8-10 primers. Not what you would consider scientific enough to do a statisical analysis, but good enough for us.

 

We used the softest primers out there - Federal pistol.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

That's because of litigation concerns and the fact that they cannot control the exact taper of the bullet nor the hardness. They also cannot control the moron that takes a pointy spitzer bullet with a jacket to the nose...

 

Gotta cover all bases for CYA...

 

Regardless - it is a 'recommendation' in the manual...and should be heeded. Ultimately, It's up to the end user and his/her level of safety conscienceness to practice what they will.

 

GG ~

[Captain Woodrow Cahill, SASS # 54363]

For a moment here pards, let's put on our CSI hats and look at the "evidence".

 

On the CastBoolits reference http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73196 go down to Post #10 and look at the pictures.

 

First pic in the second row, look at the primer of the round that was involved in this alleged mag tube blowout. It clearly has a firing pin indent in the primer. If it was in the tube when this incident took place, it wouldn't have that.

 

Something's fishy here ...

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

For a moment here pards, let's put on our CSI hats and look at the "evidence".

 

On the CastBoolits reference http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73196 go down to Post #10 and look at the pictures.

 

First pic in the second row, look at the primer of the round that was involved in this alleged mag tube blowout. It clearly has a firing pin indent in the primer. If it was in the tube when this incident took place, it wouldn't have that.

 

Something's fishy here ...

 

Post #28, #29, #30 and beyond address that (I think)..

 

GG ~