Broken SAA

[9245]

I just got a new to me Pietta Great Western ii “Californian” in .44-40, appeared unfired in original box.

 

I got it, cycled it, dry fired, everything was fine, better than fine actually, and I even took the cylinder out and checked the pin for any corrosion, nothing, and it still cycled fine after reassembly, but now, after finally getting ahold of some .44-40, the first time I attempted to load it it broke.  Didn’t even get a chance to fire.  Cylinder locked up after loafing the last round.

 

I was able to move it just enough to eject the last round I loaded, but the cylinder would not rotate anymore.

 

So I tried removing the cylinder, the cylinder pin was likewise also frozen, I ended up having to pull it out with needle nose pliers.

 

Thinking it was an issue with the pin I then tried to cycle it again, with the cylinder removed and the hammer locked back to the ready to fire position as per normal,  and then froze there with a dead trigger.  I cannot drop the hammer.  I tried putting the cylinder pin back in (sans cylinder) and other than again requiring pliers to remove again there was no change.

 

What happened and how can I fix it?

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Send it back

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Return it!

[Griff]

Just to be absolutely clear, the gun is now unloaded?

[9245]

Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Return it!

Wish that were an option.  I picked it up used from Bass Pro, all sales final so they said.

Just now, Griff said:

Just to be absolutely clear, the gun is now unloaded?

Yes.  I had to pull the cylinder and dump the cartridges that way.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Call Pietta then.

2 minutes ago, 9245 said:

Wish that were an option.  I picked it up used from Bass Pro, all sales final so they said.

Yes.  I had to pull the cylinder and dump the cartridges that way.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

So the hammer is still locked back?  Short of taking it apart, try pushing the hand back into its channel.  Without the cylinder in place it might have gotten "stuck" forward.  Regarding the initial problem, since it is 44-40 and it worked until you loaded it, I would first suspect the ammo.

[9245]

14 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

So the hammer is still locked back?  Short of taking it apart, try pushing the hand back into its channel.  Without the cylinder in place it might have gotten "stuck" forward.  Regarding the initial problem, since it is 44-40 and it worked until you loaded it, I would first suspect the ammo.

But I never fired it, I just dropped the rounds in to the cylinder, so how would that have jammed it?

 

I will say though that the rounds did not just drop in, I had to push them in, then tge one I was able to eject refused to fall out, I had to push it out with the ejector rod, yet when the cylinder was removed they just dropped in with no effort at all and fall right out.

 

Ammunition was Magtech 4440A.

[Griff]

47 minutes ago, 9245 said:

Wish that were an option.  I picked it up used from Bass Pro, all sales final so they said.

Yes.  I had to pull the cylinder and dump the cartridges that way.

Technically, no sales are final until 72 hours have passed.  If Bass Pro did their usual schtick, refusing you the opportunity to function test it prior to sale, they effectively warranted fit for purpose.  Return it to where you purchased it and demand they fix iti.  Consult a lawyer or use your Google-foo for proper legalese.  Document everything in writing w/photos.  Make sure to get a receipt w/full description of gun, make, model, physical description, cal;, bbl length, finish, etc., including serial no.

 

Or... suck it up & try to effect repairs on your own w/a little help from folks here.  If you go this route, buy a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers... Midway ot Brownells sell sets for specific guns.   

 

1st, you do not have a SAA.  You have a SAA Clone.  The GWIIs are a very close copy, but are not a Single Action Army. 2nd, Colts SAAs and their copies are notorious for breaking while dry-firing.  Don't do it.  

Edited December 14, 2024 by Griff

[9245]

21 minutes ago, Griff said:

Technically, no sales are final until 72 hours have passed.  If Bass Pro did their usual schtick, refusing you the opportunity to function test it prior to sale, they effectively warranted fit for purpose.  Return it to where you purchased it and demand they fix iti.  Consult a lawyer or use your Google-foo for proper legalese.  Document everything in writing w/photos.  Make sure to get a receipt w/full description of gun, make, model, physical description, cal;, bbl length, finish, etc., including serial no.

 

Or... suck it up & try to effect repairs on your own w/a little help from folks here.  If you go this route, buy a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers... Midway ot Brownells sell sets for specific guns.   

 

1st, you do not have a SAA.  You have a SAA Clone.  The GWIIs are a very close copy, but are not a Single Action Army. 2nd, Colts SAAs and their copies are notorious for breaking while dry-firing.  Don't do it.  

Unfortunately it has been more than 3 days.  I was waiting for SGammo to ship me the ammunition.

[Griff]

7 minutes ago, 9245 said:

Unfortunately it has been more than 3 days.  I was waiting for SGammo to ship me the ammunition.

 Then you're dependent on how willing they are to make you into a happy customer.  Or bite the bullet, send it off to a gunsmith and be wiser about from whom you buy used guns... or fix it yourself, remaining wiser, and now smarter as you'll be infinitely more capable of doing so again!  INO, smarter & wiser is the better option.

[9245]

8 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

So the hammer is still locked back?  Short of taking it apart, try pushing the hand back into its channel.  Without the cylinder in place it might have gotten "stuck" forward.  Regarding the initial problem, since it is 44-40 and it worked until you loaded it, I would first suspect the ammo.

You were right about the hand, it got jammed, when I pressed on it it released the hammer, I reassembled it and it worked fine again, but only when empty.  I attempted to load it again and the problem repeated.

 

The cylinder was getting hard to turn and by the last round the hammer would no longer move back past half cock.  I fiddled with the cylinder pin and I got it to work intermittently if I had the pin partially removed but ultimately the cylinder would jam and so would the hammer.

 

I finally had to remove the cylinder to unload again.

 

But on reassembly it would work fine again, but, again, as soon as I loaded cartridges it would jam.

 

I noticed though after finally giving up for the day and packing up that the cartridges that I had been using were all scratched across the back.  Here is a picture, look at the last row of cartridges carefully, see tge scratches?  Only those ones have those scratches.

 

Any ideas?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Show a picture of the firing pin hole from the cylinder side. 

[Warden Callaway]

Your ammo is too fat. Bullets too large ment for 44 Special or Magnum. 430 diameter.  Probably shouldn't be 427. Ammo should fall in up to rim with no effort and fall out. Look for burs on recoil shield. 

[9245]

32 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Show a picture of the firing pin hole from the cylinder side. 

OK, here you go.

 

Running my finger across the hole I feel a slight raised edge, a burr from drilling the hole by the feel of it.  Two pictures, one with and one without flash.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Burr is probably from dry firing. Happens a lot. Try stoning that flat and see if that doesn’t solve your problem.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

3 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Burr is probably from dry firing. Happens a lot. Try stoning that flat and see if that doesn’t solve your problem.

And if it doesn't, then like Kid Rich said, your chambers are too tight for that ammo.  A common problem with 44-40.

[9245]

17 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Burr is probably from dry firing. Happens a lot. Try stoning that flat and see if that doesn’t solve your problem.

How do I do that?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

7 minutes ago, 9245 said:

How do I do that?

Very carefully with a fine stone. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Reassemble it and take it back to Bass Pro and trade it in on a Ruger New Vaquero in .357 magnum.  Your life will be much simpler.

[Warden Callaway]

Try some name brand ammo like Winchester or Remington.  I love the 44WCF but there is a learning curve. 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Who's the ammo maker in the picture? 

[Blackwater 53393]

It sounds like the ammunition you’re using is improperly sized.  With the cylinder removed, drop cartridges into the chambers. Look to see if they drop ALL THE WAY into each chamber to the rim on the cartridges. They SHOULD slide in freely and there should be no visible gap between the rim of the cartridges and the face of the cylinder. You should also be able to dump the unfired cartridges out of the chambers without having to push them out from the front side.

 

If any of these conditions are not met, you have two possibilities. The cartridges are not sized properly or the chambers are not bored correctly.

 

Try a different brand, (factory new, not reloads) of ammunition. If the cartridges still don’t drop in as described above, see a competent gunsmith.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

25 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Who's the ammo maker in the picture? 

 

"Ammunition was Magtech 4440A."

[Rye Miles #13621]

13 hours ago, 9245 said:

Wish that were an option.  I picked it up used from Bass Pro, all sales final so they said.

Yes.  I had to pull the cylinder and dump the cartridges that way.

Wow that’s a bad policy! Remind me to never buy a used gun from Bass Pro!😡 I’d bring it back anyway and pitch a fit! You may get some results!! It’s worth a try!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Wow that’s a bad policy! Remind me to never buy a used gun from Bass Pro!😡 I’d bring it back anyway and pitch a fit! You may get some results!! It’s worth a try!

I can't say most, but certainly many dealers sell used guns as is ... And probably most consider all firearm sales as final. If there's an issue with a new gun they'll tell you to contact the manufacturer.

 

Phantom

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

2 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

With the cylinder removed, drop cartridges into the chambers. Look to see if they drop ALL THE WAY into each chamber to the rim on the cartridges.

This and removing the burr from around the firing pin hole will probably solve your problem.  .44-40 has been produced for over 150 years and the chamber and ammo dimensions have varied widely.  If the Magtech ammo does not work try another brand.  If you have a bullet puller pull some bullets and drop the empty cases into the chamer.  Sometimes even the bullet nose shape can cause problems in some chambers.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

"Ammunition was Magtech 4440A."

That brand of ammo is the main reason for the issues. 

Edited December 14, 2024 by The Original Lumpy Gritz

[9245]

5 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Very carefully with a fine stone. 

Would these be good?

 

https://a.co/d/dm5iheL

[El Sobrante Kid]

2 hours ago, 9245 said:

Would these be good?

 

https://a.co/d/dm5iheL

 

No, what you want is typically called an "India" stone. Medium grade is for material removal, fine grade is more for minor material removal and polishing. In your case a fine India stone should work well.

 

ETA- there may be other polishing stones that work as well as, or better than, India stones, that I don't know about. Hopefully one or more of the smiths will chime in with their recommendations.

Edited December 14, 2024 by El Sobrante Kid

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

Before you do any work to the gun try other ammo!

[El Sobrante Kid]

59 minutes ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

Before you do any work to the gun try other ammo!

 

If he can see/feel/measure a raised rim around the firing pin hole, there is no reason NOT to remove it.

[9245]

3 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

No, what you want is typically called an "India" stone. Medium grade is for material removal, fine grade is more for minor material removal and polishing. In your case a fine India stone should work well.

 

ETA- there may be other polishing stones that work as well as, or better than, India stones, that I don't know about. Hopefully one or more of the smiths will chime in with their recommendations.

How about this then?  https://a.co/d/bftXABh

[9245]

I took some measurements today:

 

The gap between the end of the cylinder and the front of the frame was 0.1015 inches, the gap between the back of the cylinder and back of the frame was 0.0805 inches.

[El Sobrante Kid]

33 minutes ago, 9245 said:

How about this then?  https://a.co/d/bftXABh

 

That should work. I would also consider the triangular shape as I have found that shape to be more useful. Both/either should work well. It will be interesting to see what the professional smiths have to say about what they use.