Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 9 hours ago, Erasmus said: It's not for everyone, but it's certainly not "difficult". But it is for those that are trying to save the planet from the evils of plastic wad pollution... Phantom Quote
Erasmus Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: Cleaning a double of BP with plastic wads is easier and faster than cleaning after smokeless. Cleaning a double of BP without plastic wads is even easier! Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 8 minutes ago, Erasmus said: Cleaning a double of BP without plastic wads is even easier! Guessing so, but loading the shells I imagine takes quite a bit longer than cranking em out like smokeless ones! A couple squirts of Windex w/vinegar down the barrels followed in a couple minutes by a quarter sheet of paper towels,done! 3 1 Quote
Erasmus Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: Guessing so, but loading the shells I imagine takes quite a bit longer than cranking em out like smokeless ones! A couple squirts of Windex w/vinegar down the barrels followed in a couple minutes by a quarter sheet of paper towels,done! You can load fiber wads on your MEC if you want to load plastic hulls. I recreationally shoot some old guns. They were made when fiber wads were about the only game in town (just about). With varying quality/hardness of lead and no shot cups they tended to pattern somewhat poorly and were often choked very full. I can bore out the choke, use spreader wads in shot cups, or use fiber wads to get them to pattern a little less tightly; so I just use fiber wads in those loads. There's still a whole slew of people loading fiber wads with black or smokeless for various reasons (especially 16 ga shooters). Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. Edited October 5, 2024 by Erasmus 1 Quote
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 31 minutes ago, Erasmus said: Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. You really have an...issue...with plastic wads. Perhaps you should make peace with plastic wads. Phantom Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 It's really very straightforward... The only legal pump shotgun is the Winchester 97. It was only ever available in 12 or 16 gauge, never 20, so therefore 20 gauge is not legal for a pump shotgun. Now, it is true that the Winchester 87 was only ever chambered in 12 and 10 gauge, but there is no rule that says that the 87 is the only legal lever action shotgun. Therefore, if anyone were to theoretically make an exposed hammer tubular magazine 20 gauge lever action shotgun, either an 87 or something else, it would be, at least theoretically, legal. Why? Because those are the rules as written. We may not like them or think they should be different, or think they are fine as is, but they are the rules and we "agree" to play by them in this game. Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 Can't say I've ever noticed a plastic wad while hunting. But I've seen plenty of expended hulls in the woods. So it wouldn't really matter what material the wad was made of. 1 1 Quote
Erasmus Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: Can't say I've ever noticed a plastic wad while hunting. But I've seen plenty of expended hulls in the woods. So it wouldn't really matter what material the wad was made of. I primarily duck hunt, and in my area that often means hunting in a high traffic public place. Plastic wads (and hulls) absolutely litter the marsh. The wads tend to float and wash up on the windward side of the levee or get stuck in bushes. The hulls sometimes float and wash up on the levee, or often sink where the base (brass colored steel) eventually rusts and the plastic hull gets stuck in the mud or washes up after detaching. When I regularly hunted the national wildlife refuge (that was) near me I would spend time in the preseason fixing blinds and picking up contractor bags full of hulls, wads, decoys, and food wrappers (among other things). In cowboy shooting most people pick up their hulls and throw them away or reload them, sometimes I see people picking up wads down range after the shoot as we clean up plates. Sometimes it's obvious the club just doesn't care and allows the range to become littered with plastic wads. I, personally, prefer to keep my favorite places clean for the benefit of myself and my pards. Other people are obviously happy to recreate among their own detritus. Edited October 5, 2024 by Erasmus 1 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 5 minutes ago, Erasmus said: I would spend time in the preseason fixing blinds and picking up contractor bags full of hulls, wads, decoys, and food wrappers (among other things). Thank you, too bad more folks didn't do the same. 1 Quote
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 7 minutes ago, Erasmus said: I, personally, prefer to keep my favorite places clean for the benefit of myself and my pards. Other people are obviously happy to recreate among their own detritus. Keeping things clean...and what it is that is polluting are two separate things. And are you sure the use of the word "detritus" is appropriate as used? Phantom Quote
Seminole Sam Posted October 5, 2024 Author Posted October 5, 2024 1 hour ago, Erasmus said: You can load fiber wads on your MEC if you want to load plastic hulls. I recreationally shoot some old guns. They were made when fiber wads were about the only game in town (just about). With varying quality/hardness of lead and no shot cups they tended to pattern somewhat poorly and were often choked very full. I can bore out the choke, use spreader wads in shot cups, or use fiber wads to get them to pattern a little less tightly; so I just use fiber wads in those loads. There's still a whole slew of people loading fiber wads with black or smokeless for various reasons (especially 16 ga shooters). Not having to stare at plastic shot cups left by other hunters while walking up pheasants or decoying ducks is a couple of good ones. Not having to bend over and pick up shot cups on the cowboy range is another one. Well, I'm back from firing a shotgun for the first time since 1980. I enjoyed it a lot and learned some things. I cannot make a good Nitro card, at least for now. I have ones from Ballistic Products and I'll have to use those, My cardboard wads worked, but compress FAR too much. I planned on using 3 or 4 and as instead using like 20+ of them. Used all the ones I had made up on todays 15 test rounds. I have sheet cork coming in from Amazon and I'll use that after this. I may even try a discarded foam-core sign from work, but I do indeed need something thicker that won't compress - like the Fiber wad I'm trying to replace. 44 grains of black powder seems really weak to me. It did work and the patterns were even good, but after my 15 test rounds I fired a few commercial upland loads and they were WAY more powerful. I'm going to make some adjustments and go back to the range tomorrow with a different load. My loads were a joy to shoot - but may be too light to work for this. Quote
Erasmus Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 Commercial nitro cards are obviously very compressed and hard cardboard, replicating that wouldn't be difficult but you might be spending a lot of time with a punch. For the fiber wads, I would imagine stacks of newsprint type paper might be effective. Cork will work too. If you continue loading in plastic hulls and you want to crimp you have to build a tall enough wad column which can be a chore. If you were using brass hulls, or if you don't mind gluing in overshot cards you can get away with a much shorter wad column. While 44 grains might have seemed like a very weak load, it's likely enough to drop a popper and the decreased recoil can be nice. I'm using closer to 60 grains, but in large volume brass hulls, which gets me about 800 fps with a 7/8oz shot charge. I've not had a single failure to drop a target. Your commercial loads are probably making 1100-1300 fps; overkill for our game. Quote
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 18 minutes ago, Seminole Sam said: I fired a few commercial upland loads and they were WAY more powerful. You seem bound and determined to make loading shotshells as difficult as possible. That is fine, it is a learning curve. Remember the rules - Magnum and high velocity shotgun shells are not allowed. Upland loads are way OVERKILL for cowboy shooting. 3 4 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted October 5, 2024 Posted October 5, 2024 All that to avoid plastic! 42 grains will take em down every time. 1 Quote
Seminole Sam Posted October 5, 2024 Author Posted October 5, 2024 1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: You seem bound and determined to make loading shotshells as difficult as possible. That is fine, it is a learning curve. Remember the rules - Magnum and high velocity shotgun shells are not allowed. Upland loads are way OVERKILL for cowboy shooting. I would hope so. I only fired commercial rounds as a basis for comparison. They were not comfortable to fire, even with this relatively heavy double barrel. Quote
watab kid Posted October 6, 2024 Posted October 6, 2024 19 hours ago, Erasmus said: Loading brass is probably off topic for this thread but, it's easy, and doesn't require another loader. Though if you load for pistol or rifle that will make priming easier. For me, I deprime with a pin punch, I prime with an RCBS shell holder on my turret press. I toss in a scoop of FFg powder, press in a nitro card with a dowel, wipe a bit of lube on a cushion wad and press that in. Then a scoop of shot, press in an overshot card, run a bead of Elmer's School Glue around the card. Once they're dry I put them in boxes until my next shoot. My light load of black doesn't requiring resizing the hulls. The brass hulls are heavy enough to generally come out smoothly. A 1-1/4 oz (lead shot) scoop of bismuth 3s over a 1-1/4oz (shot) scoop of black FFg kills ducks well so long as you give them a bit more lead. It's not for everyone, but it's certainly not "difficult". I've also used 18.0 grains of Red Dot under 1-1/8oz shot. It chrono around 900 fps if I recall correctly. you make it sound easy , but you must realize some of us are not as young and easily retrained as others , iim looking at this , but ive got three cartridges i shoot that im setting up for at this point and not enough free time for any at the moment ---dont let anyone tell you retirement is free time to do as you please , im not sure how i had time to work before retirement Quote
watab kid Posted October 6, 2024 Posted October 6, 2024 12 hours ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said: I load trap loads too using the same press and settings I use for much lighter loads for CAS. I just use different wads, a different charge bar, different powder and different powder bushings for the CAS loads. I don't save much loading for clays over buying commercial rounds but was able to keep shooting when ammo disappeared for over a year. However, my 7/8 oz loads are considerably less expensive than low noise low recoil AAs and always available unlike lnlr AAs. im not loading trap loads anymore - i shoot a lot les trap than SASS but i hear what your saying here , i did load about 7k rounds of SASS before my hornaday 366 gave me enough fits to change to the PW im currently using , i have a fair supply of trap rounds in the basement - enough to shoot all the trap ill shoot the rest of my life , and enough SASS loads to carry me for a good number of years so perhaps ill get the time to mess about with brass cases soon , 1 Quote
Erasmus Posted October 7, 2024 Posted October 7, 2024 (edited) 23 hours ago, watab kid said: so perhaps ill get the time to mess about with brass cases soon , If you do decide to load brass cases and can't find answers to your questions feel free to hit me up. I enjoy loading them and will happily pass on that gouge without any gatekeeping, naive semantic nit picking, or making it overly difficult (as would most of the pards here). Edited October 7, 2024 by Erasmus Quote
watab kid Posted October 7, 2024 Posted October 7, 2024 32 minutes ago, Erasmus said: If you do decide to load brass cases and can't find answers to your questions feel free to hit me up. I enjoy loading them and will happily pass on that gouge without any gatekeeping, naive semantic nit picking, or making it overly difficult (as would most of the pards here). i appreciate that , thank you very much , i just made a note of that , as soon as i complete my 4570 stuff ill look into this , it does sound fun and i love the old west look and feel of them , i have a feeling id enjoy this a lot , 1 Quote
Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 Posted October 9, 2024 Posted October 9, 2024 In the early years of our sport, Marlin had produced a 12ga and 20ga hammer pump shotgun and it was legal to use in our sport. I owned one. In 1998, Marlin published a letter stating all old Marlin Shotguns where not safe for use with modern ammo and all Marlin shotguns and any other older pump shotguns were banned and the rules were changed to stated Winchester Model 97 shotguns only. A few gunsmiths had converted 16 ga 97's to 20 ga, but they were also outlawed. According to the Winchester history, only 2 prototype 20ga 97's were produced but they where never released to the public. When the Winchester 87 clones were built, there were plans for a 20ga model and I was on the waiting list for one, but they ended up not being produced. Since my preferred shotgun has always been a 20ga, I researched them to find the different 20ga shotguns that I could use over the years. I have a original 20ga double barrel hammer shotgun from the 1930's that I use sometimes and carry as a backup shotgun. If you Goggle those questions , you will find old SASS and CAS City wires posts that discussed this topic over the years. Quote
Gunner, SASS #1940 Posted December 3, 2024 Posted December 3, 2024 (edited) Marlin did make a model 31, that had an exposed hammer, tubular fed, 5 round magazine, that WAS LEGAL for SASS, and in 20ga. Then SASS to my grand disappointment banned all pump actions shotgun on the period, that previously met their qualifications, except for the Win 97 and their clones. So they threw out, the Burgess, the Spencer and ALL Marlin pump action shotguns. So once upon a time, if you are of a certain age, it was legal and was shot. I know, because my BIL bought a 20ga and I shot it. I also owned a Marlin pump in Sweet 16, and used that in matches with all brass shotshells. Bahhh humbug! Edited December 3, 2024 by Gunner, SASS #1940 Quote
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted December 3, 2024 Posted December 3, 2024 44 minutes ago, Gunner, SASS #1940 said: Marlin did make a model 31, that had an exposed hammer, tubular fed, 5 round magazine, that WAS LEGAL for SASS, and in 20ga. Then SASS to my grand disappointment banned all pump actions shotgun on the period, that previously met their qualifications, except for the Win 97 and their clones. So they threw out, the Burgess, the Spencer and ALL Marlin pump action shotguns. So once upon a time, if you are of a certain age, it was legal and was shot. I know, because my BIL bought a 20ga and I shot it. I also owned a Marlin pump in Sweet 16, and used that in matches with all brass shotshells. Bahhh humbug! And do you know why they outlawed them...specifically? Phantom Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 I know, specifically, why they were banned. I didn’t agree with the ban then and I don’t agree with it now, but I grudgingly abide by the rules. I also reserve the right to openly disagree with the decision and to make my case when given the opportunity, as I have done in the past. I won’t go into the details or specifics now as I only recently did so in another thread in this forum. Anyone truly interested can look it up!! Carry on! 1 Quote
Tulsey, SASS#11236 Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 This topic brought up several old thoughts. I remember reading the Marlin statement about not firing their old pump guns in some gun magazine years ago, but was unable to locate it on an internet search today. After reading it years ago it was not comfortable to stand next one shooting one of the Marlins. Old time competitive shooting once gave me some 12 gauge brass cases he had used. They had been shortened over a period of time and he only shot black powder in them. He had filled the lowest portion with lead leaving a hole for the fire from the primer and giving the hull more weight for fast dropping out of the barrel. Years ago a shooter gave me a bunch of old 28 ga reloads in paper hulls. My 28 ga auto did not like them. I bought a couple of Little Skeeter 20 to 28 ga adapters and shot them up in an O/U and S/S without any problems. The 3/4 ounce shot at normal 28 ga velocity shot as well as 20 ga for me. I even used them in some monthly matches in the S/S. Of course they were something you didn't want to loose and I had only two of them. I always wondered if you had a bunch of adapters you could load them you could load the smaller gauge shells like 20 ga to use in a 12 ga shotgun. If you had six or eight you could do a stage, punch out the empty hull and put a live round in and be ready for the next stage. I even wondered about having some 28 ga adapters for 16 ga if good 16 ga hulls became difficult to find. Sorry to get off topic Quote
Kid Rich Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 On 10/5/2024 at 12:29 PM, Seminole Sam said: Well, I'm back from firing a shotgun for the first time since 1980. I enjoyed it a lot and learned some things. I cannot make a good Nitro card, at least for now. I have ones from Ballistic Products and I'll have to use those, My cardboard wads worked, but compress FAR too much. I planned on using 3 or 4 and as instead using like 20+ of them. Used all the ones I had made up on todays 15 test rounds. I have sheet cork coming in from Amazon and I'll use that after this. I may even try a discarded foam-core sign from work, but I do indeed need something thicker that won't compress - like the Fiber wad I'm trying to replace. 44 grains of black powder seems really weak to me. It did work and the patterns were even good, but after my 15 test rounds I fired a few commercial upland loads and they were WAY more powerful. I'm going to make some adjustments and go back to the range tomorrow with a different load. My loads were a joy to shoot - but may be too light to work for this. So you don't want to use plastic wads but you are considering using a discarded foam core sign. Is that plastic also? kR 1 1 Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 With regard to the Marlin pump, there are some very real safety concerns, but they can be addressed to the point where the guns are safe to shoot. I won't rehash all of that, others are far more familiar with the details, I'll leave it to the experts. Suffice to say that if I could find one that passes all the safety checks, I would feel okay about shooting one. (In fact, there is a very late model one for sale locally...) Should they be SASS Legal? I wish I could say yes, but there is so much bad press, it might be "easier" to just allow the ban to stay in place. With regard to other pumps... Winchester 93: It can't handle smokeless powder or shells longer than 2-1/2" safely. Just like a vintage 87. Many folks who have one either use short shells, or lengthen the chamber. In either case, they use black powder, making it perfectly safe. (I have fired mine with no problems) The same procedure(s) could be used to make 93's safe to use. Should they be SASS Legal? Yes. Burgess: I have never read of any safety issues with this gun. Should be be SASS Legal? Yes. Again, mine has been fired with no problems. Spencer: Well, I am pretty sure that they all have Damascus barrels, which brings up THAT whole debate, but I've heard of no other issues. Should they be SASS Legal? Well.... I dunno. Are Damascus barrel shotguns outlawed in general? If not, then legal. If yes, then not legal. IF legalized, it is up to the shooter to make sure the are safe to use. Just like ALL firearms in our game. IAC 93/97. A modern made 97 made to resemble a 93. Not legal only because it's "not a 97." It should be legal. If you allow these 4 models to be used, it also creates the possibility of modern makers making a new exposed hammer pump gun for use in our game. It would also open the door to someone like Uberti or Chiappa considering a replica of these interesting old designs, addressing any lingering safety concerns along the way. Lifting the no 20 gauge pump restriction would allow the creation of 97's in 20 gauge if they perceive a demand. None if it is likely to happen, but the possibilities are there. These are just my opinions. I am not asking for any rule changes, just stating what I think about the existing rules. 1 Quote
High Spade Mikey Wilson Posted December 4, 2024 Posted December 4, 2024 I shoot 3/4 oz shot in both 12 & 20 guage SxS. Never had a problem knocking down targets at the ranges we shoot shotgun targets. Quote
Three Gun Cole Posted December 5, 2024 Posted December 5, 2024 I believe the rule exists because there were a few 20 ga prototypes made and I heard there was a company modifying-converting Winchester 16 gauge 97s into 20 gauge. While they would be extremely rare. It sounded like they didn’t want that gun mixed into cowboy shooting. Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 7, 2024 Posted December 7, 2024 Well Now. The original Question(s) posed by the OP were answered in the first TWO replies. The rest of the thread amounts to TROLLING. Oh, and whining. Yes, and saving the planet from absolutely gobs of Plastic. Let us also not forget to turn the simple loading of Black Powder shotgun hulls into an exercise of complicated pain and torture. Lets go for THREE pages why don't we?? 1 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 8, 2024 Posted December 8, 2024 10 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Well Now. The original Question(s) posed by the OP were answered in the first TWO replies. The rest of the thread amounts to TROLLING. Oh, and whining. Yes, and saving the planet from absolutely gobs of Plastic. Let us also not forget to turn the simple loading of Black Powder shotgun hulls into an exercise of complicated pain and torture. Lets go for THREE pages why don't we?? 🤣 Are ya’ griping or complaining?? 🤣 1 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted December 8, 2024 Posted December 8, 2024 Hey Blackwater 😜 Neither!! Just pushing for 'nother page or two 🤪 2 Quote
Captain Clark Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) On 10/4/2024 at 10:00 AM, Seminole Sam said: Another one of the SASS rules I can't figure out why it exists. You can use 20 ga double barrels, single barrels, lever action shotguns. But minimum size for a pump gun is 16 ga. I found this while trying to determine the smallest amount of lead I could use in a shotgun load and still knock the target down. If 20 ga 7/8 ounce load will do it, my black powder 12 Ga with 90 grains of powder and 3/4 Oz of shot should be ok. Thats still more lead than the 320 grain bullet I use in my 45-70. I want to use as little lead as possible as that is by far the most expensive component, at least for me. If I seriously go full tilt on this hobby I'll get a shot dripper and start making it. I have not owned a 20 ga in about 30 years - but I'm curious why that rule is there. I see Buckaroo/ Buckarette laying knockdowns out flat with 410’s, yet People seem to underestimate and discount the amount of kinetic energy in even the mildest of featherweight shotgun ammunition in any gauge. 90 grains blackpowder loads are the stuff that legends are created from and the weak fantasize about! You can rest easy knowing that 35 gr of black subs with a 1/2oz of shot along with a hefty amount of sparkly glitter and feathers will also get the task accomplished while the peanut gallery gets a chuckle! Edited December 9, 2024 by Captain Clark Corrected spelling 2 1 Quote
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