No Horse Hair, SASS #77464 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I just cast my first bullets ever-but been reloading since the 70's. I'm using an old Lyman Mag 20 bottom pour furnace using lead that was left in it many years ago. I'm using a new Lyman 6 cavity mould for 44-40 bullets. I'm pretty well impressed with the bullets I'm getting, but I think there's room for improvement. The bullets have a few wrinkles at the nose and I think the lube grooves could be sharper. The color is very bright silver- like the Lone Ranger's! I can only get the temperature of the lead to around 600 degrees (taken with thermometer in the lead). Using a laser thermometer shows the walls of the pot at around 700. The pot has a thermostat that cycles off and on. Question is, shouldn't the lead temp be higher (800 degrees) to make a good bullet? Is my old Pot just not up to the task? And, I'm sizing these with a new RCBS sizer die that should be .427, but they are coming out at .426. I guess my caliper could be off by that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 These guys are the experts on bullet casting. You should try posting over there. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?256528-Wrinkled-bullets-after-an-hour-trying 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 A. Mechanical thermostats can drift out of calibration. B. If it is an electronic thermostat, the sensor can also drift or not be sensing correctly. C. I have seen calipers be off by .0025. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagebrush Burns, SASS # 14226 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 It may be necessary to cast a number of "culls" to get the mold up to a good working temperature. This will usually eliminate wrinkled bullet noses. Put the culls back in the pot and keep going. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dapper Dave Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I confess I have never used a thermometer when casting, been doing it a few years. I have the temp set about 700, and start casting with a mold I warmed up on a hot plate. If it's wrinkled or not filled out, the mold might be too cold and the problem usually rights itself in a few casts. One other might be not enough tin in the mix - do you know what the percentages in your alloy are? I agree whole heartedly about castboolits.gunloads.org, GREAT people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 (edited) 9 hours ago, No Horse Hair, SASS #77464 said: The bullets have a few wrinkles at the nose and I think the lube grooves could be sharper. The color is very bright silver- like the Lone Ranger's! I can only get the temperature of the lead to around 600 degrees (taken with thermometer in the lead). Using a laser thermometer shows the walls of the pot at around 700. The pot has a thermostat that cycles off and on. Question is, shouldn't the lead temp be higher (800 degrees) to make a good bullet? Is my old Pot just not up to the task? Yeap, the mold is not hot enough for the lead to flow into the sharpness areas. I keep my pot at about 725 to 750, depending on the mold I use. It is harder to get a cast mold hot enough.....easier to get the aluminum molds hot. Turn the heat up until the bullet's surface "crystalizes" then back the heat off a tad and let the mold cool a little until it goes away....check the mold temp with the laser, and that will be your casting temp. Edited September 24 by Savvy Jack 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackalope Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 When using a six-cavity mold, I like to cast at a fairly brisk pace to keep the mold hot. As mentioned above, it sounds as if you need a little more heat. And don't worry if the bullets drop looking a little frosty. As long as they are perfectly filled out, they'll shoot just fine. Good luck! Jackalope 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 As my lead pot warms, I place my molds on a hot plate to bring them to temperature. Once I am casting, I turn the hot plate off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 Measure with a micrometer, not calipers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 Comparatively speaking, lead is softer than most metals so you have to be very careful when measuring as it will have a bit more give to it, making for smaller measurements. I have a large 40lb casing pot so it is less sensitive to adding lead, and I usually keep it around 685 deg when using multi-cavity aluminum moulds. Hotter for smaller bullets, cooler for larger. I use a PID electronic temperature controller, so I can see variations in temp more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 (edited) A new mold set needs to be scrubbed REALLY well in hot soapy water to remove all cutting fluids from the cavities (and rest of block), or you have trouble with mold fillout. That is a VERY LARGE mold, and it really needs to be pre-heated before you start casting or it will never heat up. Then dry COMPLETELY for a day or so at room temperature or in the sun outdoors because you do not want a steam explosion when starting to cast. You need to get your mold blocks up to about 400 F before starting casting. I do that by using an old hot plate, set about 1/4 of full heat. You are fortunate to have a temp reading laser thermometer, and you can get real close to that without overheating and damaging your blocks. You are definitely casting too cool, if your alloy is at 600 F. At that temperature, you get wrinkles in the slugs, and rounded corners and incomplete fill out. That also indicates the alloy in the pot is a VERY hard alloy if it is melting at 600 F. A .44-40 bullet that you shoot for cowboy at about 800 or 900 FPS maximum velocity, does not need to be real hard. I would get twice as much soft lead (plumber supply house or a scrap yard will be reasonable local sources of soft lead) then mix your left over alloy with the soft lead until you can cast a bullet that you can scratch with the edge of your finger nail. That will be hard enough for cowboy shooting, and will seal the bore better. I too cast for cowboy bullets at about 700-725 F. Your pot needs to heat the alloy to that. If it cannot, it needs replaced or overhauled. I seriously would melt out that "unknown" alloy and start over with clean, known alloy that gets you fairly soft bullets - like what a fingernail will mark. Unless you don't care how great the bullets are or how accurate they shoot. If you are casting for modern Italian made or even Ruger firearms, most likely a 0.429" sized bullet will be just about right to fit the barrel well. You are sizing as if loading for original 1800's guns, which were cut in ranges from 0.424 to 0.427" groove diameter. Another tip for casting with a 6 cavity mold. Start by only filling two cavities until the bullets come out well filled and the sprue cuts almost with hand pressure. Then start one more cavity, casting 3 bullets. Repeat this process to step up to casting 6 cavities. Otherwise, you try to cut sprues when you have to pound on the sprue plate, and you damage the plate or even the blocks, and it's hard work too! Lyman publishes a GREAT manual that explains how to set up and cast. Also has tons of good loads. If you don't have it yet, get the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook Casting and sizing is a lot of work, but if you can find lead to cast at a good price (somewhere less than $1 a pound), then you will be well off. good luck, GJ Edited September 24 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 I typically cast at 710ºF, with a built in PID controller, my Lyman Mag 25 starts off great if I pre-heat my molds. I generally run 2 molds simultaneously. Once the first is filled it sits on the warming bench while the other is being filled, then switch molds and dump the one off the warming bench, refill and switch back. I find it hardest to get a six-gang mold to run all 6 holes well, so I generally only use the center 4 holes. Except for round balls, I use straight wheel weights unless I'm casting rifle rounds, like the .30-30, then I add in a little linotype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Horse Hair, SASS #77464 Posted September 25 Author Share Posted September 25 Thanks to all above for the info. Although the lead I'm using is making bullets I can scratch with my nail, I realize it is an unknown factor. After the comments posted I'm thinking maybe my old pot isn't getting hot enough. Even tho my Laser thermometer says the wall of the pot is at 700 , I still can't get the lead much above 500 (measured with thermometer in the lead) because the pot shuts off and on. I have been heating my mold on top of the pot and did check it once w/laser and it registered 200. But sounds like that isn't hot enough. I will check the mould temp after continuos casting to see where I'm at. I will also clean the mold carefully before the next session. And as far as the lead goes, I will use up the rest of what came in the pot as I practice! I came about this in a rather circular motion. I was never really interested in making my own bullets, but I did have a little experience casting babbit in the Oil Field to put ends on wire lines. I'm starting to get low on cowboy bullets, but I have 1500 40 caliber lead bullets for a semi-auto I don't shoot much. Sooo, i thinking about turning them into 44-40 bullets. I walk into my local gunshop and long time gun buddy whom I know has casted bullets for many years. I tell him , "I'm here to pick your brain about casting bullets." He looks at me and says, "Follow me, I been doing some cleaning in the back of the shop". He sends me into a burrow and says "There's an electric pot in there, pull it out". I do and it is about 1/3 full of the last lead from several presidents ago. I ask about a sizer, he digs and come up with an old Lyman. I know it's old because when I get home I look it up in a 1965 Gun Bible and mine is older than the "old Model" in the book (pre O ring, it has a round brass cylinder). And guess what - it's still full of bullet lube, which has turned to bullet plastic! I love a challenge. Hair dryer heat loosened the old lube and I cleaned it up and it's back in service. Anyway , for $200 I walked out with an entertaining new hobby! A Midway order for $200 and I'm set up with the rest of the needed tools. And I have cast and sized about 200 bullets, which I'll put downrange this weekend to see if they can hit big targets at close range. At this point , that's all I'm asking for! Who knows, I shoot some Open Top Conversions in 44, maybe I'll brew up some of those! And , I been eyeballin' those new RCBS lead furnaces also, but only if I figure out that's my problem! Thanks again to all you guys for chimin' in with ideas and suggestions. Oh and by the way, Springfield Slim, I still have some of your big lube bullets. But I just couldn't bring myself to use them for smokeless. I'm holding them till I get the Black Fever again. And if I buy another mould it will be the one you suggested in my previous post. What kind of lube did you use for them? Garrison Joe, thanks for the time you took. And I think I have that Lyman edition on my shelf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uriah, SASS # 53822 Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 (edited) The melt point is 618° for 25:1 or 30:1 lead tin. I figured that the lead will hold the same temperature in transition, same as water. I don’t know if that’s so, that’s all I have got. I placed the thermometer when it’s half liquid and half hard. If thermometer doesn’t read 618° I change it with a 5/8 inch wrench, just under the face of the thermometer. Single cavity, hand dipping 365gr 750-760° with garage temp at 60° 550gr 780°, garage temp 70° I am going to experiment with lower temperatures in the bottom pure Lee elect pot, on the six cavity mold. 740-745° is too hot. Mold oven. Fits 1-4 cavity molds, but, not six. Uriah Edited October 4 by Uriah, SASS # 53822 25:1 lead tin melting 618°, I adjusted all the numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 (edited) Read this old thread. Hatch makes a good PID controller that works exceptionally well. I built my own. It cost me in materials alone for what Hatch sells his unit for. The Cast Boolits forum is a treasure trove of knowledge. I also highly recommend that you download and read From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate Another good resource is The Art & Science of Bullet Casting Edited September 25 by Sedalia Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 19 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: Comparatively speaking, lead is softer than most metals so you have to be very careful when measuring as it will have a bit more give to it, making for smaller measurements. I have a large 40lb casing pot so it is less sensitive to adding lead, and I usually keep it around 685 deg when using multi-cavity aluminum moulds. Hotter for smaller bullets, cooler for larger. I use a PID electronic temperature controller, so I can see variations in temp more easily. Springfield Slim cast some bullets for me several years ago using a custom mold I sent to him made by Accurate Molds. It was his precision cast bullets that helped me get 40 consecutive shots inside less than 4" groups at 100 yards for the 44-40 and Winchester 73'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 It should be pointed out that the alloy and casting technique used will have an impact on diameter of the bullet that a given mould drops. Every alloy will drop a bullet of a different diameter. You will also get variations depending on if you use a ladel vs bottom pour. And a bottom pour will give you different diameters depending on if the pot is full or 1/2 full. That said, all these variations are insignificant for the bullets we use for CAS. However when you are talking shooting long range the variations can have a significant impact. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted September 26 Share Posted September 26 I cast hot, pre heat molds on a hot plate. Large caliber six cavity molds I pour hot and fast. I never meet a frosty boolet I didn't like JefroRelax-Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORNERY OAF Posted September 26 Share Posted September 26 At the ranges sass shoots, frosty bullets clang just as well as pretty ones! When it comes to the larger long range rifles, a little more finesse rules the molds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tall John Posted September 29 Share Posted September 29 On 9/25/2024 at 6:45 AM, Sedalia Dave said: Read this old thread. Hatch makes a good PID controller that works exceptionally well. I built my own. It cost me in materials alone for what Hatch sells his unit for. The Cast Boolits forum is a treasure trove of knowledge. I also highly recommend that you download and read From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners by Glen E. Fryxell and Robert L. Applegate Another good resource is The Art & Science of Bullet Casting For anyone looking for one of Hatch’s PIDcontrollers, go to this link on CASTBOOLITS FORUMN https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?471836-TYPE-2-waiting-list 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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