Safety?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

Deleted because I noticed this shoot was last month and did not want to get into a discussion with the shooter or his friends.  Basically it was a YouTube video with terrible gun handling and at the end he sweeps the loading table with his shotgun.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Was he called on it? 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Nope.  I went into the video and deleted the guy's face and made a still.  It was worse than the photo.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Well...at least the other shooters don't give a damn.

 

Oy...

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...at least the other shooters don't give a damn.

 

Oy...

Maybe the next up Pard in the black hat was getting ready to call him!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Maybe the next up Pard in the black hat was getting ready to call him!

Call him...what...to have another beer?

 

Phantom

[Eyesa Horg]

9 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Call him...what...to have another beer?

 

Phantom

 No, call him out! As in hollywierd, "I'm callin you out Dillon". 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Part of the problem is lack of making the call...which is often because...

 

THE TO ISN'T WATCHING THE SHOOTER / GUN!!!! 

 

He/she think they're another spotter so they're watching the TARGETS!!!!!

 

Oh how I hate TO's that do this...

 

Phantom

[Jim Brown]

Spend time watching YouTube- I would estimate that one out of every 10 has some sort of safety error.

Most deal with cross-draw and/or holstering as you turn and move to next position.  

There is also pumping the guns when shooting Gunfighter- Pulling pistol back where opposite hand is within 170.

At least one Cross draw that was way closer to 45 degrees vice 20

 

However, I have not seen one this bad until now.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Nope.  I went into the video and deleted the guy's face and made a still.  It was worse than the photo.

 

Never seen a firing line in line with the loading table. Usually the LT & ULT are back a bit. 

[Totes Magoats]

9 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Never seen a firing line in line with the loading table. Usually the LT & ULT are back a bit. 

 

Almost all of our LT/ULT are in line with the firing line.  

 

That's a pretty big 180 violation.  Shocking it wasn't called. 

 

Totes

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

21 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Never seen a firing line in line with the loading table. Usually the LT & ULT are back a bit. 

So that would mean that the shooters on the line are in front of the loaded guns on the loading table...

 

If the LT is not perpendicular to the firing line, then all tables should be even with each other.

 

Phantom

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Totes Magoats said:

 

Almost all of our LT/ULT are in line with the firing line.  

 

That's a pretty big 180 violation.  Shocking it wasn't called. 

 

 

Not just a 170 violation...he SWEPT everyone at the LT = SDQ

If he would have loaded two for the last makeup shot instead of just the one round, it would have been a MDQ.

After he fired the last shot, the TO immediately looked at the timer & turned to poll the spotters...which is why he didn't observe the safety violation. 
The shooters at the LT should have notified the TO.

 

 

[wyliefoxEsquire]

20 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Not just a 170 violation...he SWEPT everyone at the LT = SDQ

If he would have loaded two for the last makeup shot instead of just the one round, it would have been a MDQ.

After he fired the last shot, the TO immediately looked at the timer & turned to poll the spotters...which is why he didn't observe the safety violation. 
The shooters at the LT should have notified the TO.

 

What PWB just stated is a very common occurrence.  Once that last shot is fired many TOs ignore all the safety issues that MUST be monitored.  This is a big issue.  

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So that would mean that the shooters on the line are in front of the loaded guns on the loading table...

 

If the LT is not perpendicular to the firing line, then all tables should be even with each other.

 

Phantom

Around here our tables face the side berm, not down range. The shooter is about 8 feet in front and shooting 120+ degrees to the loading area. So they'd have to almost have to turn around to sweep a loading/unloading table.

 

I see now, relooking at the pic above, they are in an open field with no side berms. So that setup would be the only way.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

43 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

 

What PWB just stated is a very common occurrence.  Once that last shot is fired many TOs ignore all the safety issues that MUST be monitored.  This is a big issue.  

 

REF: RO1 p.25
......  RO2 pp.7-8

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Had something similar happen at a match once where the loading table was facing downrange.   Shooter's rifle slipped off the front of the table with barrel pointing downrange, muzzle hit the dirt, but the shooter grabbed the butt stock to keep it from landing in the dirt.  Problem was that the TO and shooter were engaged in the stage.  When brought to the TO's attention the call was "..he's a good shooter...".  That was the last time I shot at that club.

[Matthew Duncan]

40 minutes ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

….   Shooter's rifle slipped off the front of the table with barrel pointing downrange, muzzle hit the dirt, but the shooter grabbed the butt stock to keep it from landing in the dirt.  Problem was that the TO and shooter were engaged in the stage.  When brought to the TO's attention the call was "..he's a good shooter...".  That was the last time I shot at that club.

Loading table mat was bigger than the table.   As I went to holster my loaded pistol I missed my holster and the pistol hit the ground.  Shooter beside me said it was a “prop failure”.  I said “no I drop the gun”.  Shooter beside me shrugged his shoulders and went back to loading his.  I unload my guns, carried them to my cart and told the Scorer to mark me as Matched DQed.

 

Tex in your example what did the shooter whose rifle slipped report to the TO or Scorer? 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

22 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Tex in your example what did the shooter whose rifle slipped report to the TO or Scorer?

Nothing.  The TO was defending him and let him shoot.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

3 hours ago, Jim Brown said:

There is also pumping the guns when shooting Gunfighter- Pulling pistol back where opposite hand is within 170.

 

Where is this rule?

[Idaho Gunslinger]

21 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Where is this rule?

Page 17 of the SJB talks about the 170* rule.

It states this as part of the rule: "A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time."

Never once does it say anything about sweeping yourself (not that I found anyway) so long as your firearms are pointed downrange. 

 

The glossary defines the 170 Rule as follows:

"170º Safety Rule - means the muzzle of the firearm must always be pointed down range +/- 85 degrees in any direction."

If your muzzle is pointed down range and something happens to get in front of your muzzle (such as your own hand) I would argue that you still didn't break the 170 rule. 

Though maybe it could be argued under some general safety rule as it is still not a generally safe act to potentially be sweeping yourself. I'll leave that call up to someone with a lot more experience than me. 

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

What does he think he is, a skeet shooter? 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Loading table mat was bigger than the table.   As I went to holster my loaded pistol I missed my holster and the pistol hit the ground.  Shooter beside me said it was a “prop failure”.  I said “no I drop the gun”.  Shooter beside me shrugged his shoulders and went back to loading his.  I unload my guns, carried them to my cart and told the Scorer to mark me as Matched DQed.

 

Tex in your example what did the shooter whose rifle slipped report to the TO or Scorer? 

Good on you Matt, I've SDQ'd myself twice, but thankfully haven't done an MDQ offense yet! Sure hope it stays that way!

[Jim Brown]

39 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

Where is this rule?

Gunfighter Rules:

The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other)

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

6 minutes ago, Jim Brown said:

Gunfighter Rules:

The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other)

SASS rules say you can't 'sweep' yourownself.  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

14 minutes ago, Jim Brown said:

Gunfighter Rules:

The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other)

 

6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

SASS rules say you can't 'sweep' yourownself.  

 

That falls under the SDQ for "Unsafe firearm handling." (SHB p.22) if a cocked revolver sweeps the shooter's other hand.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

33 minutes ago, Jim Brown said:

Gunfighter Rules:

The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other)

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

 

That falls under the SDQ for "Unsafe firearm handling." (SHB p.22) if a cocked revolver sweeps the shooter's other hand.

Yes, it does. TY

I had forgotten about that part. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Key words there being cocked revolver sweeping shooter's other hand. Says nothing about the 170.

 

The same would also hold true for a duelist that shoots one dry and then holds the dry pistol wherever as they're shooting their second pistol. Doesn't matter that the one they're shooting is just within the 170 of the one that was shot dry. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Around here our tables face the side berm, not down range. The shooter is about 8 feet in front and shooting 120+ degrees to the loading area. So they'd have to almost have to turn around to sweep a loading/unloading table.

 

I see now, relooking at the pic above, they are in an open field with no side berms. So that setup would be the only way.

I have shot all over and a lot of the ranges I have shot at do not have berms between stages and instead have a common firing line.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

In keeping with the OP "SAFETY"

 

There is a specific direction in the handbooks for "Gunfighters."

 

"revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g. One revolver behind the other).  Unfortunately most clubs don't pay any attention to this "rule."  In fact, the last time this issue was brought up on the wire, a self proclaimed "Pumping Fool" seemed to kill all further discussion.

 

The rule has migrated around.  First in the Handbook.  Then it moved to RO 1 or RO 2.  May now be back in the Handbook.  Be nice if Gunfighters would pay attention to it.  And if penalties would be assessed when they do not. 

[watab kid]

6 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Part of the problem is lack of making the call...which is often because...

 

THE TO ISN'T WATCHING THE SHOOTER / GUN!!!! 

 

He/she think they're another spotter so they're watching the TARGETS!!!!!

 

Oh how I hate TO's that do this...

 

Phantom

ill second this , witnessed recently the TO didnt even look at the spotters every time before calling the misses , 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

41 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

In keeping with the OP "SAFETY"

 

There is a specific direction in the handbooks for "Gunfighters."

 

"revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g. One revolver behind the other).  Unfortunately most clubs don't pay any attention to this "rule."  In fact, the last time this issue was brought up on the wire, a self proclaimed "Pumping Fool" seemed to kill all further discussion.

 

The rule has migrated around.  First in the Handbook.  Then it moved to RO 1 or RO 2.  May now be back in the Handbook.  Be nice if Gunfighters would pay attention to it.  And if penalties would be assessed when they do not. 

I agree with everything you say.

 

But...

 

Believe it or not, one can call infractions and the majority of the population at the match will give a stoopid response like "don't be a Hardass". So...then you keep on making these calls...as you should...and then nobody at the club really wants to shoot with you.

 

Try calling out the Shotgun Bra violation...they're everywhere! Want to see bad reactions...oy!

 

It kinda comes down to an I Dont Give A Sh** anymore. So long as there isn't a Safety issue...let them learn their lesson at a big match (assuming anyone says anything there!).

 

Phantom

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

A lot of that is a result of lax enforcement at monthly matches (speaking from years of experience)...or no one other than a photo/videographer being in a position to observe a violation.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

A lot of that is a result of lax enforcement at monthly matches (speaking from years of experience)...or no one other than a photo/videographer being in a position to observe a violation.

I was at a Texas State match...had guys wearing their Shotgun Bra's waaaaaay over the legal position. Went to the MD to let him handle it. Was like pulling teeth to get him to act on it. Geeze...it's a fricken SASS State Championship!!!!

 

Had a Black Pin state during an ROII class that I was observing, that sometimes you gotta let things slide cuz "you're not there to be a hardass". Someone needs to tell him that enforcing the rules can be done without being a hardass...again...oy!

 

Phantom