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Hypothetically speaking


Alpo

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You are a person of interest in a murder. The victim was shot with a 38. You have one, or more, 38s. The cops want to take your 38s and run ballistics.

 

While interviewing you they ask if you have any other guns. You say that you do - you got a 22 and you got a 45 and you got a 30/06 and you got a 12 gauge shotgun. And they ask you if you would have any trouble with them running ballistics on these other guns.

 

Would you let them take ballistics of your 22 and your 45 and your deer rifle?

 

Assuming that you had any say in the matter. That they didn't just say, "we're going to run ballistics on all your guns. You don't like it - too bad, so sad".

 

 

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1 hour ago, Alpo said:

You are a person of interest in a murder. The victim was shot with a 38. You have one, or more, 38s.

 

A 38?  I suspect that there wasn't much left of the victim!  :P 

 

(Lordy, but it feels good to Alpo Alpo! :lol:)

 

But, to the actual meaning of your question -What BGavin said.  

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1. “I intend to cooperate fully, but I will need to speak with my attorney first. 
2. “No, you may not take any of my firearms until after I have spoken with my attorney and he/she has told me how to respond.”

3. Call the USCCA Help Line.

4. Sit down and be quiet until attorney calls or shows. 

This is exactly what I would do, with or without a search warrant. 

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I wasn't asking for legal advice.

 

The cops say that their forensic people have found carpet fibers on the body, and they have identified the fibers is coming from the trunk of a 1972 Ford mustang. You just happen to have a 1972 Ford mustang, so they are going to check the trunk.

 

And then they tell you that they wish to also check the trunk of your 1997 Chevy Impala and your 2012 Isuzu.

 

WHY?????

 

What does the Chevy and the Isuzu have to do with a Ford mustang? The guy was shot with a 38. Why did they want to take ballistics of my 22?

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Well, me being a wisea$$ like I am, I would tell them that if I were gonna shoot someone......... I wouldn't use

my lowly .38, I would use my shotgun and blast em.

And seeing that I ain't a people killer, I ain't done it.

 

Now Mr. interrogator....... ya got any cold Pepsi I can drink?

 

 

..........Widder

 

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7 hours ago, Pat Riot said:

1. “I intend to cooperate fully, but I will need to speak with my attorney first. 
2. “No, you may not take any of my firearms until after I have spoken with my attorney and he/she has told me how to respond.”

3. Call the USCCA Help Line.

4. Sit down and be quiet until attorney calls or shows. 

This is exactly what I would do, with or without a search warrant. 

If the officer has a search warrant you will comply or you will wait for your attorney in a jail cell charged with obstruction of justice. Your attorney has nothing to say about it. 
Remember if you don’t talk to the police your side of the story never gets told 

Edited by Henry T Harrison
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14 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

If the officer has a search warrant you will comply or you will wait for your attorney in a jail cell charged with obstruction of justice. Your attorney has nothing to say about it. 
Remember if you don’t talk to the police your side of the story never gets told 

Regardless, I will not comply until I talk to an attorney if the scenario is what @Alpoposted. They don’t need my side of the story in that scenario until my attorney talks me to give it to them. 

You forget that I spent quite a few years in California. I have seen people get railroaded for simply doing a good deed.
I won’t give the police or an ADA on a mission any info that can backfire on me. This is the USA, not some other country that acts as you’re guilty until proven innocent. 

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Odds are if you have the matching car for the trunk fibers, are known to have a gun in the right caliber, and anything at all ties you to a shot individual, the police will not show up to ask politely, they will show up with a search warrant at first contact. Or maybe they did talk to you earlier and you already elected to lawyer up (you should, even though there may be some "coercion" "encouragement" to speak without representation).

 

According to TV shows, police are to terminate discussion immediately if you lawyer up... But that is TV. I'll wait for a lawyer to confirm. How many times must one repeat "I want a lawyer"? Can officers explain possible "ramifications" if one does not communicate? Is there a difference if one is or is not arrested at the moment? Must police arrest at a certain point or can they delay? If not arrested, is there a legal "detainment"? I do not know the answers, but if I am thinking I might get charged, I'm going to lawyer up.

 

But if police show up with a warrant for your car trunk and your .38 caliber guns, your options will be to open the garage or let them tear the door off, let them in your house or let them break the door down, provide your car key or the them pry the trunk open, open your safe or let the police grind it open. The search will be executed.

 

All the rest, such as they take all firearms of any caliber or wish to question you... That if for your lawyer to handle. Anything not within the warrant (such as unrelated calibers) will be managed later.

 

On edit: No warrant, no I am not providing access to anything. I also am quite sure I am not the droid they are looking for. If asked for my guns, I would ask to see the search warrant. If they have a warrant, they have already convinced a judge they have probable cause, so shut up. And just to reinforce this thinking, if someone rattle the door on a public stall or outhouse, I try to respond with "come back with a warrant." Makes people laugh.

 

That all said (pre and post edit), I do cooperate with LE but have never had a request such as examination of car trunk fibers or firearms of a certain caliber. If I saw something or heard something, I will share it. I have never had a situation where it seemed I was being looked at as a suspect, only a citizen unrelated to any specific event other than as a possible witness.

Edited by John Kloehr
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20 hours ago, Alpo said:

Would you let them take ballistics of your 22 and your 45 and your deer rifle?

 

Not unless they had a warrant.

 

10 hours ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Remember if you don’t talk to the police your side of the story never gets told 

If you DO talk to the police, your side of the story might still never get told, unless you have a witness with YOUR interests in mind.

 

One of the things I've taken away with talks with a couple of lawyer friends -- clear and specific statements are important:

 

LEO: "Do you mind if we take your .45 and ..22 for ballistics testing?' Answer: 'I'd prefer you didn't.' Instead: 'I do not give my consent to testing my .45 and .22.'

 

I've been 10-8 as a reserve deputy, I've got family who are LEOs, I have friends who are LEOs. Even so, if it's someone I don't know, I'm not willing to stake my liberty on being able to tell the difference between an investigator who wants to solve cases, and one who's  just looking to close them. Show me a warrant, talk to my attorney.

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12 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

If you DO talk to the police, your side of the story might still never get told, unless you have a witness with YOUR interests in mind.

 

Or twisted out of the intended meaning and used against you because under the stress of being questioned while "detained" (I've never quite understood the fine line between arrested and detained, as far as I'm concerned if a cop is telling you you can't leave you have been arrested "A detention occurs when a police officer has reasonable suspicion to believe that someone has committed or is about to commit a crime. It is short-term, lasting long enough for the officer to investigate and determine the next steps. An arrest happens when an officer has probable cause to believe that a person was or is about to be involved in criminal activity." Effectively the same thing to the person being "detained.")  
Of course, no cop EVER does anything wrong in these cases, and refusing to answer is NEVER called "obstructing."

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Buy some time an distract them by offering them..

 

Snip-it_1700835203185.jpg.e9cca528a56fe53890d261149cc649a4.jpg

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2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Or twisted out of the intended meaning and used against you because under the stress of being questioned while "detained" (I've never quite understood the fine line between arrested and detained, as far as I'm concerned if a cop is telling you you can't leave you have been arrested "A detention occurs when a police officer has reasonable suspicion to believe that someone has committed or is about to commit a crime. It is short-term, lasting long enough for the officer to investigate and determine the next steps. An arrest happens when an officer has probable cause to believe that a person was or is about to be involved in criminal activity." Effectively the same thing to the person being "detained.")  
Of course, no cop EVER does anything wrong in these cases, and refusing to answer is NEVER called "obstructing."

Refusing to answer is not obstructing justice but obstructing the serving of a search warrant is

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1 hour ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Refusing to answer is not obstructing justice but obstructing the serving of a search warrant is

 

I didn't say anything about obstructing the serving of a warrant.  This is exactly the type of escalation by LEOs that I was thinking of.  "We have a warrant!"  "May I read it?"  "OK, you're under arrest for obstructing!"  

 

But, of course, that kind of thing NEVER happens.

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5 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I didn't say anything about obstructing the serving of a warrant.  This is exactly the type of escalation by LEOs that I was thinking of.  "We have a warrant!"  "May I read it?"  "OK, you're under arrest for obstructing!"  

 

But, of course, that kind of thing NEVER happens.

The officers will serve you a copy of the warrant which you can read while the search is underway. A warrant return  must be filed out and returned to the issuing authority within a certain time period, if the case goes to court than will be the time for your attorney to challenge the warrant. Stop watching television and stop pretending to be the expert you’re not 

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I don't have a dog in this event, but I might suggest being a LEO in PA is a might different than being a LEO here in the PRK.

What folks fail to understand:  when you are detained or served a warrant, that is the cop's time and not yours.
Your obligation is being polite and not running your mouth.

Your time comes later in court.
If the cop is there at all, he has a reason.
Even here in the PRK, I've never seen a cruiser drive down the street then pick a random house to bust.

 

My neighbor was served, searched and confiscated after his ex-wife swore out a phony "I'm Afraid of Him" complaint.
The LEOs took ALL his weapons, and ALL his ammo.
It took him months of lawyers and court appearances to get his guns back.
ALL of his ammo was "gone"...
 

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There are two parts to a search warrant.  The order and the affidavit.  The order is where the judge allows Law Enforcement to search a specific area or thing for specific things.  That is called the scope of the search.  They can't look inside a pill bottle for a butcher knife.  It wouldn't fit.  The affidavit is where the officer gave sworn testimony as to the facts of the case describing the probable cause and the need for the search warrant.  There are lots of things required in the affidavit, which takes several days to explain.  

 

The investigating officer might want to test the .22 and .45 caliber firearms because if you were involved in one shooting incident involving the .38, then you might be involved in something else.   Many crime labs can search ballistics in a computer database and clear up unsolved crimes.   He obviously couldn't get a search warrant on  speculation or suspicion, but grabbing at straws sometimes pays off.  

 

 

Edited by Badlands Bob #61228
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1 hour ago, Henry T Harrison said:

if the case goes to court than will be the time for your attorney to challenge the warrant

Kinda sounds like either way your house gets trashed whether you're guilty of anything or not, not to mention you'll likely never see your guns again or if you do, they won't be in the condition you left. I've been in evidence lockers, hundreds and hundreds of guns just crammed in barrels and shopping carts, stacked in the floor etc. A nice tag in each!

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3 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

The investigating officer might want to test the .22 and .45 caliber firearms because if you were involved in one shooting incident involving the .38, then you might be involved in something else.   Many crime labs can search ballistics in a computer database and clear up unsolved crimes.   He obviously couldn't get a search warrant on  speculation or suspicion, but grabbing at straws sometimes pays off.  

 

In other words, a fishing expedition.  Like saying that because you got pulled over for speeding you might be involved in a drive by shooting.  Extreme example, I know, but serves as an illustration.  

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On 11/24/2023 at 8:54 PM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

In other words, a fishing expedition.  Like saying that because you got pulled over for speeding you might be involved in a drive by shooting.  Extreme example, I know, but serves as an illustration.  

Most traffic stops are fishing expeditions.  The traffic offence is only the reason for the stop.  The officer is looking for wanted persons, stolen cars, illegal drugs, DUI, etc.  It use to take me months to go through a ticket book.   I'm ancient.  Do they still use ticket books or all they all computer generated tickets and printed out?

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1 hour ago, bgavin said:

One of my lodge brothers is a LEO.
He hates traffic stops... 7 pages of paper work, including his observations about their "sexual orientation"

Yea, I retired about the time all that BLM and defund the police stuff started up.  During my my last 6 months on the job, I found it really hard walking around with my teeth clamped down on my tongue.

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