Subdeacon Joe Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 On a Mojave Desert FB group a guy posted a couple of photos. All he knows about it is that his dad found it "south of Death Valley," maybe closer to Ridgecrest. Anyone have any idea what it might be? That cruciform guard really has me stumped. I keep thinking that it's the head of some sort of pole arm.
Rip Snorter Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 In Anthropology, when they can't clearly identify the purpose of something it is a Ritual Object. Looks like one to mer!
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 Looks like just a small knife to me.
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 16, 2023 Author Posted October 16, 2023 9 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: Looks like just a small knife to me. But from where and when? A very interesting blade shape, Oriental or Middle Eastern is my guess, and the sort of double hand guard is very odd.
Rye Miles #13621 Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 16 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: But from where and when? A very interesting blade shape, Oriental or Middle Eastern is my guess, and the sort of double hand guard is very odd. Yes that double hand guard is very odd, Oriental or Middle Eastern is a good guess.
Red Gauntlet , SASS 60619 Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 I'd say it's a ball point pen, about the size of a small scimitar.
Presidio Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 Thinking some kind of spear head with an impaler stop. Course, I've watched way too many vampire movies already this month. If not that...perhaps some weird piece of farming tool?
Texas Joker Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 It may be a guandao blade. could be. Lots of Chinese in california
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 16, 2023 Author Posted October 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, Texas Joker said: It may be a guandao blade. could be. Lots of Chinese in california Thanks. A term gives me a place to start.
Texas Joker Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 Just now, Subdeacon Joe said: Thanks. A term gives me a place to start. Chinese pole arm similar to a spear or glaive. Koreans call it a chang
Rip Snorter Posted October 16, 2023 Posted October 16, 2023 Guandao, Naginata, Chang, Pike, etc. they were large, long blades, sort of a sword on a stick. This is a small thing, you could probably even carry it in Kalifornia.
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 16, 2023 Author Posted October 16, 2023 1 minute ago, Texas Joker said: Chinese pole arm similar to a spear or glaive. Koreans call it a chang Japanese called it a naginata. Sort of a sword on a stick. The blade portion is a bit short for that, but it's in the realm.
Texas Joker Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 Maybe the thinner parts rusted off. It's a wag
Pat Riot Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 Maybe the cross piece on a Conquistador’s lance.
Rip Snorter Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 My initial thought as well, but the scale is wrong, and I couldn't find anything remotely close.
watab kid Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 its a really cool looking relec , hope one og the leads above get you to an answer , please tell us what you find out ,
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 17, 2023 Author Posted October 17, 2023 20 minutes ago, watab kid said: its a really cool looking relec , hope one og the leads above get you to an answer , please tell us what you find out , I'm just passing it on to the guy who posted in FB. I'll keep checking there to see if he comes up with a definitive answer. I'm inclined, since it sort of matches my original impression, to go with the Chinese pole arm theory.
Pat Riot Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 If that is from the time of the Spaniards marching all over California looking for gold…uh, I mean, helping Priests bring the work of God to the heathens, that metal artifact would have been much larger. Probably at least twice as big.
Three Foot Johnson Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 Message Doug Marcaida (Forged in Fire) on Facebook with a picture of it and see if he answers back. https://www.facebook.com/kuyaDougMarcaida
watab kid Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: I'm just passing it on to the guy who posted in FB. I'll keep checking there to see if he comes up with a definitive answer. I'm inclined, since it sort of matches my original impression, to go with the Chinese pole arm theory. it does seem most likely at this juncture , but ive never seen that guard design before on anything else nor anything similar , is it made of iron ?
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 17, 2023 Author Posted October 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, watab kid said: it does seem most likely at this juncture , but ive never seen that guard design before on anything else nor anything similar , is it made of iron ? He didn't say. From the photos I would say it is iron rather than steel. I agree, the guard is passing strange. Almost like the guard on the blade side is meant to bind an opponents blade.
Texas Joker Posted October 17, 2023 Posted October 17, 2023 Shaped guards and rings are to make it harder to grab and hold the blade or to entrap
watab kid Posted October 18, 2023 Posted October 18, 2023 On 10/16/2023 at 11:21 PM, Subdeacon Joe said: He didn't say. From the photos I would say it is iron rather than steel. I agree, the guard is passing strange. Almost like the guard on the blade side is meant to bind an opponents blade. do keep us posted on what you might find out , i think its fascinating and i have no other ideas where to research at this time ,
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 22, 2023 Author Posted October 22, 2023 I asked for any updates: "not as yet. Lots of speculation as to *what* it is. The desert area where found being such a remote, inhospitable place, how it got there is equally mysterious. It very well might take the resources and knowledgeable connections of university research dept. or a museum to offer answers. I'm inclined to let it go that direction over being a garage sale item when I die."
Chantry Posted October 22, 2023 Posted October 22, 2023 53 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: I asked for any updates: "not as yet. Lots of speculation as to *what* it is. The desert area where found being such a remote, inhospitable place, how it got there is equally mysterious. It very well might take the resources and knowledgeable connections of university research dept. or a museum to offer answers. I'm inclined to let it go that direction over being a garage sale item when I die." Given the length is probably between 8"-10" it's too small to be the metal part of a spear or pole arm and there is no hole in the middle for it to be a cross piece of a pole arm. My guess it is a knife,. It could very well be a one off design, which would make identifying it very difficult. Or it could possibly have ceremonial or religious significance. If they could determine the approximate age of the item, that might narrow down what it could be. Contacting the https://www.worcesterart.org/collection/higgins-collection/ might help. IIRC they have the second largest collection of arms and armor in the US, with only the NY Metropolitan Art museum having a larger collection. I suspect the Higgins Collection is more varied than the NY Met
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 22, 2023 Author Posted October 22, 2023 9 minutes ago, Chantry said: Given the length is probably between 8"-10" it's too small to be the metal part of a spear or pole arm and there is no hole in the middle for it to be a cross piece of a pole arm. My guess it is a knife,. It could very well be a one off design, which would make identifying it very difficult. Or it could possibly have ceremonial or religious significance. If they could determine the approximate age of the item, that might narrow down what it could be. Contacting the https://www.worcesterart.org/collection/higgins-collection/ might help. IIRC they have the second largest collection of arms and armor in the US, with only the NY Metropolitan Art museum having a larger collection. I suspect the Higgins Collection is more varied than the NY Met Thanks, I'll pass this along. He offered to post more photos after I mentioned that I took the liberty of posting the photos and the little information he had on a CAS forum.
Subdeacon Joe Posted October 22, 2023 Author Posted October 22, 2023 The guy sent more photos to me: Looking at how the "guard" fits the hand, it doesn't seem to be meant as a knife.
Sawhorse Kid Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 Item looks like it is meant be mounted on a pole of some kind. On 10/16/2023 at 6:04 PM, Pat Riot said: Maybe the cross piece on a Conquistador’s lance.
Pat Riot Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Sawhorse Kid said: Item looks like it is meant be mounted on a pole of some kind. I am wondering if those metal “tabs” aren’t meant to be hammered (bent) into place around a shaft and an upper lance like extension and then anchored by wrapping the tabs and the shaft with leather or gut material.
Chantry Posted October 23, 2023 Posted October 23, 2023 Hmm, maybe we've been looking at it wrong? After reading Pat's comment I rotated the picture. If we accept that whoever made it lacked the skills or tools to form a hole for the handle to go through, then maybe this is some form of weapon related to a tomahawk? On edit: I certainly don't claim be an expert on American Indian, Aztec or Inca weapons, but nothing I've read even hinted at pole arms being used by the American Indian, Aztec or Inca warriors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_weaponry
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