BP Shotgun Loads / Weight or Volume

[Wild Bill Jake]

How is everyone priming brass shells that use large pistol primers instead of 209 primers? 

[Griff]

32 minutes ago, Wild Bill Jake said:

How is everyone priming brass shells that use large pistol primers instead of 209 primers? 

RCBS 12 ga. shell holder

[Slapshot]

Set the brass hull down on the large primer, use a cut off barrel counter sunk on one end to put in the brass hull , tap down with hammer till seated.

[Frontier Lone Rider]

I scoop my black powder with a Lee Dipper, then weigh the powder to ensure I am still in the ballpark.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Frontier Lone Rider

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Wild Bill Jake

 

Just pressing the hull down on a primer will result in some fail to fire as the primer doesn't seat fully.  I found that the hard way.  I now have the RCBS die and shell holder in an inexpensive single stage press for de-priming and priming.  Using a proper press and shell holder eliminated fail to fire completely.

[Wild Bill Jake]

Will the holder work on large pistol primers?  Not 209?

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Wild Bill Jake said:

Will the holder work on large pistol primers?  Not 209?

If you're asking about the one I pictured, yes.  All I use, I only have Magtech brass 12 ga hulls.

[Buckshot Sheridan]

That holder and a set of CH4D dies works like a champ. Only time I haven’t run all brass shells with BP was the time I took my short match gun to shoot sporting clays, and that’s just because of the shot size limit. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Buckshot Sheridan said:

That holder and a set of CH4D dies works like a champ. Only time I haven’t run all brass shells with BP was the time I took my short match gun to shoot sporting clays, and that’s just because of the shot size limit. 

I’ve no experience with brass hulls. What limits do they have regarding shot size?

[Buckshot Sheridan]

3 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

I’ve no experience with brass hulls. What limits do they have regarding shot size?

The restriction isn’t due to the brass shells. I load 4 or 5 shot in them for SASS. The sporting clays range limits to no larger than 7.5 shot. When I was buying shot previously all I could find was 4, 5 or 9. I bought 3 bags of each 4 and 5, and it works so I have no reason to change for those. 

[Slapshot]

On 10/25/2023 at 9:02 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Wild Bill Jake

 

Just pressing the hull down on a primer will result in some fail to fire as the primer doesn't seat fully.  I found that the hard way.  I now have the RCBS die and shell holder in an inexpensive single stage press for de-priming and priming.  Using a proper press and shell holder eliminated fail to fire completely.

I've not had that problem but then I check each one to make sure the primer is fully seated. Have not had the first fail to fire with new primers.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

If you are using a standard measure like lyman 55 (for safeties sake with aluminum hopper)  I use my old graduated powder measure for large 50 plus grain loads, weigh that and then set the lyman to dump the weight of that volume.  For pistols use a lee dipper to fill case to what I want weigh that and set lyman to dump that weight so in my case both.

[German Jim]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:14 AM, Jackalope said:

There is no such thing as "grain volume, volumetric grain, volumetric equivalent", etc.

 

Grains are a measurement of weight, or mass.  

 

Volume is the amount of space in a three-dimensional object.  

 

The amount of powder dropped by a powder measure (which has a three-dimensional chamber of a particular volume) will have a particular weight (as measured on a scale).  However, if you switch from Fg powder to FFFg powder without changing the powder measure, you will certainly drop a different weight from the same volume.  Even if you switch from brand to brand, you may drop different weight.  Two different powders occupying the same volume may not have the same mass.  Two different powders having the same mass may not have the same volume.

 

If you need to fill a given volume (such as black powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), fill the volume and don't worry about the weight or mass.

 

If you need a particular weight (such as smokeless powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), use a scale and don't worry about the volume.

EXACTLY!!

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've always wondered why no one (at least I don't think so) has ever made a brass adjustable powder measure (like the ones used to measure "grains by volume") for Black Powder that just measured volume (C.C.s) period. End of sentence.

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

53 minutes ago, German Jim said:

EXACTLY!!

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've always wondered why no one (at least I don't think so) has ever made a brass adjustable powder measure (like the ones used to measure "grains by volume") for Black Powder that just measured volume (C.C.s) period. End of sentence.

 

This one of several adjustable/sliding powder dispensers. 
 

https://muzzle-loaders.com/products/muzzleloader-brass-powder-measure-120-grains-mz1410?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0-GymZCpggMVlNbICh0JJgqqEAQYAiABEgKCTvD_BwE

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Looking like it might be a long winter from this thread 

 

[Texas Maverick]

On 9/29/2023 at 10:49 PM, Slapshot said:

Maybe this will help. I find it real handy being that I am new to subs or should I call it grey powder since it actually isn't black.

Black Powder Volume to Weight~Conversion Chart.xlsx 17.56 kB · 33 downloads

I am really confused by this chart. I took the new 3F APP and dipped a 4.3 cc dipper plus a .7 cc dipper and it equaled 35 grains on my scale. So I am either reading this chart wrong or my scale is off. Anyway I am trying to get a nice light load using the new BP powder with 7/8 oz shot and my new Load All for just BP usage. Any assistance would be appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

TM

 

TM

[Texas Maverick]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:17 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

35 grains by weight of APP and 7/8 ounce of shot will take down any KD if you do your part. 

So if I am reading the chart correctly you are saying a 3.1 cc dipper of APP 3F should be fine for loading a 12 gauge shell with 7/8 oz shot. Is this correct? I am just starting to load BP and want to get it right the first time. 

 

Thanks

 

TM

[Arkansas Lew]

16 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

So if I am reading the chart correctly you are saying a 3.1 cc dipper of APP 3F should be fine for loading a 12 gauge shell with 7/8 oz shot. Is this correct? I am just starting to load BP and want to get it right the first time. 

 

This is the exact load I use , AA hull ,209 primer,3.1 CC 3F APP, Claybuster wad #CB-1100-12, 7/8 oz #7.5.

Makes lots of smoke and puts them down.

[Texas Maverick]

11 minutes ago, Arkansas Lew said:

This is the exact load I use , AA hull ,209 primer,3.1 CC 3F APP, Claybuster wad #CB-1100-12, 7/8 oz #7.5.

Makes lots of smoke and puts them down.

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.

 

TM

[Sedalia Dave]

34 minutes ago, Texas Maverick said:

So if I am reading the chart correctly you are saying a 3.1 cc dipper of APP 3F should be fine for loading a 12 gauge shell with 7/8 oz shot. Is this correct? I am just starting to load BP and want to get it right the first time. 

 

Thanks

 

TM

Yes. Works great 

 

STS, Gun Club, or Cheddite hull

 

CB0178-12 wad

 

7/8 ounce of shot

 

primer of choice 

 

3cc or 35 grains by weight of 3F APP or Shooters World Black. I use about 20 pounds of wad pressure. 
 

[Texas Maverick]

2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Yes. Works great 

 

STS, Gun Club, or Cheddite hull

 

CB0178-12 wad

 

7/8 ounce of shot

 

primer of choice 

 

3cc or 35 grains by weight of 3F APP or Shooters World Black. I use about 20 pounds of wad pressure. 
 

thanks, will need to recheck my scale. I showed 35 grains after dumping in a 4.3 and .7 cc dipper full. Maybe it wasn't on grains like I thought it was.

 

TM

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Read the good Capt George Baylor's explanation of this (see his recent book), and you will understand. 

 

Black powder has always been measured by volume, since small weights (used for individual loads in firearms) are difficult to weigh in the field.  So, powder measures (which measure volume) are marked with volume measurement lines that show the volume occupied by the corresponding weight of powder.

 

So, from this comes the rather awkward term of "weight by volume".   This gives good results for most real black powders, even today.   Since BP is controlled to about 1.76 grams per cubic centimeter, or roughly 27 grains per CC.

 

The "weight by volume" term really explains what is going on with measuring black powder.   You want to drop into the barrel/chamber the same weight of powder every time, but be able to measure it out quickly in the field.  Thus, the measure carried by BP shooters is marked in grains of weight that the marked volume will drop (approximately).  Those markings are no longer a direct prediction of the weight dropped when the gray powders are measured with them, due to density differences.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited December 12, 2023 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Fallon Kid]

Worth mentioning here. I do BP 12ga (I know we talking 10 ga) and this weekend it took 8 rds to knock down 2 pipes. I load 3 drams of powder and like amount of shot. Wads vary depending on type of shell used IE; STS AA Fed. The pipes were out about 20+ ft and at that distance the shot appeared to spread more so than if using plastic wad. I got away from plastic wads because of ‘snake snot’ in barrel and fussy to clean.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Fussy - NO!   Use a simple technique that works.

After shooting, spray (even pour) some of your water-based cleaner down each barrel and make sure it coats the whole barrel.   Let sit 5-10 minutes while you clean your other BP guns.  Fold up a quarter of a paper towel,dampen it with cleaner, push from breech to muzzle.   Snake skin will come out 100% on the first pass.  And if you use a cleaner with a water soluble soap in it, you leave the barrel protected from most rust, too.   One pass on a couple of barrels - can't get less fussy than that. 

 

I really like PAM to clean with, equal volumes of hydrogen Peroxide, rubbing Alcohol, and Murphys oil soap.  Mix some up once a month, store in a brown bottle (peroxide bottles are perfect).

 

Catch your snake skins in a trash can, rather than on ground or a sink.  Spouse will thank you.

 

ALL BP shot loads ought to be patterned before trusting them on the SASS range.  An old cardboard box at 8 paces will work fine for this.  And you can shoot at least 4 patterns per box if you rotate to a new side.   Lots of powder (like 3 drams) blows central holes in patterns.   I use more shot than powder.  We don't need magnum velocity, just a solid pattern.

 

good luck, GJ

[Sedalia Dave]

15 hours ago, Fallon Kid said:

Worth mentioning here. I do BP 12ga (I know we talking 10 ga) and this weekend it took 8 rds to knock down 2 pipes. I load 3 drams of powder and like amount of shot. Wads vary depending on type of shell used IE; STS AA Fed. The pipes were out about 20+ ft and at that distance the shot appeared to spread more so than if using plastic wad. I got away from plastic wads because of ‘snake snot’ in barrel and fussy to clean.

 

As GJ pointed out clean up is easy. I have rubber stoppers that I put in the muzzle end of the barrels. Stand up and fill with hot tap water mixed with a little Ballistal or Murphy's Oil Soap. Let sit shile I clean everything else and then remove the stoppers and push the fouling out easy peasy.

 

As for your knockdowns, Pattern your shotgun. You are blowing holes in the center of the pattern.  Up the shot charge, Reduce the powder charge, or use a different wad stack.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Don't know if I mentioned it before.  Fiber wads tend to blow holes in the pattern.  I highly suggest some form of good shot cup.  I have found the BP Spitfire wad for 1 Ounce Pay Load to be great.  Regardless, if your shooting APP, there is no need to seat the wad with lots of pressure.  Just get the wad down to the powder.  In Brass hulls you can also use BP 1044 10Ga wads with the petals trimmed back.

 

BIG PLUS ONE fer Garrison Joe on "fussy" clean up.  I like/use/love PAM.  Just use my spray bottle to wet the bore well, wrap a short 12Ga brass brush with a quarter sheet of Blue HD Paper towel (spray with the PAM also).  Three or so passes thru the bore removes all the "Snake Skin."  Oily patch and Done.

[Griff]

I've obviously been doing it wrong for the 37 years I've shot BP thru my shotguns in this game.   I've ALWAYS used AA hulls and plastic shot cup/wads.  First the WAA12R, and since that was discontinued, the Claybuster CB-1138-12.  Clean up is simple, take the bbls off run hot tap water thru the bbls from the breech, push a nylon brush wrapped in a cotton patch thru once, change to a dry patch & lastly an oiled patch.  (Removing the brush at the muzzle end each time to avoid drawing any fouling back thru the bbl).  Only time I've had to make more that one swipe thru the barrels after shooting BP is when I've shot a 3-day match...  You can spend your time at the match cleaning all the time... me, I'll clean once when I get home.  

 

Or... just fire a few smokeless rounds thru after the BP...  (But, I still advise cleaning afterwards).  

 

There are multiple ways to skin a cat... 

[Warden Callaway]

My test results. 

 

[Brasspounder]

On 9/29/2023 at 5:38 PM, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Volume

—Dawg

I like 2 Drams n 1-1/4 oz shot Number 8 , 7 1/2, or 6.  Thats 2 Drams which is a volume measure, about 54 gr VOLUME of normal granulation black powder.  ` A Dram is about 23 grains Volume.  I like to use the "old time" measuring with BP.

If you shoot Pyrodex, RS or P,  just measure it the same way as you would BP......same VOLUME.