How Many Shotgun Reloads In A Match?

[Assassin]

 

I hate to think a "normal" stage is 10-10-4. 

Don't stage writers have any imagination anymore. 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:43 PM, Assassin said:

 

I hate to think a "normal" stage is 10-10-4. 

Don't stage writers have any imagination anymore. 

 

I wouldn’t say ‘normal’ but I think it’s pretty clear that 10-10-4 is ‘typical.’

[Assassin]

49 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I wouldn’t say ‘normal’ but I think it’s pretty clear that 10-10-4 is ‘typical.’

Typical today with the current "drag race" scenarios.

It's what stage writers have become accustomed to writing. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

10 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Typical today with the current "drag race" scenarios.

It's what stage writers have become accustomed to writing. 

True, though I still see 10-10-2, 10-10-6, and 10-10+1-4/2/6 occasionally.

[Whip Assalot]

My thoughts on the original question was, let's say I am at eot and some shotgun fanatic decided to create one of the stages. How many shotshells have you ever needed on your build to finish a stage in a large batch?

That is one of the criteria I was going to use for figuring out how many loops my next shotgun belt should have.

I will say that I am overwhelmed with a responses and all the comments and I will say thank you to everyone who has participated as it gives lots to think about and to consider.

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, dart368 said:

My thoughts on the original question was, let's say I am at eot and some shotgun fanatic decided to create one of the stages. How many shotshells have you ever needed on your build to finish a stage in a large batch?

That is one of the criteria I was going to use for figuring out how many loops my next shotgun belt should have.

I will say that I am overwhelmed with a responses and all the comments and I will say thank you to everyone who has participated as it gives lots to think about and to consider.

I don’t think any major match is going to go beyond 6, maybe 8 at most, including non shotgun knockdowns that can be made up with shotgun.

[Texas Maverick]

On 7/12/2023 at 11:58 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

On those 'hard to fall' KD's,  I normally just pull the trigger harder.

 

..........Widder

 

I heard you just needed to blow harder. LOL

 

TW made me say it.

 

TM

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

On 7/12/2023 at 1:44 PM, dart368 said:

Here is my current set up. I have never gone past more than 6 shells which made me wonder if I needed to have so many.

Nothing wrong with that belt, unless you really want a new one.  If you have less shotgun loops you can get the rifle reloads closer to the center so you don't have to reach so far to one side to get them.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

3 hours ago, dart368 said:

say I am at eot and some shotgun fanatic decided to create one of the stages.

Any major match that had a shotgun fanatic write the stages would lose customers very quickly.  Except for novelty stages that are pre-advertised any match director that had high shotgun count stages would be out of a job.

[SouthwestShooter]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:37 PM, dart368 said:

I am in the market for a shotgun belt to hold my shot shells for matches.

So far, I have not gone over 6 shells in a stage.

What is the most shells you have gone through in a stage?

How many shells should my belt hold?

Do they have shotgun heavy stages at major matches?

Some stages have 6 or 8 so you should consider a belt that holds 10 to be safe. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

One of the clubs I shoot at is normally six shotshells on five of the six stages, plus makeups for misses. One stage is normally nine to thirteen, plus makeups. A Texas Star, plus two to four poppers/aerials, so thirteen plus. With makeups, even sixteen to twenty isn't uncommon. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

We used to have a shotgun only stage in these parts where we would need a dozen or so shells.

 

We have not done that stage in quite a while.

 

I have two shotgun slides on my gunbelt which each hold four rounds. I can't remember when we needed more than six shotgun rounds in a stage in these parts, so my two slides provide plenty of shells, even if I need an extra or two.

 

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

We have a club here in Connecticut  that likes shotgun targets, they even made 10-10-8+ window decals   

 

6 to 8 shotgun per stage at a monthly is normal, at their annual 6,8,10 Shotgun stages, plus make ups.  

It is known to those of us in the neighborhood to bring plenty of shells.  

 

But to the OP, my belt holds 12  and I have a pouch where I keep 4 to 6 more, as I have been known to forget to restock the belt.  

I also wear a separate SG belt that sits just above my gun belt.

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

2 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy

 

We used to have a shotgun only stage in these parts where we would need a dozen or so shells.

 

 

I shot a match in North Dakota some 20+ years ago that had a shotgun only stage - fun, but the setup was VERY unfair and up to the luck of the draw, literally. There were five tables about ten feet apart with two to four shotgun targets at each table. Each table was named/labeled Ten, Jack, Queen, King, Ace. The stage started with the shooter drawing 5 cards from a deck containing just the 10, J, Q, K, A cards, and the positions had to be shot in the order drawn. Starting position was at the Ten table, so if you drew 10, 10, 10, 10, J or 10, J, J, J, J, you were golden, as you only had ten feet to traverse. But if you drew A, 10, A, 10, A, you had forty feet to run before you even shot your first shot, and two hundred feet total to cover, so you were totally screwed. I was only there for the one match, but I bet it never caught on. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:43 PM, Assassin said:

 

I hate to think a "normal" stage is 10-10-4. 

Don't stage writers have any imagination anymore. 

 

I hate to think people actually equate odd round counts with imagination.

If a stage writer is interjecting weird counts to add variety to their stage - I would offer a guess they likely lack imagination.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I hate to think people actually equate odd round counts with imagination.

If a stage writer is interjecting weird counts to add variety to their stage - I would offer a guess they likely lack imagination.

We once had a club president who wrote stages with 3 or 5 shotgun targets.  These favored '97 shooters and he was one of them.  I just brought a '97 with me for those matches and never complained.  It is hard enough to get people to write stages and one should accept what they find.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

We once had a club president who wrote stages with 3 or 5 shotgun targets.  These favored '97 shooters and he was one of them.  I just brought a '97 with me for those matches and never complained.  It is hard enough to get people to write stages and one should accept what they find.

Any Stage Writer - Match Director creating stages that blatantly advantage/ disadvantage ANY group should immediately be removed from the position.

Not complaining is complicit agreement with the action.

 

I do not care how "hard" it is to get folks to write stages - I don't care that folks are volunteers or not - shooters should NEVER silently accept whatever gruel is placed in front of them.

Accepting garbage perpetuates getting more garbage.

If more shooters were willing to talk with their feet - eventually clubs would either fail or make the changes necessary to provide a product that their shooters actually want and enjoy. 

And no one would have to "accept" what they find.

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I have a pretty forgiving attitude, Creeker.  At the matches with the odd number of shotgun targets I just brought a '97 and joined the favored shooters.  I didn't shoot a '97 enough anyway and had fun.  Conflict in a club is harmful.  I chose to enjoy the matches as I found them.  After our state match in September I'm going to shoot '97s the rest of the year.  However, when I am match director there are not going to be odd-numbers of shotgun targets.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 minute ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I have a pretty forgiving attitude, Creeker.  At the matches with the odd number of shotgun targets I just brought a '97 and joined the favored shooters.

And that's fine - but what about the folks who don't own a 97?

What about the folks who visit your club from out of town (and are unaware that they need a 97 to enjoy a level playing field)?

 

I'm not telling you anything you don't already know - but sometimes going along to get along is much worse for a club than conflict.

A GOOD match director writes for EVERY participant at their match.

Young and old - BP and smokeless - 97/ 87/ SxS - Gunfighter/ Duelist and Supported - Tall and short - Lefty and Righty - 1st event shooter and 30 year veteran.

 

I don't get to shoot for free; I pay for ammo, gasoline, lodging (at away shoots), breakfast AND match fees.

If I paid $20 to go to dinner - I would expect to receive food prepared correctly that I would enjoy.  Not whatever unthawed, past its expiration date gruel they happened to throw together.

 

If I pay $20 to my barber - I expect a quality haircut that is pleasing to my eye and is what I desired.  Not a reverse mohawk and one shaved eyebrow because thats all the effort they care to expend.

 

If I pay $20 to get my car washed - I expect them to put in the effort to do the job to the best of their abilities.  I wouldn't appreciate dirty stagnant water, only washing the drivers side and being dried off by sandpaper chamois.

 

So why on Earth should I pay that same $20 to shoot a monthly event and "accept" whatever half assed poorly written garbage is placed in front of me?

Because they are "volunteers"?

Because it's hard to find stagewriters?

 

I don't care - I'm not that forgiving.

I would rather see the restaurant fold.

The barber unemployed.

The carwash closed.

And the CAS club fail.

 

When we fail to hold people accountable - when we subsidize poor performance - when we make excuses and allowances for substandard behavior - WE are to blame for that behavior continuing.

 

Never EXPECT to get get better than you REQUEST.

Never ACCEPT less than you DESERVE.

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

And before anyone questions if Im just jabbering or if I walk the walk...

 

I have left monthly shoots after a single stage because of the match or the atmosphere.

 

I have left at least two state championship shoots after the first day and not returned for the second because of the stages. 

 

I have left an annual event on side match day prior to placing a single round down range because of the match setup and behavior of the clubs representatives.

 

I refuse to participate in matches that I don't want to be at.  If more did the same - things might change.

[Assassin]

4 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I hate to think people actually equate odd round counts with imagination.

If a stage writer is interjecting weird counts to add variety to their stage - I would offer a guess they likely lack imagination.

8 sg and 10 pistol still shoots same time as 10-10-4, 10 rifle 10 pistol no sg can be written to shoot same time as 10-10-4. A gun doesn't have to be loaded with 10 rounds in order to make stages run in similar times. Try one pistol loaded with 5 and second pistol loaded with 1 for the last "kill shot" 10 rifle 4 sg. The next monthly at the Border Vigilantes will not have any 10-10-4 stages and will be more fun than the same ole "that's how we've always done it" 10-10-4 stages. I went to a local match last month and they had a "stand and deliver" stage, I have no desire to go back. That's the laziest stage writing possible.

[Whip Assalot]

After all of this great information, I am going to go with a belt that holds 10 rounds  total set up in pairs for my side by side shotgun.

 

Thank you for everyone who participated. I am going to stop following this thread now.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

2 hours ago, dart368 said:

After all of this great information, I am going to go with a belt that holds 10 rounds  total set up in pairs for my side by side shotgun.

 

Thank you for everyone who participated. I am going to stop following this thread now.

My apologies for hijacking your thread

[Griff]

41 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

My apologies for hijacking your thread

JMNSHO, but what you said needed saying.  

[Whip Assalot]

47 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

My apologies for hijacking your thread

I appreciate it. I know how these things go sometimes 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Going with the 10-10-4+ idea, at a 6 stage match, that's 24 rounds.   Since shotshells go 25 to a box, I always bring 2 boxes of shells.

Let's say that you average 2 misses per shotgun per stage, 6x6 is 36, so two boxes is still enough.

A 10 stage match would use 40 to 60.   A 12 stage match, 48 to 72  So for a "big" match, generally bring 4 boxes of shells.

I doubt you'll find a shotgun belt with more than 25 loops for ammo, and even that might be hard to do.   I basically load up my belt before stage 1, and refill after stage 3, whether is needs it or not.  Sometimes I even reload every two stages, just so I don't fumble looking for shells.

Sometimes I don't even use a belt, I carry my shotshells in a loose pouch.

Good luck.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 7/16/2023 at 10:47 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don’t think any major match is going to go beyond 6, maybe 8 at most, including non shotgun knockdowns that can be made up with shotgun.

I once went to a match where all of the stages were 10-10-4+ variations with 2 exceptions.   One stage was 10 shotgun, and nothing else.   The next stage was 10-10-2+   I thought it was fun.

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I once went to a match where all of the stages were 10-10-4+ variations with 2 exceptions.   One stage was 10 shotgun, and nothing else.   The next stage was 10-10-2+   I thought it was fun.

I like variety too, but I’m not sure I would want a 10 shotgun stage at a major match. Monthly, sure, but at a major match anyone with 10 or fewer shotgun loops is disadvantaged. With 12 loops shooting a 10 shotgun stage would have me wishing for at least 2 more shells.

[Lucky R. K.]

I have no idea why most of you go to a shoot. I go to pull the trigger of my guns, all my guns, as many times as I can. Since you are limited to 10 with rifle and pistol all that is left is the shotgun. The more the better.

Just my opinion.

Lucky 

[Three Foot Johnson]

2 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

I have no idea why most of you go to a shoot. I go to pull the trigger of my guns, all my guns, as many times as I can. Since you are limited to 10 with rifle and pistol all that is left is the shotgun. The more the better.

Just my opinion.

Lucky 

If a match consists of 6 stages of ten rifle, ten pistol, but only four shotgun... you don't go?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Writing stages is not an easy thing; especially if the expectation is to please everybody with everything -- or else.   More realistic goals might be to assure fair competition, i.e.,  by avoiding penalty traps, hazards, spotting/officiating difficulties, overtly strenuous or difficult scenarios, and assuring that everyone faces the same level of challenge.  Stages will always vary in difficulty or length, and appeal to different peoples' tastes.  Competition shooters, ought to have the ability to work out how to shoot different stages and handle what comes, without grousing and walking away. 

 

We surely can decide which matches we personally choose to shoot, based on preferences and good or bad experiences.  But looking broadly, we might also keep in-mind that CAS clubs and their events need our support and participation to be successful, and our sport needs the clubs and matches to survive and hopefully grow.  Sometimes, it benefits us collectively to take some of the bad with the good.  

There are no hard rules governing stage round counts, to my knowledge -- only traditions or customs.  Personally (and IMO), I enjoy working out how to shoot different stages.  Competitively handling varying difficulty and unusual round counts or reloads is just a part of our game and pretty much every other shooting sport. 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

15 hours ago, Lucky R. K. said:

I have no idea why most of you go to a shoot. I go to pull the trigger of my guns, all my guns, as many times as I can. Since you are limited to 10 with rifle and pistol all that is left is the shotgun. The more the better.

Just my opinion.

Lucky 

I go to engage in a shooting competition; utilizing well placed steel and well written stages.  

More does not (necessarily) equate to better - Variety does not (necessarily) equate to more interesting - 10, 10, 4 does not (necessarily) equate to boring and 6, 12, 8 does not (necessarily) equate to something novel.

 

If all I wanted to do was pull my trigger as many times as possible - I could go to a practice range.

 

There is a lot more to writing good stages and creating interesting matches than needlessly changing the round count or inserting a convoluted sequence or requiring shooting from seven diferent positions.

 

 

[Lucky R. K.]

21 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

If a match consists of 6 stages of ten rifle, ten pistol, but only four shotgun... you don't go?

If you read the post, you saw that is not what I said. In short, I said that the shotgun is the only gun to possibly let you get EXTRA trigger time on a stage.

Lucky 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:43 PM, Assassin said:

 

I hate to think a "normal" stage is 10-10-4. 

Don't stage writers have any imagination anymore. 

 

 

I suggested this once...

 

At the beep, pull level to "hang" the dummy in the noose.   Leave gallows and move to position 2.  Draw knife and stab dummy.   Put knife back in sheath and take rifle from next to dummy and engage 10 rifle targets.  Move to position 3.   Pick up rope and "lasso" the horse.  Just throwing it at the horse prop is enough.   Move to position 4.  Draw knife and stab dummy, leaving knife in dummy.  Take pocket pistol from table next to dummy, (pretend you took it from his pocket) and shoot the two "bank tellers" twice.   Pick up money bag and run to position 5.  Light fuse on real stick of dynamite and drop down very deep hole to allow timer to record final time.

Nobody wanted to try it.  

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I shot a side match once where you shot quarter sticks of dynamite launched by a thrower often used for soda cans.  I shot the dynamite with a fully-choked shotgun with a heavy game load.  The dynamite exploded very effectively knocking off my hat, hearing protection and safety glasses.  I was impressed and will never again step on a range where dynamite is any part of the match.